Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho, Western Civ is Going to Go!

 

shutterstock_88421281My husband, my youngest daughter, and I had lunch with an old friend yesterday. He and I were known to have heated arguments back when we were more politically in-sync, which, I daresay, we both enjoyed immensely. While he still adheres to atheistic liberalism, I’ve converted both religiously and politically. Paradoxically, our conversations seem to be more measured and substantive, although I still win 99 percent of the disputes – just ask me.

In the course of our conversation, he cracked a joke about selecting swimwear and potentially looking good in a burkini. This led to a discussion of France’s somewhat feeble attempts to push back against the assertion of Muslim culture by banning the veil and, now, the controversial initiative to ban the burkini. Our friend asserted there are only two realistic approaches to take on the cultural tensions extant when Muslims move into western societies: 1) Try to retain the western values of pluralism and religious tolerance in an open society while “leaving the door open for compromises,” or 2) Expel the alien ideological element and combat it wherever it is found. I demurred.

There is a third option, which is the course we’re currently pursuing: the West can simply lie down and die.

Something I said really touched a nerve, because our friend became very animated and heatedly asked me, “You really believe, in a hundred years, the West will be overrun?” He was absolutely confident that what we’re witnessing in the way of cultural jihad (from Islamic supremacists on one side and leftists on the other) is not a trend and I’m dead wrong to believe Western Civilization is vulnerable.

That was before I informed him about Sharia courts given the authority to settle civil disputes in Great Britain and many municipalities in Canada (because the Jews and the Catholics already had them, so Muslims must have them too!), and the abrogation of the Anglo common-law tradition. Neither was he aware of the video taken (by a very brave youngster, I assume) in the madrassa in Great Britain where high school students recite the punishments for homosexuality (throw them off a high place, and then stone them) and apostasy (kill them). H/t: @pseudodionysius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzEm4xuBhqg

Still, he insisted, I’m wrong to think the West is dying. Unfortunately, our time together was short and I had to leave, but I parted with this thought: In order to sustain a culture, the people must understand and love their heritage (Westerners are either ignorant or ashamed), must live by its values (we’re increasingly secular and relativistic), and even be willing to die for its principles. Most westerners are too soft to assert the superiority of our culture, with the exception being Christians and conservatives. <mic drop>

Now, how is any of this relevant to the 2016 Election (because every worthwhile discussion must be related to Trump vs Clinton)? The real contest is between Christianity and its two mortal enemies: Islam and leftism. They know it and most Christians (who are not also leftists) know it. NeverTrumpers? Not so much.

Why do I assert this? After mentally replaying my conversation with our friend and trying to discover the pattern that would explain the NeverTrump position, I noticed that the NeverTrumpers align almost identically with secular “conservatives” who are soft on social/cultural issues like abortion and SSM. On these subjects, they largely agree with the anti-Christian Left.

I don’t mean to suggest NeverTrumpers are themselves anti-Christian, only that their unfamiliarity with the Christian religious tradition may amke them unaware of the danger of their alliance with the Left to Christianity and, therefore, Western Civilization.

Let nothing disturb you,

Let nothing frighten you,

All things are passing away:

God never changes.

Patience obtains all things

Whoever has God lacks nothing;

God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa of Avila

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  1. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Amen!

    • #1
  2. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    As far as Western Civ goes, your friend is going to miss it more than he can imagine.

    • #2
  3. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    It’s alarming to observe the speed of the attempted demise of western civilization is taking place – was it happening this quickly prior to Obama?  We are witnessing a pivotal period in history, perhaps the greatest.  We can sit on the sidelines and do nothing or each do what we can – you are writing this story – therefore bringing open the discussion – it matters. So does voting, locally as well as nationally.

    • #3
  4. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    Western Chauvinist:Why do I assert this? After mentally replaying my conversation with our friend and trying to discover the pattern that would explain the NeverTrump position, I noticed that the NeverTrumpers align almost identically with secular “conservatives” who are soft on social/cultural issues like abortion and SSM. On these subjects, they largely agree with the anti-Christian Left.

