Austria’s Elections: A Q&A with Ricochet Member Lilibellt

 

No Nazis in Hofberg

As you’ve probably read, Norbert Hofer of Austria’s Freedom party (FPÖ) narrowly lost Austria’s recent presidential election. It was very close. The population of Austria is about 8.5 million; Hofer was defeated by 31,000 votes. The tie-breaking votes were postal votes, and these are now the subject of controversy: the Austrian interior minister has launched a probe into “irregularities” in postal voting. The near-election of Hofer, it has been widely reported, threw Europe into a panic:

There was an audible sigh of relief throughout Europe this week when the far-right candidate very narrowly failed to gain the highest office in Austria.

But the message from Austria is still very clear: Politics have changed, new forces are gaining strength, and there is no immediate turning back. And this applies well beyond Austria’s borders. …

But the reporting on this has been thin in the English-language press, and has failed to explain much about this party’s historical background, what exactly it means to call Hofer’s party “far-right,” and why Austria’s politics have changed.

image012

Lilibellt and her husband in a wine cellar in Vienna.

One of our members, Lilibellt, was born and grew up in Innsbruck, the capital of Tyrol. She now lives in Vienna. She reluctantly voted for the FPÖ. Although she says she’s not a typical FPÖ voter, I suspect her perspective will give you more insight into Austrian politics than you’ll find elsewhere in the Anglophone press.

Lilibellt is 42 years old, and she works in the construction industry, as a project manager. In the past week, she and I exchanged an epic series of e-mails about Austrian history and politics, Europe, and immigration, totaling almost 20,000 words. We wanted to share our exchange with Ricochet, although obviously 20,000 words is too long and confusing for a single post.

Exchanging e-mails (even with a well-informed interlocutor) isn’t the same as journalism. The only way I can feel confident in reporting about this is by seeing it for myself and speaking to as many people, of as many different opinions, as possible. I haven’t set foot in Vienna in nearly 25 years. But Lilibellt has generously offered to introduce me to people on all sides of the political spectrum in Austria, and I plan to take her up on it. Austria is in some ways at the heart of the crisis in Europe, both geographically and historically, and spending time there will be especially interesting for the book I’m now researching.

For now, though, we both thought Ricochet would be interested in our e-mail. We’ll be posting the rest of it here, too, in a series, over the coming week. We’ve reorganized and edited the exchange for clarity and brevity.

PART I: THE MIGRANT CRISIS 

Lilibellt: What we’re witnessing right now in Europe – to paraphrase Max Weber – is a battle between the ethics of responsibility and the ethics of opinion. Immigration, up to a point, is a very good thing, but we [Austria] have done a very poor job of integrating Muslim immigrants from 10, 20, and 30 years ago. And I think you are with me on the necessity to differentiate between refugees and migrants, if only to help as many traumatized refugees as possible, aren’t you? [I am. — Claire] There is a factual limit to how many people you can let into a country and care for. If the available capacities are used up by migrants (who most likely will be turned away – from Afghanistan, Somalia, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt, etc., but only after years of processing them due to our judicial system), there will be no place for real refugees.

After the Yugoslavian war, Austria took in the largest part of the refugees – real refugees – and they overall integrated very well into Austrian society. But this time, three-quarters of the asylum seekers, according to Eurostat, are male. This suggests to me that there is no imminent threat to their parents, wives, and children. They wouldn’t leave them behind unsecured and helpless, would they? [We discuss this statistic and what it means later in our exchange, which we’ll post this week — Claire.]

The official crime statistics show that more than a third of the “asylum seekers” in Vienna are committing crimes. Vienna was one of the safest metropolises in the world, without any no-go areas. When crime reports from the police or in newspapers don’t disclose the nationality or ethnic characteristic of the perpetrators of crime because it would be “racist,” girls and women are kept in the dark. There have been thefts, assaults, rapes (of children and of a 70-year-old woman) and even murders, including the murder of an American woman who was studying in Vienna. The reports that most outrage me are the growing accounts of sexual assault and rape of women and children in refugee camps on Austrian and German soil. How many more unreported cases are there? We can’t even guarantee the security of the weakest and protect the real refugees from the very threats they were fleeing from. It’s a disgrace.

