Retire NeverTrump

 

I was one of the more persistent and vocal NeverTrump people on Ricochet leading up to the election so I think I have the street cred to write this.

It’s time to retire the NeverTrump label.  It was a useful label during the election cycle because it was a clear way on the center-right to identity as people who had made the still reasonable decision not to vote for Trump.  However, I see a variety of problems with its continued use, including:

  1. It signals that you are inflexible and closed-minded.  By persisting in using the label, you’re telling others that no matter what Trump does in his first administration, you won’t vote for him if he runs again in 2020.
  2. It’s already being used for virtual signaling and moral preening here on Ricochet. No one likes that sort of behavior.  I continue to reject the argument that not voting for Trump was de facto morally preening self-righteousness, but now I’m actually seeing it being specifically used for that purpose . I was  clearly wrong about that at least in certain cases.
  3. It’s an unproductive and unnecessary tribal division for the center-right and Ricochet.  I also don’t like the idea of staking out a position where I’m telling people who voted for Trump that I stand waiting to judge them when Trump does something silly or awful and we know that will happen.  I also don’t like the behavior that I’m seeing on the Trump voting side essentially reading me out of the center-right because I didn’t vote for Trump.  It should be self-evident that this is bad behavior not just from an interpersonal standpoint, but as a political one as well.

I’m back to using the term classical liberal as my primary self-label. NeverTrump served a useful and honorable purpose during the election cycle, but I can’t see any usefulness for it now.  I still think he’ll, shall we say, underperform as president, but I could be wrong and end up voting for him in 2020 if he decides to run again. That alone makes the NeverTrump label a poor fit for me and it should for you also.

(She’s gone, right? Gone gone? We’re done with her? Right? Right!?!)

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  1. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    OmegaPaladin:@skipsul

    In fact, many on both sides flat out left Ricochet because of the acrimony.

    That was definitely part of my reason for leaving. Part of it was a general feeling of disgust with politics and how it was affecting people – me certainly included.

    I left for many of the same reasons and I absolutely did not want to be around here if Trump lost.  I re-upped for a month to write my mea culpa.  I will decide in a few weeks if I want to extend.

    We have to decide if Ricochet is a discussion forum or not.  I have no interest in being part of a conservative community that does not tolerate dissent.

    • #31
  2. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    Yes until 2018 or at the latest 2020 when it will be resurrected because by then it is obvious to all that it was the only correct and sane position.  Nixon and Eisenhower won elections too but it didn’t make them Conservatives.

    • #32
  3. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    A-Squared:

    OmegaPaladin:@skipsul

    In fact, many on both sides flat out left Ricochet because of the acrimony.

    That was definitely part of my reason for leaving. Part of it was a general feeling of disgust with politics and how it was affecting people – me certainly included.

    I left for many of the same reasons and I absolutely did not want to be around here if Trump lost. I re-upped for a month to write my mea culpa. I will decide in a few weeks if I want to extend.

    We have to decide if Ricochet is a discussion forum or not. I have no interest in being part of a conservative community that does not tolerate dissent.

    I’m glad both of you came back.  There are others I miss and wish could come back too.

    • #33
  4. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    No, by all means maintain the label.  Self-righteous preening looks good on a conservative.

    Those of us who came around to vote for Trump, somewhat reluctantly perhaps but inevitably, realize that self-righteous preening is less important than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House.

    Those of us who did not come around to vote for Trump, I cannot understand.  What possibly could be more important than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House?

    • #34
  5. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    dukenaltum:Nixon and Eisenhower won elections too but it didn’t make them Conservatives.

    And W, too.

    But Never Trump had at its core a self-righteousness that should not be part of conservative thinking.  There was nothing more important in 2016 America than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House..  Any conservative whose personal pride and feelings are more important than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House should reflect on today’s date and what it means.

    We sacrifice for our country in many ways. I gave up my pride and voted for Trump, whose last 10 days have been remarkably Presidential.  Had others done the same, Kelly Ayotte would have been re-elected to the Senate.

