What Happens Brex’t?

 

2d7c08db-9d87-43ce-921f-513acca86f7e-2060x1236Global financial panic, Sterling collapsing, and Scotland — possibly Northern Ireland, too — apt to break away. Quite a day’s work.

A striking aspect of the results is the extent to which the vote represents a victory of the old over the young. “Young voters wanted Brexit the least,” as the Mirror put it, “and will have to live with it the longest.”

The final YouGov poll before the referendum showed 72% of 18 to 24-year-olds backed a Remain vote – with just 19% backing Brexit.

Brexiters were led to victory in the referendum overnight by triumphing in Tory shires and Old Labour heartlands in Wales and the north of England.

But the Kingdom is no longer United after London, Scotland and Northern Ireland all backed Remain.

The more damaging legacy, however, could be the staggering difference in how people of different ages [voted].

The final YouGov poll before the referendum showed 72% of 18 to 24-year-olds backed a Remain vote – with just 19% backing Brexit.

Lib Dem leader Tim Farron said: “Young people voted to remain by a considerable margin, but were outvoted. They were voting for their future, yet it has been taken from them.”

I hope that the optimists are proven right and that this is the first day of a bright new future for Britain and Europe. But unless it is — and unless the gain that justifies the pain comes sooner, rather than later — Britain (or what’s left of it) will experience an unprecedented generational war. Or at least, I’m racking my mind, and I can’t think of a precedent, can you?

 I’m so angry. A generation given everything: Free education, golden pensions, social mobility have voted to strip my generation’s future.

The pain will certainly be acute in the immediate term.

Now we’ll watch Europe’s biggest divorce case since Henry VIII. I posted this a few months ago, but it’s worth dusting off and watching again. This is from Open Europe’s simulation post-Brexit negotiations. Former Chancellor Norman Lamont is playing the role of the UK:

As someone who wishes Britain and Europe well, I hope very much that Britain withdraws in an orderly way and recovers as quickly as possible, leaving behind a Europe that’s better for the experience. I hope the rest of the EU learns and benefits from crisis and failure. And if it neither learns nor survives, I hope Europe’s reversion to a gaggle of fractious, quarreling states goes better than history would indicate.

Whatever happens, I’ll report. If you make a contribution this week, it will be earmarked for a chapter of Brave New World about Brexit and its consequences. Please contribute! This story is getting more and more interesting by the day — but I’m still well away from the goal.

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  1. La Tapada Member
    La Tapada
    @LaTapada

    What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating?  It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    • #301
  2. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    I think what may cause the response to Claire that we see here is that she is or may be an American expatriate, who is here as a contributor to conservative conversation, but also seems to be a Europhile. Since many here, maybe even most, think we have abandoned much of our Constitution while trying to turn America into a western hemisphere Europe and want to see some restoration as opposed to ‘leaving’, thus conflict with Claire’s positions.

    • #302
  3. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    Yeah, what’s she supposed to be doing? Instigating surreptitious sandlot baseball games and teaching kids to switch hands with their forks before they take a bite?

    • #303
  4. Larry3435 Member
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Percival:

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    Yeah, what’s she supposed to be doing? Instigating surreptitious sandlot baseball games and teaching kids to switch hands with their forks before they take a bite?

    That’s cute, but you don’t use a fork to eat a baguette sandwich.

    • #304
  5. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Larry3435:

    Percival:

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    Yeah, what’s she supposed to be doing? Instigating surreptitious sandlot baseball games and teaching kids to switch hands with their forks before they take a bite?

    That’s cute, but you don’t use a fork to eat a baguette sandwich.

    Hah. You don’t.

    • #305
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Larry3435:

    Percival:

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    Yeah, what’s she supposed to be doing? Instigating surreptitious sandlot baseball games and teaching kids to switch hands with their forks before they take a bite?

    That’s cute, but you don’t use a fork to eat a baguette sandwich.

    And are we all agreeing that Claire is not assimilated into French culture?