[The protection of refugees] is a very serious concern for me. My husband and I have helped many people with a migrant background over the years. Our most recent involvement was last year, with a Chechen family. My husband, who speaks Russian, organized a very well-paid security job for the father and also helped to find an affordable flat and a school for the children in Vienna. I don’t want to self-congratulate us too much, but I think I can say with enough confidence that within our means, my husband and I have done more to help migrants than many of the vocal advocates of this “welcome refugee” action. And by all means, even more are welcome, either real refugees or migrants with minimum work skills, but on the crucial condition, yet to be established, that breaking the law (any offence, from battery upward) will result in immediate deportation.

Asylum should not be granted to everybody whose life is in danger. (Criminals like drug dealers, and so forth, who are facing the death penalty for these crimes in their home states should be deported regardless – just think about it: In order not to get deported, you only have to commit a severe enough crime – three years in an Austrian prison and you can never ever be deported!) But asylum should, more broadly, be granted to people who are persecuted because of their religion, politics or race, not only when they are threatened with death. (I would think torture is no walk in the park either.)

It’s okay that things change, even become more difficult, but there is something disturbingly casual about the way that a society gives up on hard-fought achievements (yes, especially for women), on internal security, and on selecting who is allowed to enter the country in order to comply with this quixotic imperative of open borders. It is so much easier to destroy than to rebuild. I am not so much angry as deeply saddened, and I still consider myself – but perhaps in an anachronistic way – pro-immigration.

PART II: THE NAZI PAST OF THE FPÖ

Claire: This makes sense, and certainly doesn’t sound like a “racist” or “xenophobic” perspective. But this is the way FPÖ voters are usually described in the Anglophone media. The FPÖ is also usually described as a “far-right” party. This term isn’t helpful: What does that mean, exactly? What is meaningful, and what alarms me, are the party’s links with Putin [we discuss this in a later email exchange], and that the FPÖ was founded, in 1956, by Nazis. The party’s first leader, Anton Reinthaller, was an SS Brigadeführer. Not a “neo-Nazi,” or “someone so offensive that he was compared to a Nazi,” but an actual Nazi, full stop —

Lilibellt: — I am really not sure if I would put it like this. The FPÖ was founded in 1955 through a merger with the VdU [the Federation of Independents]. The first head of the FPÖ, elected in 1956, was – as you stated correctly – an actual Nazi. But before that, the VdU had been for a decade the third political camp, apart from the socialist and conservative party. It was founded by two liberal-conservative journalists (Herbert Alois Kraus, who was court-martialed by the Nazis, and Viktor Reimann, who was in the resistance and imprisoned between 1940 and 1945). Its members were mainly the displaced and returnees from the war, but also former NSDAP members.

I want to point this out, because up until recently there was a battle between the national(ist) and liberal-conservative wing of the FPÖ. It would nevertheless be absolutely accurate to say that the FPÖ was the only political party in Austria with a Nazi as its leader. But then, we need to note that the SPÖ [the Social Democratic Party] was the only party in Austria with Nazis in the actual government (1971). By the same definition, the UN (1972-1981), and later Austria (1986-1992) had a Nazi as president, remember Kurt Waldheim (ÖVP)? [Austrian People’s Party]

Claire: Yeah, I remember him. I also remember that in 1958, Reinthaller was replaced by Friedrich Peter, another Nazi. He joined the NSDAP in 1938 and volunteered for the Waffen-SS at the age of 17. Simon Wiesenthal revealed that he had served at the western and eastern fronts as an Obersturmführer in the 10th regiment of the 1st SS Infantry Brigade, parts of which were detached to Einsatzgruppe C, which systematically exterminated hundreds of thousands of Jews. His unit was almost exclusively engaged in this activity —

Lilibellt:  —and he went on to have a long and successful political career, which is typical of the shady resumés of many postwar politicians (in all Austrian parties). In 1966, the extreme right, nationalist members left the party and founded a new, short-lived party, the NDP [National Democratic Party]. In the meantime, Friedrich Peter had become their ideological opponent. He forced them out in order to strengthen the liberal-conservative wing of the FPÖ. This took place five years before the most famous postwar Austrian chancellor, Bruno Kreisky — who was Jewish and the leader of the Socialist Party — was sworn in as Chancellor along with five Nazis as his ministers!