     

    • #35
  6. KC Mulville Inactive
    KC Mulville
    @KCMulville

    I’m probably just exposing how cocky I am, but I don’t give a damn if anyone calls me a NeverTrumper. I didn’t vote for him, but I’m going to treat him the same way I would have treated Hillary – one proposal and one action at a time. If Trump pushes for controlling the border, I’m for him. If he pushes for mass deportation  of millions, I’m against it. If he proposes a new trade deal, fine, let me see it before I judge it. If he proposes a tariff that I think will backfire, I’m against it.

    That’s how this country should work, i.e., purely transactional. If Trump continually pushes smart, conservative policies, it’ll earn him the benefit of the doubt. But nothing more.

    I’m not going to put away my political interests just to show deference to anyone. I’m not a tribalist. Those who do are just sheep, in my opinion.

    • #36
  7. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    RyanFalcone: We all need to grow up and focus on problems and solutions not enemies and hurt feelings.

    Some of the problems are enemies: “Progressives” who want a corrupted electoral process, a massive nanny state and political correctness.

    The demonstrations and riots we have seen the last couple of days are only the beginning. The people who are planning them and funding the organizers won’t stop. The mass marching and chanting – and the wrecking and burning – are as exhilarating today as they were for the Klan in its heyday and for the Reds and the SA in Weimar Germany.

    While a sound police response is necessary, it is not sufficient. That will take skilled persuasion on a large scale. Apropos of nothing, speaking of persuasion, Donald Trump got elected by crushing the Clinton machine and the Bush machine and flipping states that haven’t voted (R) for a long time. And he did it for about five bucks a vote, which is extraordinary. No doubt he got lucky, it couldn’t possibly be because of any ability he might have.

    @publius‘ three points are all well taken. A little time for [CoC] and moaning, a little time for the hangovers of all kinds to fade. There’s a lot of work to do.

    A request for @publius and the old guard: A gentle rebuke to Ricochetti exhibiting closed mindedness, virtue signaling and divisiveness about Trump coming from other exNeverTrumpers would probably be better received coming from you guys.

     

    • #37
  8. Brian McMenomy Inactive
    Brian McMenomy
    @BrianMcMenomy

    I was NeverTrump, and I approve this message.

    • #38
  9. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    The label may go, and I think should, but the taint won’t go away with it.  The NT crowd either placed their own pride above the needs of the country, or displayed absurdly poor judgement in evaluating the relative threats of the two teams, or simply couldn’t accept the binary reality of the contest.

    That the vast majority of NTs are expressing their relief and pleasure at the witch’s defeat only highlights the cognitive defects that prevented them from effectively voting against her, leaving the rest of us to carry their water.

    The taint will have to be worn off by time, and evidence of better judgement in the future.  While I don’t think a reading-out is appropriate, if even possible, there’s no question that NT’s opinions will be less trusted for the near- to medium-term.

    • #39
  10. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    Doctor Robert: But Never Trump had at its core a self-righteousness that should not be part of conservative thinking. There was nothing more important in 2016 America than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House..

    Ah no. Never Trump was a principled and intellectually coherent stand against a demagogue and his irrational movement  that was/is not conservative in any way while George W. Bush by any sane criteria was conservative.

    Some would sensibly point out that Trump and a majority of his policies are clearly on the Left and his business history has more than a hint of  criminal activity.

    Populism is a tactic of the Left.     You need to wait a bit before you engage in apotheosis. Trump beat a corrupt old woman at the head of a spent movement.  Good for him but it isn’t the same as leading.   Mediocrity is the best future you can expect.

    • #40
  11. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Phil Turmel: The taint will have to be worn off by time, and evidence of better judgement in the future. While I don’t think a reading-out is appropriate, if even possible, there’s no question that NT’s opinions will be less trusted for the near- to medium-term.

    Now keep in mind that if people who didn’t vote for Trump turn out to be right about him, you’ll see them turning this very argument on the people who voted for Trump.  That’s the thrust of my 3rd point. Be careful what you wish for on all of this everyone.

    • #41
  12. J. Martin Rogers Member
    J. Martin Rogers
    @

    KC Mulville:I’m probably just exposing how cocky I am, but I don’t give a damn if anyone calls me a NeverTrumper. I didn’t vote for him, but I’m going to treat him the same way I would have treated Hillary – one proposal and one action at a time. If Trump pushes for controlling the border, I’m for him. If he pushes for mass deportation of millions, I’m against it. If he proposes a new trade deal, fine, let me see it before I judge it. If he proposes a tariff that I think will backfire, I’m against it.