    At this point there’s not much point in arguing, as you’re obviously not going to listen, so I’ll just leave it at

    WRONG!

    • #4
  5. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Umbra Fractus:

    Western Chauvinist:Why do I assert this? After mentally replaying my conversation with our friend and trying to discover the pattern that would explain the NeverTrump position, I noticed that the NeverTrumpers align almost identically with secular “conservatives” who are soft on social/cultural issues like abortion and SSM. On these subjects, they largely agree with the anti-Christian Left.

    At this point there’s not much point in arguing, as you’re obviously not going to listen, so I’ll just leave it at

    WRONG!

    I said, “almost.” I know there are exceptions, but consider the prominent Ricochetti who are the most outspoken Never Trump.

    • #5
  6. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Americans won’t lay down and die; Europeans might-I don’t know-but Americans won’t. The danger is that people won’t see the danger until it’s literally right in front of them. The only Muslims I know are very Westernized; one of their daughters is a CPA and the other is in medical school. A third was seriously thinking about joining the military, but decided against it. Their father believes in women’s rights more than I do :) If all Muslims were like them, no problem. But when I see a woman in my neighborhood walking down the street in a Burka, it concerns me.. Americans will be tolerant of things like Burkas right up until the minute they won’t be. And then things will get ugly. I am not afraid that the West will die, at least not in America, but I do fear that horrible things will happen if a significant number of radical Muslims start demanding things like Sharia courts. I just don’t want to go there.

    • #6
  7. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Umbra Fractus: WRONG!

    From where I sit, too…Just sayin’…Off for something tasty…Carry on…

    • #7
  8. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    And I am not suggesting that Americans are intolerant and scary; radical Muslims are the ones who are intolerant and scary, which is why they cannot be allowed to settle here in large numbers. People who do not believe in the principles America was founded on cannot be allowed to move to America, period and end of story. Most Americans are incredibly good people, but radical Muslims are impossible to deal with, and if their numbers increase, things will get ugly.

    • #8
  9. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Judithann Campbell: Americans won’t lay down and die; Europeans might-I don’t know-but Americans won’t.

    I do not share your confidence after watching the last eight years. Things that were previously unthinkable are now enforced by law disconnected from natural law. I read a headline that Planned Parenthood submitted legislation to Congress that would have pro-life protesters arrested and jailed. It’s coming. It’s just a matter of time.

    • #9
  10. TeamAmerica Member
    TeamAmerica
    @TeamAmerica

    @Western Chauvinist- Hillary said within the last year or so, iirc, that to accommodate her pro-abortion views “religious beliefs will have to change.” http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/23/hillary-on-abortion-deep-seated-cultural-codes-religious-beliefs-and-structural-biases-have-to-be-changed/

    ( I was unable to use the link function, it doesn’t seem to be working)

    Trump has never gone that far, afaik.

    • #10
  11. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Western Chauvinist:

    Judithann Campbell: Americans won’t lay down and die; Europeans might-I don’t know-but Americans won’t.

    I do not share your confidence after watching the last eight years. Things that were previously unthinkable are now enforced by law disconnected from natural law. I read a headline that Planned Parenthood submitted legislation to Congress that would have pro-life protesters arrested and jailed. It’s coming. It’s just a matter of time.

    Any attempt to have pro-life protesters arrested and jailed is a sign of total desperation on the part of the abortion industry. Public opinion is tilting in a pro-life direction. I think what you describe is the abortion industry in its death throes. There are other things that I am less optimistic about: safe spaces, for instance, but I see that as over reach too. I don’t see people tolerating this stuff over the long term.

    • #11
  12. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Western Chauvinist: I do not share your confidence after watching the last eight years.

    And I should add: I am confident that Western Civilization will ultimately prevail, but things may get much worse before they get better. So I am not totally confident.