Peter was subsequently the cause of the Kreisky-Wiesenthal conflict [the feud with Nazi hunter Wiesenthal]. He negotiated a coalition between the SPÖ and FPÖ in 1983, and he condemned the subsequent leader of the FPÖ, Jörg Haider, for his remark that the Third Reich at least had produced a good employment policy, unlike the SPÖ. Finally, Peter even left the party in 1992 over disagreements about the FPÖ’s new-found opposition to Austria’s EU accession —

Claire: — You used to be a leftist who protested against having the FPÖ in government. How did the party come to speak for you?

Lilibellt: I voted FPÖ, first, for reasons of political hygiene: For a parliamentary system to work, it is vital to be able to vote a government out of office every once in awhile. But that seemed more and more unlikely in a country where the major parties have been bound together in a coalition for decades, with few interruption. Now, as they’re losing more votes from election to election, the Green Party and the Neos [The New Austria and Liberal Forum] are preparing to jump in to ensure the continuation of the status quo in exchange for one or two ministerial posts. So I went from being a protester against the government because of the participation of the FPÖ to being a supporter of the very party that I opposed years ago. The only opposition party left is the FPÖ.

Claire: Has the party changed to allow you to be more comfortable voting for it? Is your view, “Their history is unpleasant and embarrassing, but they’ve changed, and if they’re the only ones willing to address [the migration crisis], what choice do we have?” or do you think, “Of course we don’t really want them in power, this is a protest vote to show how desperate and angry we are that there’s no proper opposition party?”

Lilibellt: Actually, both. Just to clarify, it is impossible to vote for any party in Austria that never had any Nazi members, except probably for the Green Party and other small parties, because they were founded much later. But even then you can’t be a 100-percent sure. That is the proverbial ambiguity of the Austrian soul. The numbers of Austrian resistance fighters were modest. The FPÖ still has some members with contacts on the [hardcore nationalist] far right, just as there are classical liberals in their ranks. I am not deluding myself. I was nevertheless determined to vote for the FPÖ in the presidential elections no matter what, because all other parties were indistinguishable in their stance on the so-called refugee-crisis —

Claire: — The participation of the FPÖ in the Austrian government in 2000 was an international scandal —

Lilibellt: — Yes. Basically, after WWII the two major parties, ÖVP and SPÖ, split Austria up between them. You can call the coalition between ÖVP and FPÖ with Haider, from 2000-2007, an interregnum. Haider had to give up on becoming vice-chancellor because he was such a controversial figure. International protests had already started, and the Austrian president was reluctant to inaugurate this government at all. There were weekly protests on the streets, as you mentioned earlier – what fun it was, I never felt so self-righteous again in my whole life.

Claire: The sanctions were finally lifted. Remind us what happened to Jörg Haider?

Lilibellt: So Haider, whose personality wasn’t suited for standing in the second tier, split the party and founded a new one – the BZÖ [Alliance for the Future of Austria]. A very interesting turn of events indeed. In the ‘80s, Haider — with the help of the nationalistic faction of the Freedom Party — staged a coup against then FPÖ-leader Norbert Steger. Steger represented the classical-liberal wing of the party; he ousted the more nationalistic members and was, contrary to Haider, vice-chancellor of a SPÖ/FPÖ coalition (1980-1984) and vice-president of the Liberal International.