    That’s how this country should work, i.e., purely transactional. If Trump continually pushes smart, conservative policies, it’ll earn him the benefit of the doubt. But nothing more.

    I’m not going to put away my political interests just to show deference to anyone. I’m not a tribalist. Those who do are just sheep, in my opinion.

    BINGO!  We have a winner…  The talk is over, it’s action time now.  He has Congress, make something good happen.  If he does I will proudly vote for his re-election.  If he doesn’t, well, I’ll pick the flag back up.  He didn’t earn my vote with his words, I hope to G-D, he does now with his actions.

    • #42
  13. Matt Y. Inactive
    Matt Y.
    @MattY

    Doctor Robert:

    But Never Trump had at its core a self-righteousness that should not be part of conservative thinking. There was nothing more important in 2016 America than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House.. Any conservative whose personal pride and feelings are more important than keeping criminal leftists out of the White House should reflect on today’s date and what it means.

    (A) No it doesn’t, not necessarily. Sometimes the argument and antagonism got so heated that it came across that way, which is unfortunate. It was just an attempt to be morally consistent and principled (for example, one argument was, if I thought Bill Clinton’s character disqualified him from office, I shouldn’t be supporting Trump, because that would make me a hypocrite). Plus it postulated that there is an objective, as opposed to a relative, standard that any presidential candidate should pass in order to be acceptable, and neither candidate passed that standard. And many who voted for Trump have their own version of moral preening or virtue signaling, as seen right here. Apparently only you care about stopping criminals from entering the White House. Ridiculous.

    (B) “There was nothing more important…” This part is question-begging. The very argument NeverTrumpers made was that there are more important things than winning this election. Like, if you’re Christian, many Christians believed that supporting Trump would badly damage the witness of American evangelicals, and the gospel is more important than politics.

     

    • #43
  14. Matt Y. Inactive
    Matt Y.
    @MattY

    I agree the NeverTrump label should be retired, at least until 2019/2020 when people are making the decision whether to re-nominate or re-elect him, if he runs again. It’ll be relevant then. I was NeverTrump, I have no problem with referring to that as my past stance. But from here on, I’ll support him if he does something good, and oppose him if he does something wrong. I still believe he’s unqualified, but that’s now irrelevant: He will be my President. I expect him to do more things that I oppose than the average Republican president would, but the jury is out on that, so I’ll wait and see.

    • #44
  15. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Matt Y.: (B) “There was nothing more important…” This part is question-begging. The very argument NeverTrumpers made was that there are more important things than winning this election. Like, if you’re Christian, many Christians believed that supporting Trump would badly damage the witness of American evangelicals, and the gospel is more important than politics.

    I wish I could like your comment more than once. Yes. This.

    Look, the United States government and the President of the United States in general have obtained way too much power and have taken up way too much real estate in our collective minds.  The federal government should be on the margins of our lives just like D.C. is on the margin of our borders.

    I’d like a day where federal elections are a passing interest because they don’t mean as much to us as they do now, but I know that’s unlikely to happen in my lifetime.

    • #45
  16. Curt North Inactive
    Curt North
    @CurtNorth

    I hope some of the acrimony I’m seeing here is therapy, and I hope it’s also having a healing affect and not simply ramping folks up.  I was a reluctant Trumper who became more and more enthusiastic as Trump seemed to grown into the position he was in, the nominee for POTUS of the Republican Party.

    I’ve had my arguments and debates on here, but seriously it’s time to move on, let’s forget and forgive.  We have a mess to clean up, a swamp to drain, and a lots of wrongs to right.

    • #46
  17. Bill Nelson Inactive
    Bill Nelson
    @BillNelson

    As a former #NeverEverTrump, I recognize reality, and now, like others, start clean slate and hope Trump does become a very good president.

    On the news last night I watched one of his supporters talk about a specific issue and say “If Trump was smart, he would….” which is what they always said just before a twitter blowout.

    So now, we must say “I do expect Trump to take the right course.” And that, today, is my expectation. And I do not root this expectation in any past events of behavior.