    • #306
  7. Larry3435 Member
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Bob Thompson:

    Larry3435:

    Percival:

    La Tapada:What is all this criticism of Claire’s living in France and not assimilating? It’s not like she’s an illegal alien in France who wants to live there forever but not accept French culture and values. As long as she follows the rules for expatriates living in France, why can’t she just be an American living in France?

    Yeah, what’s she supposed to be doing? Instigating surreptitious sandlot baseball games and teaching kids to switch hands with their forks before they take a bite?

    That’s cute, but you don’t use a fork to eat a baguette sandwich.

    And are we all agreeing that Claire is not assimilated into French culture?

    There’s enough rudeness going on around here that I’m not sure there is anyone who hasn’t been assimilated into French culture.

    • #307
  8. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Larry3435:

    There’s enough rudeness going on around here that I’m not sure there is anyone who hasn’t been assimilated into French culture.

    Let me just say that I like Claire’s conversation while sometimes not agreeing with her and I think I would like her  when we meet personally. But I don’t like how Europeans govern their part of the world so I don’t like the idea of those ways prevailing in America.

    • #308
  9. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Americans in Paris? They are there to win the heart of Leslie Caron.

    • #309
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    • #310
  11. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Umbra Fractus:

    Zafar:Oh please. If I had a dollar for every time someone in Ricochet expressed pride in a father or grandfather’s service I could buy a pony. But suddenly when Claire does it it’s a problem? Consistency, gents, consistency.

    That’s not what Claire did.

    She tried to use her grandfather’s service to deflect the charge that she wishes to live within a society without being expected to assimilate.

    If Claire wishes to live permanently in France, she should become French. If she wishes to remain American, she should come back home at some point. It appears that she wishes to live in France but remain American. That sort of flouting of the local culture by immigrants is why nationalism is on the rise.

    Good grief, are you serious?

    • #311
  12. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    EJHill:Americans in Paris? They are there to win the heart of Leslie Caron.

    EJ,

    Leslie Caron!?

    I bet they’re asleep in New York. I bet they’re asleep all over America.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #312
  13. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Umbra Fractus:
    That’s not what Claire did.

    She tried to use her grandfather’s service to deflect the charge that she wishes to live within a society without being expected to assimilate.

    That is how I read it too.

    • #313
  14. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Instugator:

    Umbra Fractus:
    That’s not what Claire did.

    She tried to use her grandfather’s service to deflect the charge that she wishes to live within a society without being expected to assimilate.

    That is how I read it too.

    Right.  Not only is there the unanswered “what have you done for me lately” question that matters a great deal in the military, there’s also this: the author doesn’t seem to esteem the opinions of those who have served in the US military as much as somebody whose grandfather once served in that of a foreign country.

    Claire, you’ve really stepped in poo here.  I recommend admitting it — retract the comment, wipe it off your shoe, and enjoy the rest of the day.

    • #314
  15. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Amy Schley:

    EJHill: At what point does the Trail of Tears stop? When is slavery really ended? Does saying, “Never Again” also mean never forgive?

    And at one point does one lose the right to declare that one’s ancestors’ patriotism suffices as proof of one’s own?

    I’ll offer a second, more general answer:  the moment you draw your first breath.

    • #315
  16. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that an (I think) Australian telling an American to become French if she wanted to live in Paris because failing to do so was responsible for recreating the conditions that almost killed her grandparents (in Paris) would be beyond irritating.  Her response was, frankly, restrained.

    • #316
  17. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Zafar:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that an (I think) Australian telling an American to become French if she wanted to live in Paris because failing to do so was responsible for recreating the conditions that almost killed her grandparents (in Paris) would be beyond irritating. Her response was, frankly, restrained.

    I guess it is a good thing that isn’t what he said.

    • #317
  18. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Instugator:

    Zafar:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that an (I think) Australian telling an American to become French if she wanted to live in Paris because failing to do so was responsible for recreating the conditions that almost killed her grandparents (in Paris) would be beyond irritating. Her response was, frankly, restrained.

    I guess it is a good thing that isn’t what he said.

    Thank Heavens.  He lost me there, but I don’t wish to be disagreeable.  Zafar, I think you are providing rather more of the facts than you are reporting.