    • #12
  13. Oblomov Member
    Oblomov
    @Oblomov

    Rome was sacked in 410 A.D. and classical civilization fell to the barbarians. And yet, only 1000 years later, we got Michelangelo and Leonardo. So you see, there’s nothing to worry about. Given a long enough time horizon, everything will work out just fine.

    • #13
  14. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Oblomov:Rome was sacked in 410 A.D. and classical civilization fell to the barbarians. And yet, only 1000 years later, we got Michelangelo and Leonardo. So you see, there’s nothing to worry about. Given a long enough time horizon, everything will work out just fine.

    That isn’t what I am saying, at all :) I definitely never said that there is nothing to worry about; I think there is a great deal to worry about.

    • #14
  15. Robert McReynolds Member
    Robert McReynolds
    @

    Western Chauvinist:

    Judithann Campbell: Americans won’t lay down and die; Europeans might-I don’t know-but Americans won’t.

    I do not share your confidence after watching the last eight years. Things that were previously unthinkable are now enforced by law disconnected from natural law. I read a headline that Planned Parenthood submitted legislation to Congress that would have pro-life protesters arrested and jailed. It’s coming. It’s just a matter of time.

    Neither do I. The youngest among us have no concept of what actually made the US and Western Civilization top among all and they are next in line to take the reigns of power.

    • #15
  16. DocJay Inactive
    DocJay
    @DocJay

    I’m counting on the God part to smile and laugh through the decay.

    • #16
  17. Robert McReynolds Member
    Robert McReynolds
    @

    DocJay:I’m counting on the God part to smile and laugh through the decay.

    You and me both brother.

    • #17
  18. EB Thatcher
    EB
    @EB

    Western Chauvinist: I don’t mean to suggest NeverTrumpers are themselves anti-Christian – only that their unfamiliarity with the Christian religious tradition makes them unaware of the danger of their alliance with the Left to Christianity and, therefore, western civilization.

    Why do you say that NeverTrumpers are unfamiliar with Christian religious tradition?  That is an extremely sweeping statement that isn’t actually true.

    • #18
  19. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Your friend needs to define progress, and all change is not necessarily progress.

    • #19
  20. Severely Ltd. Inactive
    Severely Ltd.
    @SeverelyLtd

    It was stunning to me that America elected Obama in ’08. It was incredible, in the full sense of that word, that America re-elected him in ’12. Where he is a transparently vacuous ideologue, though, Hillary is actively dishonest and power hungry. If this country elects her this time around, I’m going to have to admit that I don’t really know most of these people. Not to be melodramatic, but I’m starting to feel like a stranger in a strange land.

    • #20
  21. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    DocJay:I’m counting on the God part to smile and laugh through the decay.

    https://youtu.be/KIFNVPA419w

    • #21
  22. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    EB:

    Western Chauvinist: I don’t mean to suggest NeverTrumpers are themselves anti-Christian – only that their unfamiliarity with the Christian religious tradition makes them unaware of the danger of their alliance with the Left to Christianity and, therefore, western civilization.

    Why do you say that NeverTrumpers are unfamiliar with Christian religious tradition? That is an extremely sweeping statement that isn’t actually true.

    Thanks for asking the question. It gives me an opportunity to think it through and explain.

    I’m speaking particularly of conservatives like Rob Long, whose anger and agitation about Donald Trump are unmistakable and, to me, unattractive. He doesn’t seem to understand the connection between the social/cultural issues, the animus of the Left to Christianity (which it rightly sees as the biggest obstacle to its power-grabbing aims), and the decline of Western Civilization.

    There are right-wingers on this site who view SoCons (Christianity) and the moral demands of the Christian God as a burden to conservatism. They consider our attempts to cling to an objective truth about the dignity of all human life and about family and marriage as a hindrance to electoral success at best — and an injustice (to women and gays) at worst.

    Their alliance with the Left on these issues leads them to discount the threat from the Democrats and Hillary Clinton. “Trump is just as bad.”  They don’t have skin in the game like Christians do.

    • #22
  23. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    The Left is fighting a war of attrition.

    But I keep looking at the map of World War II, seeing how hopeless it must have looked to Americans at the start or in the midst of our joining the Allies’ war effort, and I have hope for western civilization.

    The challenge is difficult, but I believe eventually we will prevail.

    For one thing, the intelligence and wisdom are on the Right, not the Left, side. :)

    • #23
  24. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Unfortunately we know that Hillary Clinton is not the champion of classical Western Civilization. The better choice might be Donald Trump, but make no mistake Mr. Trump has an intellect that is a mile wide and an inch deep.

    • #24
  25. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Oblomov:Rome was sacked in 410 A.D. and classical civilization fell to the barbarians. And yet, only 1000 years later, we got Michelangelo and Leonardo. So you see, there’s nothing to worry about. Given a long enough time horizon, everything will work out just fine.

    You optimist always get it wrong by cherry picking your time frames.  Given a long enough time horizon we face the inevitable heat death of a burnt out universe.

    • #25
  26. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Fake John/Jane Galt:

    Oblomov:Rome was sacked in 410 A.D. and classical civilization fell to the barbarians. And yet, only 1000 years later, we got Michelangelo and Leonardo. So you see, there’s nothing to worry about. Given a long enough time horizon, everything will work out just fine.

    You optimist always get it wrong by cherry picking you time frames. Given a long enough time horizon we face the inevitable heat death of a burnt out universe.

    That is why SMOD is so attractive, there will be no more budget deficits, period. The price is rather high though.

    smod 2016

    • #26
  27. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Doug Watt:Unfortunately we know that Hillary Clinton is not the champion of classical Western Civilization. The better choice might be Donald Trump, but make no mistake Mr. Trump has an intellect that is a mile wide and an inch deep.

    For the sake of argument, I’ll concede your point about Trump. So the choice is between ignorant and impeachable or malicious and unaccountable. It’s kind of a no-brainer to me.

    It’s a grave injustice for Hillary to be rewarded for her corruption with the presidency. I can’t be a part of that.

    • #27
  28. EB Thatcher
    EB
    @EB

    Western Chauvinist: I’m speaking particularly of conservatives like Rob Long, whose anger and agitation about Donald Trump are unmistakable and, to me, unattractive. He doesn’t seem to understand the connection between the social/cultural issues, the animus of the Left to Christianity (which it rightly sees as the biggest obstacle to its power-grabbing aims), and the decline of Western Civilization.

    Thanks for your further explanation.  However, it is still a sweeping generalization.

    I am not voting for Trump and as the daughter of an extremely conservative Anglican bishop (1928 Book of Common Prayer), I am very familiar with “the Christian religious tradition.”  That is one of the major factors that informs my decision not to support Trump or Hillary.  I also know quite a few conservative Christians who feel similarly.

    Interestingly, I have also listened to Rob Long since before Trump came on this election scene and I have never gotten the impression that “He doesn’t seem to understand the connection between the social/cultural issues, the animus of the Left to Christianity…., and the decline of Western Civilization.”  In fact, I would say just the opposite.

    • #28
  29. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    EB: Thanks for your further explanation. However, it is still a sweeping generalization.

    Yes, I agree it’s a generalization. Our own Nanda shares your position and I know her to be a solid, small-o orthodox Catholic.

    But, I still claim there’s a strong correlation between the Ricochet staff who are supportive of SSM and pro-choice and are Never Trump. How do you explain it?

    And by what rationale do you, as a Christian, find Hillary Clinton an acceptable alternative? I know you’re not voting for her, but your opposition to Trump plays in her favor.

    • #29
  30. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Conservatives losing The West (possible?) is not the same thing as The West losing  (it definitely isn’t).

    Two very different issues, and one does not automatically lead to the other.  The proof of the pudding.

    • #30
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