At What Point Does Voting for Trump Become Virtue-Signaling?

 

Donald Trump NYWith the exception of his convention bounce, Trump has been behind Clinton from day one. His paths to victory are extremely narrow and the predictions markets have consistently favored a Clinton win. On a state-by-state basis, Trump’s chances look no better. It’s a little too early to say that he’s going to lose, but its likelihood is both high and rising.

So, barring some major change (which, again, I concede is still just possible) we’re rapidly approaching the date where we can say it’s over and Clinton’s won. And if we reach that point, a vote for Trump will simply be a matter of virtue-signaling — whether to yourself or others — one’s justified loathing for Hillary Clinton and will have precisely the same impact as voting for Gary Johnson or even Evan McMullin.

Now, one might say that it doesn’t matter and that we should still hold out hope even when the odds are gone … but that’s been one of the main complaints against NeverTrumpers for months.

If we’re going to go down fighting, I’d rather do it under a banner I can be proud of.

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  1. FightinInPhilly Coolidge
    FightinInPhilly
    @FightinInPhilly

    It’s at the exact point where not voting for Trump becomes virtue signaling.

    • #1
  2. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Talk about virtue-signaling.

    • #2
  3. FightinInPhilly Coolidge
    FightinInPhilly
    @FightinInPhilly

    But in all seriousness, listening to today’s first guest (can’t find her name) eloquently defend a Trump vote I had a minor epiphany:

    I can vote for him and NOT ADMIT IT !!

    I’m not on TV, I don’t have an editorial legacy to defend. I walk into the booth and it’s my own damn business.

    • #3
  4. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: And if we reach that point, a vote for Trump will simply be a matter of virtue-signaling — whether to yourself or others

    Self-signaling is an oxymoron. Since we enjoy a secret ballot in the US, voting per se cannot be signaling. Announcing one’s vote can arguably be virtue signaling, but not voting itself.

    It seems that in a rush to accuse Trump-supporters of virtue signaling, logic and language have gone by the wayside. Unsurprising, perhaps, given the emotional nature of discussions of Mr. Trump.

    • #4
  5. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: And if we reach that point, a vote for Trump will simply be a matter of virtue-signaling — whether to yourself or others — one’s justified loathing for Hillary Clinton and will have precisely the same impact as voting for Gary Johnson or even Evan McMullin.

    History will highlight the margin between the two major candidates. The others will not merit even an asterisk.

    […that is, if one is assuming a landslide, as you are.]

    • #5
  6. Chuckles Thatcher
    Chuckles
    @Chuckles

    Three-pointer, @Tom Meyer, Ed.

    Of course at this instant Trump appears to only be behind by 158 electoral votes and something can always happen, so there’s still a chance.

    • #6
  7. Kevin Creighton Contributor
    Kevin Creighton
    @KevinCreighton

    FightinInPhilly:It’s at the exact point where not voting for Trump becomes virtue signaling.

    Bingo. Not voting for Trump is no more virtuous than voting for Trump is. All of us are operating under our own moral codes and are acting as our conscience tells us to act.

    Even before Ted Cruz told us to do so.

    • #7
  8. goldwaterwoman Thatcher
    goldwaterwoman
    @goldwaterwoman

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: If we’re going to go down fighting, I’d rather do it under a banner I can be proud of.

    I can only say I’ve proudly voted for every single Republican candidate for the last 50 years, even Bob Dole when I knew he had absolutely no chance of winning.  I shall do so again this year, and I’ll fight the Nevers all the way to November to elect Donald J. Trump.

    • #8
  9. DocJay Inactive
    DocJay
    @DocJay

    A week and a half or two  ago Trump had an 18.6% on fivethirtyeight and now he’s at 26.2% so his chances are actually increasing in the last two weeks corresponding to  a few issues.

    I’m certain his chances are not good but I’m curious how  you feel they are worse when the gambling market says they’re better.

    • #9
  10. James Of England Moderator
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Fivethirtyeight, which seems to me to be the best numbers site out there (although their general election covereage this cycle has been suprisingly poor, their numbers still seem good), says that Trump is up to a 29.6% chance in its polls plus, highest quality prediction, a significant improvement on the recent estimates . That suggests to me that we’re not approaching the date when we can declare this over terribly rapidly.

    It is, of course, possible that Trump will have another awful week in which he goes after some sympathetic figure (Grandmothers? Apple pie?), praise for an unsympathetic figure (Pol Pot? Carrot Top?), and/ or adopts a fringe position (sterilising the mentally feeble to save Medicaid? Emergency Federal spending to put African Americans to work?),  but the reason that fivethirtyeight odds are identical today to where they were on June 24 is that the ups have exactly mirrored the downs. On the basis of that, it seems equally likely that Clinton will have a bad week as Trump.

    • #10
  11. Pencilvania Inactive
    Pencilvania
    @Pencilvania

    You know, I have to ask: if there are many more Democrats than Republicans in the US, and Trump inspires a lot of crossover votes from the Democrats but still cannot tilt the electoral college to the R side (one reason being Evan McMullin taking Utah away from the R column) what hope in %#$! do Republicans have of ever getting anyone elected to the White House?

    Maybe that’s more like cynicism-signaling.

    • #11
  12. James Of England Moderator
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    DocJay:A week and a half or two ago Trump had an 18.6% on fivethirtyeight and now he’s at 26.2% so his chances are actually increasing in the last two weeks corresponding to a few issues.

    I’m certain his chances are not good but I’m curious how you feel they are worse when the gambling market says they’re better.

    Great minds and such, but you should probably use the polls plus rather than the polls only model. In general, Nate’s been pretty persuasive that it’s more predictive.

    • #12
  13. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Is there any point at which voting for Gary Johnson or Evan McMullin isn’t virtue signalling?

    • #13
  14. James Of England Moderator
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Pencilvania:You know, I have to ask: if there are many more Democrats than Republicans in the US, and Trump inspires a lot of crossover votes from the Democrats but still cannot tilt the electoral college to the R side (one reason being Evan McMullin taking Utah away from the R column) what hope in %#$! do Republicans have of ever getting anyone elected to the White House?

    Maybe that’s more like cynicism-signaling.

    For what it’s worth, Fivethirtyeight thinks that Utah is 97.7% likely to go Trump. You hear a lot of excitement about it, but the chief impact of interest in the outcome in Utah should be to downgrade your respect for the pundit getting excited about it.

    • #14
  15. Chuckles Thatcher
    Chuckles
    @Chuckles

    Kevin Creighton:

    All of us are operating under our own moral codes and are acting as our conscience tells us to act.

    I hope that will be the case, but observe that some of have been urged to vote in violation of their conscience.  What I was certain were the moral principles of some friends I cannot correlate with how they say they plan on voting.

    • #15
  16. DocJay Inactive
    DocJay
    @DocJay

    James Of England:

    DocJay:A week and a half or two ago Trump had an 18.6% on fivethirtyeight and now he’s at 26.2% so his chances are actually increasing in the last two weeks corresponding to a few issues.

    I’m certain his chances are not good but I’m curious how you feel they are worse when the gambling market says they’re better.

    Great minds and such, but you should probably use the polls plus rather than the polls only model. In general, Nate’s been pretty persuasive that it’s more predictive.

    Got it.  Thanks.

    • #16
  17. Dad of Four Inactive
    Dad of Four
    @DadofFour

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: And if we reach that point, a vote for Trump will simply be a matter of virtue-signaling — whether to yourself or others — one’s justified loathing for Hillary Clinton and will have precisely the same impact as voting for Gary Johnson

    I am unclear on your concept of virtue signaling,.  How do you have the knowledge to tell me whether I am “Virtue Signalling”, meaning sad and pathetic,  -vs- making a reasoned, conscientious choice for the candidate I believe best represents my values and interests.

    Especially  puzzling to me is your concept of “Virtue Signalling” to myself.  So as a Ricochet member, I apparently lack personal insight such that my vote is  not only wrong, but wrong for the wrong reasons?  Based on what?  That I have a different set of criteria than yours?

    This strikes me as more of a request for “Virtue Signalling” by voting for Johnson or McMullin so that the evil Trump goes down into flames which will restore the virtue of all right thinking Ricochet members (or at least editorws) who  know he truly deserves defeat.

    Geez, is there a secret Ricochet editorial staff challenge to out perform CNN in the TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) stakes?

    • #17
  18. danys Thatcher
    danys
    @danys

    How does a secret vote become virtue-signaling?

    • #18
  19. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    danys:How does a secret vote become virtue-signaling?

    When you recommend it on Ricochet.

    • #19
  20. Dad of Four Inactive
    Dad of Four
    @DadofFour

    Basil Fawlty:

    danys:How does a secret vote become virtue-signaling?

    When you recommend it on Ricochet.

    Which makes it not a secret, or at this point in the election, a vote :-)

    • #20
  21. CM Member
    CM
    @CM

    I know there was an entire thread answering the question of what virtue signaling is, but I fear you missed it.

    Virtue signaling is the pharisee praying loudly on the corner of the street for the poor around him while fining and castigating the commoner who goes to the well for water on the sabbath.

    Caught up in their legalism, they miss that the law was for the people and not the people for the law.

    The idea is directly borne from this.

    • #21
  22. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: It’s a little too early to say that he’s going to lose, but its likelihood is both high and rising.

    I’m curious as to how you determined that the likelihood of a Trump loss is rising.

    Whatever his faults, Trump has taken some pretty high-profile initiatives over the past few weeks that have helped narrow his polling deficit. And polling data hasn’t yet captured what most reasonable people would concede was his greatest moment of this campaign to date. Meanwhile HRC’s campaign is by all accounts dead in the water at the moment.

    So, why should any objective observer conclude that the race isn’t becoming less competitive?

    • #22
  23. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    If Trump’s debate performances and weekly rabbit chasing make Hillary a cinch, I’ll vote for Johnson (despite his inanities) hoping that a large libertarian vote may send the message that a Republican cannot win without the liberty vote.

    If stopping Hillary is remotely possible, I’ll cast my vote for Trump under no illusion that it is an act of virtue.

    • #23
  24. goldwaterwoman Thatcher
    goldwaterwoman
    @goldwaterwoman

    Pencilvania: You know, I have to ask: if there are many more Democrats than Republicans in the US, and Trump inspires a lot of crossover votes from the Democrats but still cannot tilt the electoral college to the R side

    Election after election I watch as we win Pennsylvania — until we get to the black precincts in Philadelphia. The same goes for Ohio — until we get to Cincinnati. Florida is a win until you get to Broward County. We even win New York until you get to NYC. The Dems bring in busloads of poorly educated minorities to put them over the top in the inner cities, time after time. I’m not sure there’s anything we can do about it. Voter ID would help but not cure the problem.

    • #24
  25. TKC1101 Inactive
    TKC1101
    @TKC1101

    Nice try, Mr Meyer.

    Some of us lived through the 2000 election, the Reagan -Carter landslide surprise and the McCain collapse. We also have Brexit for you youngsters with short attention spans.

    This is halftime and we are down by less than a full touchdown.

    Those who decided to go cheer on other teams still have to wait until the end of the game.

    Virtue Signaling? Hah. I have been accused of worse by better.

    Still ahead- debates, terrorist attacks, WikiLeaks,  the Federal Reserve end of President Term financial crisis, and the usual plague, pestilence and locusts.

    Oh yes. And Voting.

    I see that going down fighting includes early cruise ship booking these days.

    • #25
  26. goldwaterwoman Thatcher
    goldwaterwoman
    @goldwaterwoman

    TKC1101:This is halftime and we are down by less than a full touchdown.

    Those who decided to go cheer on other teams still have to wait until the end of the game.

    Virtue Signaling? Hah. I have been accused of worse by better.

    I think I love you.

    • #26
  27. Tom Meyer Contributor
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    Kevin Creighton:Bingo. Not voting for Trump is no more virtuous than voting for Trump is. All of us are operating under our own moral codes and are acting as our conscience tells us to act.

    I agree completely and I have no moral objection to anyone who’s conscience and judgement lead them to cast an anti-Clinton vote for Trump; it’s a close call. There are NeverTrumpers who do so denigrate fellow conservatives and I think they’re wrong to do so.

    I am, however, weary of the argument that declining to vote — and encouraging others to do so — betrays some sort of moral preciousness, especially from when Trump appears to be on his way to losing bigly.

    • #27
  28. goldwaterwoman Thatcher
    goldwaterwoman
    @goldwaterwoman

    Dad of Four: Geez, is there a secret Ricochet editorial staff challenge to out perform CNN in the TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) stakes?

    You got it Dad of Four. Fortunately for us Trumpers, they need us for any kind of credibility at all. Not to worry as there are plenty of us willing to carry the fight to the end. And, I might add, there are some smart people on here who are not intimidated by the Nevers with Editor by their name.

    • #28
  29. Tom Meyer Contributor
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    TKC1101:Some of us lived through the 2000 election, the Reagan -Carter landslide surprise and the McCain collapse. We also have Brexit for you youngsters with short attention spans.

    Thank you. I hadn’t gotten my daily dose of condescension and this helps mightily.

    This is halftime and we are down by less than a full touchdown.

    Those who decided to go cheer on other teams still have to wait until the end of the game.

    Virtue Signaling? Hah. I have been accused of worse by better.

    Still ahead- debates, terrorist attacks, WikiLeaks, the Federal Reserve end of President Term financial crisis, and the usual plague, pestilence and locusts.

    Oh yes. And Voting.

    As I said, I don’t think it’s quite time to call the Trump campaign dead, though his continued inability to get ahead of Hillsry Clinton (of all people) does make won wonder when the doctor’s going to give up and look at his watch to log the time.

    I see that going down fighting includes early cruise ship booking these days.

    That might hurt if I had reason to care about such things.

    • #29
  30. Tom Meyer Contributor
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    goldwaterwoman:

    And, I might add, there are some smart people on here who are not intimidated by the Nevers with Editor by their name.

    Sounds scary!

    • #30
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