    • #318
  19. Liz Member
    Liz
    @Liz

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    Instugator:

    Zafar:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that an (I think) Australian telling an American to become French if she wanted to live in Paris because failing to do so was responsible for recreating the conditions that almost killed her grandparents (in Paris) would be beyond irritating. Her response was, frankly, restrained.

    I guess it is a good thing that isn’t what he said.

    Thank Heavens. He lost me there, but I don’t wish to be disagreeable. Zafar, I think you are providing rather more of the facts than you are reporting.

    What is this all about again? Someone is arguing Claire didn’t assimilate, someone is arguing she’s too Europhilic, someone thinks she shouldn’t mention her grandfather’s experience.

    There are certainly differences in French and American culture, and in the respective national personalities. But an American in France need not “assimilate” to French culture, per se. We share in the greatness of Western culture. The French have their ways, and we have ours. Can’t the same be said of New Jerseyans and Mississippians? One gets used to it. No assimilation necessary.

    • #319
  20. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Liz: someone thinks she shouldn’t mention her grandfather’s experience.

    Not true.  Someone, several it seems, think that she shouldn’t use her grandfather’s convictions as proof of her own.

    IMHO, conservatism rests upon acknowledging and appreciating with humility the gift bequeathed us by our forebears, and admitting our unworthiness until proven otherwise.  This is quite the opposite of taking credit for those acts by the departed.  Very much the opposite.

    My grandfathers and great-uncles (not all of them, natch) fought in World War II — all of them on the right side, I might add.  They and their brothers as Americans gave me much.  It implies nothing of my fitness or honor.  That’s up to me, and SHAME if I claim their honor as my own.

    I don’t expect Claire to hit the frontlines — there’s a place for everybody, although I understand her brother is married to a lady who fights for something under UN auspices.  Frankly, I would be happy if most reservists in a combat zone carried no weapon, just ammo (I might need it), so not everybody needs to be in a foxhole.

    But pride and gratitude are opposite of claiming that one’s virtues are to be assumed because of the virtue of a forebear.

    There.  Now if you disagree, that’s fine.  But please let me know if you do not understand this point of view about grandfathers, etc.

    • #320
  21. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Ball Diamond Ball: Someone, several it seems, think that she shouldn’t use her grandfather’s convictions as proof of her own

    I didn’t take it that way. I took her example of the treatment her grandfather had at the hands of the French government as her reason for not becoming French now.

    The problem I have with that is she is equating the lack of honor of a collaborationist government (Vichy France) with the post war France.

    While I have nothing but contempt for the post WW2 French government, I at least draw the distinction between it and the puppet Vichy regime. In no way would I use the dishonorable treatment of my grandfather at Vichy hands as the reason not to assimilate.

    • #321
  22. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Instugator:

    Ball Diamond Ball: Someone, several it seems, think that she shouldn’t use her grandfather’s convictions as proof of her own

    I didn’t take it that way. I took her example of the treatment her grandfather had at the hands of the French government as her reason for not becoming French now.

    The problem I have with that is she is equating the lack of honor of a collaborationist government (Vichy France) with the post war France.

    While I have nothing but contempt for the post WW2 French government, I at least draw the distinction between it and the puppet Vichy regime. In no way would I use the dishonorable treatment of my grandfather at Vichy hands as the reason not to assimilate.

    Wasn’t it Claire who coined the phrase “boring, repetitive and tense?”  I think it applies here.

    • #322
  23. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Cato Rand: Wasn’t it Claire who coined the phrase “boring, repetitive and tense?” I think it applies here.

    Flag it then. No one is stopping you. BTW, nice to see you back.

    • #323
  24. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Instugator:

    Cato Rand: Wasn’t it Claire who coined the phrase “boring, repetitive and tense?” I think it applies here.

    Flag it then. No one is stopping you. BTW, nice to see you back.

    Thanks.  Not flag worthy.  Just very “over.”  What I really ought to do is unfollow this thread.  The interesting discussion on it ended two days ago.

    • #324
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