    So, I guess now I am a “Go Trump”er.

    And I am not going to say “that can change quickly”, no micro-aggressions.

     

    • #47
  18. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    Publius: Now keep in mind that if people who didn’t vote for Trump turn out to be right about him, you’ll see them turning this very argument on the people who voted for Trump. That’s the thrust of my 3rd point. Be careful what you wish for on all of this everyone.

    You can be completely right that Trump is the evil, racist tyrant proclaimed by the most intense of the NT crowd.  Without an evil, racist team to go along with him, and a republican-friendly evil, racist media to enable him, such a man is still constrained to be less evil than Clinton, her team, and the real media machine.  That’s the judgement flaw that must be redeemed.  Those who cling to that flawed judgement in future cycles will not be trusted by the rest of us.

    • #48
  19. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    I did not vote for Trump and could easily be described as Never Trump.  (I was super never.)

    However, like several other posters on this thread, I realize he’s president.  I don’t recant my opposition to him in the election, but I am also not out there protesting.  That’s absolutely wrong-headed.  In fact, I would love, love, love for President Trump to prove my (very much in good faith) judgements about him wrong.

    Why?

    I love my country and want the best for her.

    (Is that moral preening?)

    I will give him a chance.  Contrary to what Democrats say, I gave President Obama a chance, too.  I hope he does better than President Obama.

     

    • #49
  20. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    I agree. I was a NeverTrump from the very beginning, but he is now the President-elect, and we have to give him an opportunity to prove himself. My stance going into the next months will be “Trust but verify.” I am pleased at Hillary’s defeat, and a future that will see  Clinton Inc. disappear into obscurity. I believe that we have to hold Trump to his promises, be unafraid to call him on it when and if  he fails to keep his word, and make sure our representatives in Congress keep the pressure on him. As with any politician, he will need to be watched.

    • #50
  21. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Phil Turmel: That’s the judgement flaw that must be redeemed.

    I don’t think demanding redemptive behavior is a way to win friends and influence people on this one and it’s poor political strategy if the goal is to gain as much support for a Trump administration as possible.

    Phil Turmel: Those who cling to that flawed judgement in future cycles will not be trusted by the rest of us.

    Speaking of flawed judgement, you have the other end of the what I expect was a normal distribution on this whole central-right Trump question telling us that Trump is some nigh-messianic figure. We heard this from the center-left with Obama and it will be just as wrong this time for Trump as it was for Obama. Will you be invoking a similar flawed judgement clause to revoke their credibility?

    The best strategy for everyone is to just calm down, enjoy the fact that we don’t have another Clinton administration, do a lot of praying for the country, and see how this plays out.

    • #51
  22. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    dukenaltum: Populism is a tactic of the Left

    That’s nonsense. It presumes that governing elites are, naturally, right wing. Trump’s win was a populist uprising against the elites of both parties – who often have more in common (including contempt for their voters) then they do with their putative bases.

    He drew more crossover votes than a Republican presidential candidate has for a long time. While the Left is whining again about vote suppression, the main thing that “suppressed” Democrat votes was Hillary.

    • #52
  23. Mark Wilson Inactive
    Mark Wilson
    @MarkWilson

    Publius: I’m back to using the term classical liberal as my primary self-label. NeverTrump served a useful and honorable purpose during the election cycle, but I can’t see any usefulness for it now.

    Yep.

    • #53
  24. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    Ontheleftcoast: He drew more crossover votes than a Republican presidential candidate has for a long time

    Do you have a source for this?

    According to this collection of exit polls, Trump won 9% of Democrats and 48% of independents.

    Among Democrats, Trump did better than Romney (who got 7% of Dems but 50% of independents), but worse than any other Republican nominee on that page (which goes back to 1972.)  Most recently, McCain got 10% of Dems and Bush got 11% of Dems both times.  McCain did worse than Trump among Independents (44%) and W did about the same (47% and 48%).

    • #54
  25. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    Phil Turmel:The label may go, and I think should, but the taint won’t go away with it. The NT crowd either placed their own pride above the needs of the country, or displayed absurdly poor judgement in evaluating the relative threats of the two teams, or simply couldn’t accept the binary reality of the contest.

    That the vast majority of NTs are expressing their relief and pleasure at the witch’s defeat only highlights the cognitive defects that prevented them from effectively voting against her, leaving the rest of us to carry their water.

    The taint will have to be worn off by time, and evidence of better judgement in the future. While I don’t think a reading-out is appropriate, if even possible, there’s no question that NT’s opinions will be less trusted for the near- to medium-term.

    This is the type of arrogant garbage that will destroy any good thing that would’ve come from Trump’s win. Who are you to call anyone else prideful? Time for all of us to act like adults. I swear, some of you are Democrats that have infiltrated our ranks solely to create divisiveness. Without NeverTrumpers, Trump never even thinks of cleaning his act up in the final weeks. Without NT’s like me who held our noses and did vote for him, HRC is gloating right now.

    • #55
  26. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    Publius:

    Phil Turmel: That’s the judgement flaw that must be redeemed.

    I don’t think demanding redemptive behavior is a way to win friends and influence people on this one and it’s poor political strategy if the goal is to gain as much support for a Trump administration as possible.

    Well, I meant it in the sense that this is what I forecast for Reluctant Trumpers’ thought processes, not so much as an explicit call to repentance.

    Phil Turmel: Those who cling to that flawed judgement in future cycles will not be trusted by the rest of us.

    Speaking of flawed judgement, you have the other end of the what I expect was a normal distribution on this whole central-right Trump question telling us that Trump is some nigh-messianic figure. We heard this from the center-left with Obama and it will be just as wrong this time for Trump as it was for Obama. Will you be invoking a similar flawed judgement clause to revoke their credibility?

    I’m not sure I understood this part.  Are you attributing to me an opinion of Trump as a “nigh-messianic figure”?  If you review my wall, you’ll find variations of “orange buffoon” as my median opinion of Trump over the past year.

    If you mean “do I apply similar thought processes to the EverTrump crowd?”, the answer is yes.  The difference is their position is subject to test under a Trump administration, where the NT contention that Hilary wouldn’t be too bad (or maybe even desirable) shall forever be speculative.  (Yay!)

    The best strategy for everyone is to just calm down, enjoy the fact that we don’t have another Clinton administration, do a lot of praying for the country, and see how this plays out.

    Indeed.

    • #56
  27. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Phil Turmel: Are you attributing to me an opinion of Trump as a “nigh-messianic figure”?

    No, but we’ve seen it here on Ricochet and in the broader media. “In Trump we trust”

    • #57
  28. Richard Hanchett Inactive
    Richard Hanchett
    @iDad

    In other words – “Forget what we did, forget what we said, and stop calling us what we proudly called ourselves.”

    • #58
  29. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    skipsul:

    Fake John/Jane Galt:Why stop now? The #NeverTrumpers maintained their cause to destroy Trump after the nominee process was completed. They continued their efforts to get Hillary elected and harass his supporters through out the general election. Given their passion to destroy Trump and his supporters, I can only assume they continue to plan to undermine him at ever turn. So why should they hide now? Own that stuff. It is only honest for them to acknowledge their allegiance to the opposition. No reason for them to hide now.

    The bold text is painting with a broad brush. Like with the Trump supporters (reluctant and otherwise), most of the NT people were actually quiet about it because they didn’t want to get involved in the acrimony.

    In fact, many on both sides flat out left Ricochet because of the acrimony.

    That battle is over, and just as @publius is offering to bury his hatchet, the rest should do the same.

    The election battle is over, let’s give ourselves a well earned rest – both sides – and set about consolidating things.

    What I know is during the membership drive I introduced a handful of people to Ricochet, even bought a membership for one.  All left citing the over the top anti Trump rhetoric. Those folk would have been good additions to the membership but now that opportunity is lost.

    • #59
  30. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    iDad:In other words – “Forget what we did, forget what we said, and stop calling us what we proudly called ourselves.”

    Nope.  I’m fine with what I did and said.  I stand by what I said and how I voted. I can’t do anything about what you call me, but I can certainly control how I describe myself.

    I’m also fine with being NeverTrump. I just don’t see any use for it going forward for the reasons that I articulated in my original posting.

    • #60
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