Then, 20 years later, Haider staged another coup, but this time against the nationalist wing of the party. His political star was rising again, but then he was killed in a car accident (under – depending on who you ask – more or less suspicious circumstances). After his death, there were rumors that he had been having a homosexual affair with his assistant. He was a political talent of a lifetime – a very sharp mind, with a deep knowledge of history and rhetorical skills. He was a man of means, too, and not dependent upon holding political office for income. Politically, he was an opportunist if not a cynic. He was surely one of the last Austrian politicians to read von Mises, Friedman, Schumpeter, et al., and I think the liberal way of thinking was closer to his heart. But when it came to power he chose whichever side was more likely to win. He had no reservations at all about extreme nationalists and revisionists, though! What disgusted me the most were his connections to the Gaddafi family. He was very close to one of the Gadhafi sons. It would have been hard for me to vote for the FPÖ if he’d still been on top of the ticket, even for the above-mentioned political hygiene reasons. I think you can relate in light of the Trump candidacy —

Claire: What exactly happened to the FPÖ after its separation from the BZÖ?

Lilibellt: Haider went back to being governor of Carinthia until his death. Many members of the FPÖ joined Haider’s BZÖ, which was still in a coalition with the ÖVP. H.C. Strache picked up the pieces that were left of the FPÖ. There were and are hardly any liberals left in the party; but on the other hand, the hardcore nationalists disappeared too. (Mostly, they died.) Strache is no Haider — not even a miniature version of him. He’s a descendent of Sudeten Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia after WWII, raised by single mother in Vienna. But in 2006, pictures surfaced of him at the age of 19, showing him the uniform of a Wiking-Jugen [German neo-Nazi youth organization, banned in Austria in 1994]. That lent credibility to allegations that he had been intimate with neo-Nazi-circles until his mid-twenties.

Haider had invented a very distinct, snarky speaking style; many FPÖ-members – including Strache – imitate him to this day. Strache worked very hard to lead the FPÖ back to its glory days by broadening its base and bringing in new members without problematic backgrounds. The FPÖ is now at its core a social democratic party, concentrating on Austrian problems — and it’s critical of immigration.

Claire: We’ll get back to that, but what do you think about the other parties and candidates in the recent election?

Lilibellt: I didn’t bother to watch any of the other candidates. I already knew them from previous elections or from political offices they had held. I had already made up my mind to vote FPÖ, and they run, for the most part, rather dull candidates, so I wasn’t even very interested in Norbert Hofer. I knew he was the third president of the Austrian parliament, but nothing else about him was memorable to me. Then he initiated a signature campaign to protect the use of cash. [After the EU decided to withdraw the 500 Euro bill, rumors circulated in Austria that the EU planned to completely abolish the use of cash.] So I listened to the man for the first time and – imagine my surprise! – I was really impressed. Hofer wasn’t your typical FPÖ candidate. He didn’t display the aggressive, provocative, vindictive, snotty demeanor common to protest candidates (just look at Trump).

Twenty years ago, Hofer would have been a candidate for the conservative party. He’s from a deep black (equivalent to deep red in America) family in a little town called Pinkafeld. He joined the FPÖ early on. He emphasized his positions in a calm, self-confident manner; they were common sense, and would have been proposed in exactly the same way by any conservative politician only a decade ago.

So I looked him up: He had no known connection to any neo-Nazi organization. He was raised in a politically Christian, socially conservative family. He’s the co-author of the new FPÖ-program. He’s remarried to a geriatric nurse and he has three children. He’s a practicing Christian. After a paragliding accident almost left him paralyzed, he can now only walk with a stick. I see Norbert Hofer more in the tradition of Norbert Steger, but this remains to be seen and perhaps is only wishful thinking on my part.

In conversation with journalists and political opponents he came across conciliatory, but not obsequious, never apologetic. That impressed me the most. For example: When he was asked about his firearms in a shrill, almost hysterical tone by a female reporter he explained to her – not in a condescending way, he was very earnest and friendly – how focusing on the shot is almost meditative. The expression on the face of the reporter was priceless. He was good-natured overall. This is a conservative man through and through, with a conservative temperament and demeanor. If he’s a co-author of his party program, it means he is not only the front-man, with a friendly face, but also one of the brains behind the party. “I have to take a closer look at the FPÖ as they are now,” I thought to myself. That’s what I’ve been doing in my spare time since when I am not writing emails to you explaining why I voted FPÖ.

Do you see the difference?

image002 image005

 

*************

I asked Lilibellt many more questions — about the migrant crisis, human trafficking, Turkish immigrants in Austria, Merkel, Putin, and other issues in Austrian and European politics. We also discussed the similarities and differences between the Austrian and the American electoral campaign. We’ll post these exchanges in the coming days.

In the meantime, please do ask her any questions you have about what things look like from Vienna. And please contribute if you’d like me to get out of my armchair and do my own reporting from Austria: Lilibellt and I are in complete agreement that far too few journalists are doing this, particularly along the migrant trail.

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  1. Freesmith Member
    Freesmith
    @

    Claire

    The NY Times article you linked to was tendentious, left-wing twaddle, written with the well-trained eye of a reporter who probably has a couple of failed novels in the closet.

    I won’t call it propaganda – the term I prefer for such patronizing pablum is “morale-conditioning.”

    • #31
  2. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Jason Turner:

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    Jason Turner: Europe must close it’s borders

    Europe, though is not a country. Nor is it an island-nation under a single government. If it were, all of these questions would be much simpler.

    No one is in charge of “Europe.” It’s a geographic area, not a country.

    I understand that, and it won’t be easy but the EU and it’s member nations have to at least try something different to what they are doing now, things won’t improve if you keep repeating the same mistakes.

    I will come back to read this amazing post because the answer may be here – but the comment “no one is in charge of Europe” – is that part of the problem with the rise of extremist views – because you have the EU (centralized in some ways), yet individual countries have different challenges not being addressed by the collective hive. They have one foot in one way of governing and the other in their respective country’s interest.

    • #32
  3. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    The Reticulator: Thank you. It does make more sense, but I’m also a bit disappointed that there isn’t really a group in Austria that can be classified as “politically Christian, socially conservative.” I was expecting to get some good brain exercise learning about that.

    That one’s on me — sorry, Lilibellt, editorial fail. I should have looked that up. The name of Merkel’s party is usually translated as “Christian Democrat,” and this is what’s meant by it.

    That’s right, but the CSU joined forces with the CDU as one parliamentary group in the Bundestag, in the 50’s I think. The CSU runs only in Bavaria, but could theoretically run nationwide. This possibility could become reality if Merkel’s approval ratings keep on declining and she doesn’t change course, rumors have it, that Seehofer (the leader of the CSU), who is also shortly mentioned in the New York Times article you linked to, is thinking about it.

    • #33
  4. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Tenacious D:

    lilibellt:

    Flagg Taylor:Can Lilibellt give Ricochet a brief sketch of the spectrum of political parties that are reasonably competitive? Names + principles and a policy position or tendency.

    Sorry for only copying and pasting from wikipedia, but I am on the way to an appointment. It’s working time here in Europe.

    austrian parties

    I’d forgotten about Team Stronach until I saw this list. How are they received in Austria, Lilibellt? The Stronach family is prominent in Canada due to their industrial interests. Also, Mr. Stronach’s daughter is a politician in Canada. She switched parties from the Conservatives to the Liberals during a session of parliament.

    I’ve totally forgotten about him, too, because his party is virtually non-existent in the public eye. His election posters were very well done though (like for a whiskey brand), I remember now. He took away votes from the FPÖ in the last parliamentary elections, but lost interest in Austrian politics soon after and – I guess- returned to Canada. The party has 6 MPs right now, but it is said they are running out of Canadian money. I doubt they will be in the parliament after the next elections.

    Slowly it dawns on me, Austria had a billionaire running for office first.

    • #34
  5. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Zafar:Thanks for emerging Lilibellt – we’re all enriched by it.

    So very kind of you, thank you.

    • #35
  6. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: No one is in charge of “Europe.” It’s a geographic area, not a country.

    Yes, understood; but it’s a geographic area laden with countries that seem to be blind to the invasion they are facing.  The “400 migrants drowning” meme blames Europeans for their deaths.  Which perhaps is true.  If the Italian, French and Greek authorities had treated the first ground swell of invaders *as invaders*, with arrest and repatriation to their nations of origin, the current flood would never have been established.  Muslim invaders are coming to Europe because they know that they can.  It’s not too late to correct that.  And it’s compassionate to steer “refugees” to refuges that are culturally sympathetic to them, rather than to a recently-Christian, still Western continent.

    • #36
  7. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Marine Le Pen’s rejection of her father has helped with French anti-Semitism. Hofer’s party needs to be doing the same sort of thing. Without a hard demonstration of the total rejection of Fascist beliefs, it is immensely concerning that anyone with an SS past is involved in government.

    Jim, you are right. It is painful to talk about such things as a quid pro quo. But – even in Austria – not many people know, that you could find those who committed these unspeakable crimes not only in the FPÖ, but in all Austrian parties at the time, the societies of Germany and Austria were contaminated with perpetrators. It is an all to willingly left out secret, that after the murdering and slaughtering of the most intelligent members of the Austrian population in concentration camps by their fellow citizens, the remaining elites were needed in government, in the administration and also in the economy, because there weren’t simply enough innocent people with the required skillset left, that is the hard truth.

    • #37
  8. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Freesmith:Claire

    The NY Times article you linked to was tendentious, left-wing twaddle, written with the well-trained eye of a reporter who probably has a couple of failed novels in the closet.

    I won’t call it propaganda – the term I prefer for such patronizing pablum is “morale-conditioning.”

    I have to agree.

    • #38
  9. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Poindexter:

    lilibellt: In the past it didn’t even cross my mind to leave comments, because my English knowledge is average at best.

    Don’t worry; the English of the average English speaker is…average!

    Seriously, thanks for taking the time and effort to help us out.

    Very encouraging, thank you.

    • #39
  10. Peter Robinson Contributor
    Peter Robinson
    @PeterRobinson

    Claire and Lilibellt,this is absolutely fascinating. I just love this epistolary form of journalism–I’ve never seen anything quite like this, but it works–and you provide far more useful more information right here, in this one set of exchanges, than a reader could get from reading newspapers in this country for a month. Thanks.

    • #40
  11. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    lilibellt:

    Marine Le Pen’s rejection of her father has helped with French anti-Semitism. Hofer’s party needs to be doing the same sort of thing. Without a hard demonstration of the total rejection of Fascist beliefs, it is immensely concerning that anyone with an SS past is involved in government.

    Jim, you are right. It is painful to talk about such things as a quid pro quo. But – even in Austria – not many people know, that you could find those who committed these unspeakable crimes not only in the FPÖ, but in all Austrian parties at the time, the societies of Germany and Austria were contaminated with perpetrators. It is an all to willingly left out secret, that after the murdering and slaughtering of the most intelligent members of the Austrian population in concentration camps by their fellow citizens, the remaining elites were needed in government, in the administration and also in the economy, because there weren’t simply enough innocent people with the required skillset left, that is the hard truth.

    Lilibellt,

    There is nothing we can do to change the past. We can only try to do the best we can with what Gd gives us. Let Hofer not change a single policy position. Let him stand up to the EU intimidation. However, he must openly reject anti-Semitism. If he does he will become a leader in Europe. The EU must be forced to stop the madness on immigration and mindless multiculturalism. The EU must be forced to open itself up to democratic checks and balances on its power. Otherwise, Britain ought to lead a group of Nations out of the EU. They can set up a rival trading block and give the EU a run for its money. Literally.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #41
  12. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Doctor Robert: Yes, understood; but it’s a geographic area laden with countries that seem to be blind to the invasion they are facing. The “400 migrants drowning” meme blames Europeans for their deaths. Which perhaps is true. If the Italian, French and Greek authorities had treated the first ground swell of invaders *as invaders*, with arrest and repatriation to their nations of origin, the current flood would never have been established. Muslim invaders are coming to Europe because they know that they can. It’s not too late to correct that. And it’s compassionate to steer “refugees” to refuges that are culturally sympathetic to them, rather than to a recently-Christian, still Western continent.

    But they are not invaders. The strongest general charge that could be made is that some may not have a legitimate claim to asylum under the Geneva convention. Many of them assuredly do. To treat refugees as “invaders” is sick-minded. And what do you mean by saying refugees can be shunted to “culturally sympathetic cultures?” Are you aware of the numbers of Syrian refugees who have fled — and been given refuge — in neighboring countries?

    • #42
  13. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: But they are not invaders. The strongest general charge that could be made is that some may not have a legitimate claim to asylum under the Geneva convention. Many of them assuredly do. To treat refugees as “invaders” is sick-minded. And what do you mean by saying refugees can be shunted to “culturally sympathetic cultures?” Are you aware of the numbers of Syrian refugees who have fled — and been given refuge — in neighboring countries?

    When you have Merkel letting them in (no consultation of coalition partners) and they have to go through other EU countries to get there, it’s not an invasion when they were not wanted there in the first place? When you have Merkel telling other EU countries how many they have to take, it’s not an invasion?

    They’re coming through Greece  which has problems enough some of which Merkel has manufactured. Why shouldn’t Greece think it’s an invasion?

    I’m well aware how many Syrians are in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. I’m also well aware that most of the refugees going to the EU aren’t Syrians and are pawns being used by Erdogan to obtain things he otherwise would not get.

    • #43
  14. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    We wanted to present this in a logical order, and this is skipping ahead, but … from today’s news. “Hofer: ‘Kosovo is Part of Serbia.” Lilibellts, tell me how this is sane and conservative. If Austria can’t accommodate more refugees, it’s pretty unwise to get on the Serbian-nationalist revisionist train, don’t you think? I assume this is pure pandering for the domestic Serbian crowd, but that is a hornet’s nest.

    • #44
  15. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    What I don’t understand about this election is that it seemed to be entirely symbolic in that the office had virtually no power. (Am I wrong?) So I don’t understand why if Hofer did or did not win, it was such a big deal. What I know about the election is mainly through German press (die Welt, die Zeit is what I read every day and occasionally Frankfurter Allgemeine) and no Austrian press.

    • #45
  16. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    The New York Times article was okay, but when the reporter checked out the stammtisch talk of government cover-up of crime statistics by calling up the government up and asking them, I though “I’m glad he investigated the hell out of that one.”

    I do not know who to believe anymore. Present company excepted, of course.

    • #46
  17. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    James Gawron:Lilibellt,

    There is nothing we can do to change the past. We can only try to do the best we can with what Gd gives us. Let Hofer not change a single policy position. Let him stand up to the EU intimidation. However, he must openly reject anti-Semitism. If he does he will become a leader in Europe. The EU must be forced to stop the madness on immigration and mindless multiculturalism. The EU must be forced to open itself up to democratic checks and balances on its power. Otherwise, Britain ought to lead a group of Nations out of the EU. They can set up a rival trading block and give the EU a run for its money. Literally.

    Regards,

    Jim

    Jim,

    I don’t want to anticipate the other posts, Claire is busy preparing, but one of the basic prerequisites for me to be able to vote for the FPÖ in the first place was their position on Israel. HC Strache visited Israel 5 times since 2002 to normalize relationships (the reason of the existing tensions goes back to the ÖVP-FPÖ-government in 2000, when – even so only for a short period of time – Israel withdrew her ambassador from Austria). The FPÖ also stated their unequivocal recognition of Israel’s right to exist. Still it’s true, Israel to this day doesn’t maintain official relationships with the FPