The Many Faces of America

 

I have traveled around quite a bit in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and China, while living in the Caucuses region and I have met and talked with upper middle class Iranians and extremist Muslims in my work as a missionary.  It is from this travel and personal experience that I write the following on the way that world perceives the United States. 

America is Hydra:

If you are not on board with America completely, and I mean completely, it is very easy to resent America.  American culture, people, business and military are insidious and often seem omnipresent.  Even if you successfully resist America politically, you turn around for one minute and you find that American popular culture and technology is undermining you.  You cut off one head and the American Hydra produces two more heads for you to fight. 

Take for instance the Republic of Georgia in 2005 George W Bush visited the country and the main highway into the Capital is still named after him.  After his visit American cars flooded the Georgian market as it suddenly became really easy to ship used and rebuilt cars here.  It was not only the car market though, fast food chains started opening up, business investment grew dramatically and News outlets in America suddenly began to invest in and train Georgian media in news and business.

In short time America transformed the Georgian economy and built up the pro-western regime here.  By contrast Russia was trying to do the same for little South Ossetia a part of Georgia that the Russian stole in the early 90s.  This little territory under the protection of Russia shrank in population, economic output and birthrates.  The more Russia poured into the effort the worst the situation in South Ossetia became.  A year after the war in 2008 Georgia had completely recovered, entire towns rebuilt, roads improved, businesses restored.  In that same amount of time the Russians rebuilt exactly three buildings in one town in South Ossetia.  The contrast was painful for the Russians and instructive to others in the region.

America had to make no major policy efforts to build up Georgia, no major bills had to pass Congress and the US media barely noticed our efforts in that country.  Which is how America really works all around the world.  We are able to constantly help our friends, frustrate our enemies and increase our influence without even trying very hard. 

America’s many heads means that price for resisting America is very high.  If you look around at our main enemies in the world you see that their media is tightly controlled, their cultures are closed off and in many cases their government policy is based in a large part on deception.  One of the reasons for this is that the influence of America is so great that to open up to the world at all opens you up to America.  Once you do that there is not stopping American influence from “corrupting” the people and undermining the regime. 

It is also part of the story that the common people see this as an American phenomena.  Western Europe can have this effect too but many people will point out that they have this effect because they are like America and are allies with America.   So if you are a political enemy of the United States, if you are a cultural traditionalist or if you just like your culture to go its own way and without constantly defining itself against and in contrast to America you want America to fail to one degree or another.  Opposing America is exhausting and nothing that has gone before in world history really prepares you for it.

America is a Talisman of Freedom, Success and Hope:

I hope you can see why America can seem like Hydra but it also needs to mentioned that America is more than that, it is also a Talisman.  I use Talisman instead of symbol because often non-Americans give America or just the idea of America certain magical or at least near magical powers.

America represents political freedom to people but also as a benchmark of success that they measure their own societies against.  Not only that but America provides hope to millions of people in tough situations around the world.  The last part is probably one of the most extraordinary things about America that a powerful country like America might actually help people that just need help is something people find very hard to believe is real and yet they can point to America acting in this way.  Because of that America will often give hope to people in their fight and that hope can sustain movements in vital ways.

By being this Talisman America challenges the core political and often cultural arrangements in a society.  Let’s take Iran/Persia for a moment.  In this historical context I will be referring to Persia and Persians instead of Iranians.  Persians were regional leaders politically, culturally and militarily for centuries.  Persians grew accustomed to this position and even in times of weakness they assumed they would return to their dominion soon.  In the 19th century as Persia and their traditional rivals the Ottoman’s collapsed Imperial Russia moved into dominance and this was taken in stride. Imperial Russia was understandable, their system non-threatening and their dominance due to a temporary military supremacy.  Later however as America and its client state of Israel took over and here was system that threatened everything the Persians knew about State craft.  The government was run by the people, their was no state religion or ideology that drove a ruling class and they were willing to trade with anyone.  What made it all worse was the America not only threw out everything the Persians knew about state craft and policy they were successful in every way.  Wealth, military power, influence, cultural achievements, sports, Americans achieved at everything and the only things Americans weren’t good at were things that Americans did not seem to care about.  This was a challenge that any government that ruled Persia, now Iran, would have to deal with.  The culture of their people would demand that they challenge America in some way. 

One thing that I have learned as missionary is that people learn new things when they are modeled.  It is very hard to get a concept that is new to a culture across to them without modeling it.  People have trouble imagining things they have never seen before but once they see it they do imagine what that would look like.  In many cultures their centuries of experience have taught them that for success you need strong, dictator like rule, an aggressive military, suppression of dissent and the like.  America challenges all these assumptions in disruptive ways and provoke the imaginations of the people in ways their rulers dislike.

In many traditionally dominant cultures America is a grave challenge.  Persians and others like them know a few things.  They know they are healthier, smarter, braver, stronger, and possess a deeper and superior culture to the Americans.  I mean have you met the typical American that travels around the world?  They are over weight, know little history, loud, rude, arrogant and often have a do-gooder attitude like they can fix things that are broken just because they are Americans.  Even in the way that American walk you tell how arrogant and ignorant they are.  What have Americans suffered?  What have they had to endure?  Did they have to survive the Mongols?  Where were they when the plagues came and devastated the region?  How many times did they have to rebuild their culture after conquest?  And yet… and yet Americans are successful and we are not.  It is question that eats at the soul of many people.

This leads people in many cultures and different countries to question their rulers and their systems of government.  Americans are losers and yet they succeed.  If we (whatever race or culture they are) had the same chance as Americans would we not surpass them in everything?  What are we doing to hold ourselves back or what are the clever Americans doing to hold us back and hold us down I wonder?

I think it is not impossible to see how the very success and presence of America on the world stage is a threat to dictators and oppressive regimes around the world. 

The Practical Effects:

One major practical aspect is that it is very hard to withdraw from the world.  It would not be hard to stop being a source of hope for the oppressed.  That is fairly easy and would be a great boon to the people that hate us the most.  Dictators all over the world would rejoice to know that Americans will never interfere with them and their oppression.  We also could withdraw some of our presence from the world and cede more space to our adversaries.   So no real problem for us so far.  But if we want to left alone and we really want people to stop hating us and looking for ways to oppose we have to start failing.

We have to curtail our culture, clamp down on our entertainment industry, severely restrict our military and even better shrink it by scrapping most of the navy.  Then we need to have a stagnating economy or perhaps a shrinking one.  We do all that and people all over the world will stop looking at America as a threat and will stop looking for ways to oppose us.  People would then take us seriously if we were to say, “If you leave us alone, then we will leave you alone.”

If we attempt to withdraw from the world but remain successful and engaged in trade and in selling our products over seas we will remain a symbol of success.  If we maintain a strong military it will be seen as a Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of every dictator, ideology or power opposed to us or our allies.  It will not satisfy them that we tell them we won’t use it they will not believe us.  

To withdraw and “mind our own business” while remaining militarily strong and economically successful is impossible.  Too many State actors and others are invested in seeing us fail.  We can give them the space they need to grow and become more powerful, allowing them to choose the time and place of their challenge to us or we can deny them time and space and force the issue before they are ready but conflict  will come to us.  When you hear people talking about acting in the “American Interest” and “withdrawing from conflict” and “minding our own business” you should know that practically that is impossible.   We are engaged in the world and as long as we are successful we must stay engaged.  We can try and stop being a source of hope for the weak and oppressed and we can enable the strong and aggressive but that is not really in our interest.  It will just give our enemies a window to act in and opportunity to grow stronger since they no longer need to worry about unrest at home or opposition to expansion into minor states in their area of influence.

To really and truly withdraw we must fail.  If we want to maintain our success we will and must be engaged in the world.  That is the stark reality of the world we live in.  America will never be ignored, at it was before World War II, unless we show our selves to be weak and do not present a challenging model of success to the oppressed people of the world.

 

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Well put. When I watch River Monsters and I see people in tribes wearing T-Shirts with American logos, it really shows the reach of our culture. Well done.

    • #1
  2. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Excellent!  One positive effect of the American influence is the proliferation of US fast-food restaurant chains.  It’s not only the food, either.  When the Everett Symphony went to Vienna and Budapest in 1996, we were told that if you need to find a clean, free restroom quickly (happens often, when in a foreign country), look for the nearest McDonald’s or Burger King.  This saved many of us more than once.

    America imperils the world when it ceases to be the Land of The Free.

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  3. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    RushBabe49:Excellent! One positive effect of the American influence is the proliferation of US fast-food restaurant chains. It’s not only the food, either. When the Everett Symphony went to Vienna and Budapest in 1996, we were told that if you need to find a clean, free restroom quickly (happens often, when in a foreign country), look for the nearest McDonald’s or Burger King. This saved many of us more than once.

    America imperils the world when it ceases to be the Land of The Free.

    Another aspect about fast food restaurants that go beyond the food, that I wanted to work into my post but considering its length cut it. Fast food chains often are the first impact with a work ethic based on merit that many cultures experience.  So a young upper middle class college student comes home from KFC to her parents and says something like, “Dad, you know how you kept Uncle Dato on in the shop all these years despite his graft and incompetence?  You didn’t have too!  Its better if you hire and fire people based on the job they do.  At work today the nephew of the restaurant manager was fired for being late three times in a row.  It was amazing.  I am going to work hard to keep my place.”

    Of course this young woman’s father is quite offended and worried as his world starts to spin out of control.  But this is the kind of thing that changes culture.

    • #3
  4. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Bryan G. Stephens:Well put. When I watch River Monsters and I see people in tribes wearing T-Shirts with American logos, it really shows the reach of our culture. Well done.

    Thank you Bryan.

    • #4
  5. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Outstanding article! The comment that others look at Americans and ask what have they suffered? The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, The Mexican War, slavery, The Great Depression, The Dust Bowl, disease, WWI and WWII where u-boats were in our waters, for starters.  We are also the land of immigrants who fled dire situations for a better life and integrated to American culture, values, traditions and laws, building up America in the process while maintaining their historical identity.

    The second to last paragraph reads like George W. Bush’s address to the nation after 9/11 – if you harbor terrorists, you are with them.  You accurately portray that America’s success is spread to everyone else.  Closed societies are afraid as you stated, because opening up means the freedom to choose. I was struck while watching the unrest in Charlotte last night where the reporter asked a 28 year old African American if he knew the facts about the incident in its early stages.  He said “it doesn’t matter, people are angry – if America can give me something to be happy about, I’ll stop being angry.”  I think about your job as a missionary.  Everyone else sees us as having too much – we see ourselves as never having enough. If that man could go with you for a week, I think he would come back a different person.

    • #5
  6. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Front Seat Cat:Outstanding article! The comment that others look at Americans and ask what have they suffered? The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, The Mexican War, slavery, The Great Depression, The Dust Bowl, disease, WWI and WWII where u-boats were in our waters, for starters.

    Yes this is all true.  Few people realize exactly how far America has come in a very short amount of time.  However if you were to put up the suffering the American people to the Ukrainians or Georgians or Armenians it just pales.  We have never been conquered not in the distant past not now.  That is just not true of other people in the world.  It gives them a different perspective on things. 

    We are also the land of immigrants who fled dire situations for a better life and integrated to American culture, values, traditions and laws, building up America in the process while maintaining their historical identity.

    This mixing of races also mystifies most other people.  They all their lives believed in racial and cultural unity as the path to greatness the fact that Americans are mixed really surprises them.  Some Orthodox Christians have a hard time understanding how Americans can really be Christians when we are so mixed.  They equate salvation with race much more strongly than any American would.

    I was struck while watching the unrest in Charlotte last night where the reporter asked a 28 year old African American if he knew the facts about the incident in its early stages. He said “it doesn’t matter, people are angry – if America can give me something to be happy about, I’ll stop being angry.” I think about your job as a missionary. Everyone else sees us as having too much – we see ourselves as never having enough. If that man could go with you for a week, I think he would come back a different person.

    Get the most liberal and Conservative people you can find throw in a Jill Stein supporter and a libertarian and make sure each is from a different region from the US drop them all in the middle of Foreign country.   They will all quickly realize just how completely American each one of them is and how much they all have in common.

    Also thank you for your kind comments Cat…

    • #6
  7. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    Brian Wolf: If we attempt to withdraw from the world but remain successful and engaged in trade and in selling our products over seas we will remain a symbol of success. If we maintain a strong military it will be seen as a Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of every dictator, ideology or power opposed to us or our allies. It will not satisfy them that we tell them we won’t use it they will not believe us.

    This is why I  despise Ron Paul and libertarians in his camp.  They are blind to the hazards in the rest of the world, as they don’t admit that many dangerous people hate us for who we are, not (just) for what we do.

    • #7
  8. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Phil Turmel: This is why I despise Ron Paul and libertarians in his camp. They are blind to the hazards in the rest of the world, as they don’t admit that many dangerous people hate us for who we are, not (just) for what we do.

    It is amazing how many people I have found that think all the ways that America has used its power is a kind of grand conspiracy.  See if they had the power that America had they would make a real Empire.  So they tend to see everything America does as a tricky way of establishing an Empire no matter how unimperial America is. One America doesn’t use her power in direct fashion or constrains herself they think America is just being stupid.

    One other note.  I need to say they don’t dislike Americans for being Americans it is just that we are so successful.  It is hard for them to pin down our flaw as a nation.  If we were just a bit less successful or lost the Cold War or something like that people would have a much easier time dealing with us.

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  9. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Phil Turmel:

    Brian Wolf: If we attempt to withdraw from the world but remain successful and engaged in trade and in selling our products over seas we will remain a symbol of success. If we maintain a strong military it will be seen as a Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of every dictator, ideology or power opposed to us or our allies. It will not satisfy them that we tell them we won’t use it they will not believe us.

    This is why I despise Ron Paul and libertarians in his camp. They are blind to the hazards in the rest of the world, as they don’t admit that many dangerous people hate us for who we are, not (just) for what we do.

    Anyone who is pro Open Boarders has a childish view of the world.

    • #9
  10. Bill Nelson Inactive
    Bill Nelson
    @BillNelson

    Open disclosure: I was, and remain, a PNAC fan.

    Look at the middle east, and then examine what impacts America has had. Very mixed in Jordan, one of the few muslim nations that is relatively free. Less mixed in Saudi Arabia, where the commercial economy is somewhat American, but the market is not “free”.

    A major part is how a nation repairs the internal damage done by the previous government systems. Under communism, corruption is endemic (very true in China today), how is this rooted out? In Russia, the corrupt party members were the ones who immediately took over the economy and created a kleptocracy. And then the very idea of personal responsibility is new and unique.

    • #10
  11. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Bill Nelson:Open disclosure: I was, and remain, a PNAC fan.

    Look at the middle east, and then examine what impacts America has had. Very mixed in Jordan, one of the few muslim nations that is relatively free. Less mixed in Saudi Arabia, where the commercial economy is somewhat American, but the market is not “free”.

    A major part is how a nation repairs the internal damage done by the previous government systems. Under communism, corruption is endemic (very true in China today), how is this rooted out? In Russia, the corrupt party members were the ones who immediately took over the economy and created a kleptocracy. And then the very idea of personal responsibility is new and unique.

    Yes one of the big challenges people have who want to be like America or enjoy some of the success that America has is that they don’t understand the American way of doing things.  They see people need property, they make the market more “free” and then they let things run without institutional guard rails or a culture that does not support fraud and corruption.  They don’t think of everyone as deserving a fair shot and they rig the system to favor the older more established elites.  Then when things go wrong people claim, “The Free Market doesn’t work”.  It is tough to change or even to see how or what needs to change.  That is one of the reasons that I think the US should go into countries and do more modelling of our system on smaller scales instead of trying to transform the whole country at once.

    One of the things going for China right now is Hong Kong it is a model of the ways things could be.  That one model could infect the whole system if the Chicoms are not very careful.  Unfortunately they do seem very careful.

    • #11
  12. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Great post.  People who haven’t traveled much probably won’t appreciate the depth of this phenomenon.  I’ll tell just one story on the subject.  While in Athens, I asked my cab driver what the locals thought of America.  He announced that they had a low opinion of America and, of course, I asked why.  He told me that Greeks were very upset that Macedonia (the Republic of Macedonia) was using the name “Macedonia,” when that should rightfully be a name reserved for a region of Greece.  He (apparently along with others) was upset that America had not stopped Macedonia from “misappropriating” this name.

    I did not bother trying to explain that nobody in America (except, perhaps, in the State Department) was even aware that this was an issue, or that nobody in America (even in the State Department) thought that it was our business to tell other countries how to name themselves.  It wouldn’t have done any good if I had tried to explain.  He thought that America was all-powerful and responsible for everything, in the same way that socialists believe that “Wall Street” is responsible for whatever woes they might have.  It is really quite striking when you see it.

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  13. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    Interesting post. Just one comment regarding this:

    Brian Wolf: One major practical aspect is that it is very hard to withdraw from the world. It would not be hard to stop being a source of hope for the oppressed. That is fairly easy and would be a great boon to the people that hate us the most. [emphasis added]

    In the aftermath of 9/11, many, especially those on the Left, asked “why do they hate us?” At a seminar a month or so later, I heard Martin Kramer explain that they don’t hate us, they despise us. If you’re unclear on the distinction between hate and despise, the latter involves contempt. It’s an important distinction worth making.

    • #13
  14. Ray Kujawa Coolidge
    Ray Kujawa
    @RayKujawa

    Hail Hydra!

    • #14
  15. Rocket Surgeon Inactive
    Rocket Surgeon
    @RocketSurgeon

    Brian Wolf: What made it all worse was the America not only threw out everything the Persians knew about state craft and policy they were successful in every way. Wealth, military power, influence, cultural achievements, sports, Americans achieved at everything and the only things Americans weren’t good at were things that Americans did not seem to care about. This was a challenge that any government that ruled Persia, now Iran, would have to deal with

    The last Persian monarch, the Shah, had a vision, making strides toward  Western modernity, with American investment – until Jimmy Carter pulled the Persian rug from under him.  How different the Middle East would be today, if…

    • #15
  16. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Larry3435:

    I did not bother trying to explain that nobody in America (except, perhaps, in the State Department) was even aware that this was an issue, or that nobody in America (even in the State Department) thought that it was our business to tell other countries how to name themselves. It wouldn’t have done any good if I had tried to explain. He thought that America was all-powerful and responsible for everything, in the same way that socialists believe that “Wall Street” is responsible for whatever woes they might have. It is really quite striking when you see it.

    Which speaks powerfully to the point I was making that even if we took a more isolationlist position no one would believe that we were minding our own business. We are simply too powerful and to visible for people to believe that we are “minding our own business”.  Not only that but we are too involved in the world to be able to let people take care of their own business.  These things that we want to disengage from really is our business.  It is just the fact of America’s success.  Give up America’s success you can disengage from the world.  Keep America successful and we must stay engaged.

    • #16
  17. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    drlorentz: In the aftermath of 9/11, many, especially those on the Left, asked “why do they hate us?” At a seminar a month or so later, I heard Martin Kramer explain that they don’t hate us, they despise us. If you’re unclear on the distinction between hate and despise, the latter involves contempt. It’s an important distinction worth making.

    There is some truth to this.  I would just say that people want to despise us but it not so easy to pull that off. I think to some extent people who are dictators or aspire to be dictators despise us for how we use our power.  To many of them we waste our power and give people too much freedom.  I think they despise.  However the normal rank and file really just see America as successful.  Some think we cheat and are sly, some think we are stupid and lucky but they all see that are success and our success is a rebuke to them and their worldview that leads them to hate.

    • #17
  18. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Rocket Surgeon: The last Persian monarch, the Shah, had a vision, making strides toward Western modernity, with American investment – until Jimmy Carter pulled the Persian rug from under him. How different the Middle East would be today, if…

    It was the Shah desire for one man rule that did him in.  Carter could have been more deft in handling it and been content to let the Shah rule until his death and then help Iran transition to more of a Constitutional monarchy, which is what they got essentially with the Islamic Republic.  But instead Carter pushed him and pushed him until he fell.

    Carter is a great example of a good man, at the time, who really wanted to help oppressed people making horrible decisions based on his terrible ideology.  If Carter’s ideology had not been so divorced from reality he would have been a much more successful president.

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  19. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Thank you to all that recommended this post.  This is my first post upvoted by my peers on Ricochet.  Thank you!

    • #19
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Brian Wolf:

    If we were just a bit less successful or lost the Cold War or something like that people would have a much easier time dealing with us.

    Her relentless humility was a rebuke and a rod to the envious and small minded she met at every turn :-)

    • #20
  21. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Zafar:

    Brian Wolf:

    If we were just a bit less successful or lost the Cold War or something like that people would have a much easier time dealing with us.

    Her relentless humility was a rebuke and a rod to the envious and small minded she met at every turn ?

    It is probably important for me to note that it is true that many people don’t believe that Americans deserve their success.  They just don’t see why it has been Americans that have been so successful at acquiring wealth.  It is not about American cultural supremacy or anything like that.

    At the same time many, many nations of people have survived and rebuilt from disasters and genocides and destruction on a scale that most Americans couldn’t even imagine or survive.  This disparity in experience drives resentment to some degree.

    • #21
  22. Kate Braestrup Member
    Kate Braestrup
    @GrannyDude

    Brian Wolf: At the same time many, many nations of people have survived and rebuilt from disasters and genocides and destruction on a scale that most Americans couldn’t even imagine or survive. This disparity in experience drives resentment to some degree.

    And it’s impressive.

    Nice article, @Brian Wolf. I think the phenomenon reflects a human understanding of power that works on a micro-scale or a macro-scale. I’ve had parents tell me that they don’t punish their children for bad behavior because “might doesn’t make right.” The problem is that, in some sense, might does make right; if someone powerful enough to prevent you from doing something (cussing, throwing food, poking your sister in the eye with a Barbie leg) doesn’t, the message isn’t “we’re equal,” the message is “this is acceptable.”

    As my mother often points out, children’s impression of parental omnipotence makes for resentment that can last well into adulthood, even when we’re old enough to know it’s irrational.

    I like @larry3435‘s example: America could (in theory) have prevented Macedonia from calling itself Macedonia—we could’ve threatened sanctions, invasion, nukes! If we didn’t so it, it’s because we chose not to—and the Greek grumbles while the Macedonian is sure that America loves him best.

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  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Brian Wolf:

    Zafar:

    Brian Wolf:

    If we were just a bit less successful or lost the Cold War or something like that people would have a much easier time dealing with us.

    Her relentless humility was a rebuke and a rod to the envious and small minded she met at every turn ?

    It is probably important for me to note that it is true that many people don’t believe that Americans deserve their success.

    They put some of it down to luck.

    I don’t think most people want Americans to be poor – what’s the benefit in that? – but insisting that American good fortune owes nothing to luck and everything to intelligence, prudence and a sound moral fibre implies that other people’s lack of success is due to….anyway, you can see why that might be a little irritating.  Even (especially) when their lack of success is due in part to precisely these things (and bad luck).

    Iow what bugs (imho) others about America is not its success but its arrogance.

    • #23
  24. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Zafar: Iow what bugs (imho) others about America is not its success but its arrogance.

    Which I think comes from in part from the fact that America has never been conquered, never been on the downside of the wheel of fortune say.  Other nations has seen that, they know what it is like.  Americans not so much and so as the “undefeated champion” if you will Americans come across as arrogant and undeserving to others.

    Anyway that is why I see disengagement as being so hard.  Like in our old Western movies the fastest gun always draws new challengers.  Everyone has to see at some point if they are faster.  You are not really a world power until you can face down, throw back or defeat America.

    • #24
  25. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Zafar:

    Iow what bugs (imho) others about America is not its success but its arrogance.

    Jealous people always say that.

    It’s not arrogance, it’s just honest self assessment.

    Areogance is one thing, but when you back it up with performance people really get upset.

    • #25
  26. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Matt White:It’s not arrogance, it’s just honest self assessment.

    Is it honest to leave luck out of it?

    • #26
  27. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Zafar:

    Matt White:It’s not arrogance, it’s just honest self assessment.

    Is it honest to leave luck out of it?

    Yes, it is.  On a given spin of the roulette wheel, there is luck involved.  When you look at whether the casino wins at the end of the month, there is no luck involved.

    • #27
  28. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Larry3435:

    Zafar:

    Matt White:It’s not arrogance, it’s just honest self assessment.

    Is it honest to leave luck out of it?

    Yes, it is. On a given spin of the roulette wheel, there is luck involved. When you look at whether the casino wins at the end of the month, there is no luck involved.

    The casino wins because most other people lose.  There’s a direct connection.

    I don’t see America’s success that way.

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  29. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Kate Braestrup: The problem is that, in some sense, might does make right; if someone powerful enough to prevent you from doing something (cussing, throwing food, poking your sister in the eye with a Barbie leg) doesn’t, the message isn’t “we’re equal,” the message is “this is acceptable.”

    I was in Romania and in course of missionary work I befriend a young man and was taken into his group of skin-head like thugs.  They beat Muslims and Gypsies for fun and profit but they had nothing against me so they listened to me about the Gospel and Jesus and I in return listened to anything they wanted to talk about.

    One subject they really wanted to talk about was Kosovo.  They were really offended at America for buying the lie that Kosovo was not Serbia and that the Albanians that moved to Serbia in the 60s were in reality the ancient Kosavars who wanted their homeland back.

    I knew something of medieval Serbian history so I was able to explain to them that of course Kosovo was Serbian land and they were really surprised I knew anything about the subject.  Then I went on to explain that Americans had no idea about the land issue and knew nothing really of how important Kosovo land was to Serbia.  What had motivated the Americans was the current actions of Milosevic’s government and the brutal measures of repression that he used to suppress the Albanians.  When my Romanians saw that it was Milosevic’s actions that had motivated Clinton to move in Kosovo it was like a light bulb when on in their minds.  They asked me what Milosevic should have done and I sketched out a way that Milosevic could have fought the Albanians and kept America out of the war or even brought America in as an ally.  Once I did that they were no longer blaming America but blaming Milosevic’s out of date Communist ways for losing Kosovo.

    But for them and many people in the region the argument was over who really had the most ancient and true claim to the land and the politics of the moment were immaterial.  While Americans viewed the politics of the moment as everything and couldn’t care less about ancient land claims.  Once the Romanians understood that they were more accepting of the American position but still could not understand why politics should trump blood connection to the land.

    I think this is another reason why people often can’t quite understand what America is doing and America has trouble understanding the world.

    • #29
  30. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Matt White:Jealous people always say that.

    It’s not arrogance, it’s just honest self assessment.

    Areogance is one thing, but when you back it up with performance people really get upset.

    See this is arrogance @mattwhite  There are many nations and many people who were undefeated and seemingly unbeatable for centuries.  Persia was a go too culture and cultural leader for centuries.  I could multiply this many fold.  Could the American people hold together after experiencing just half the disaster that the Armenians or Georgians survived?  We don’t know because we have not been tested that way yet.

    Americans have been in our dominant position for 70 years or so.  That is not a very impressive run so far.  What makes us a little different from cultures in the past is our world wide influence as we rose to the top as technological wave washed over the world and made our presence near universal for all of humanity.  For instance for the nearly 1,000 years that China was more advanced, in every way, than the West we in the West didn’t know it.   When Egypt was the highest and most advance culture in the West for well over a thousand years our ancestors in Europe had no idea that Egypt was so advanced.  Today everyone knows who is at the top of the heap and it is the US.  If it is still that way a couple of centuries from now we will have something to really brag about.

    If not we were just a flash in the pan.

    Even have said that though it is true that we have had a remarkable 70 year run.

    • #30
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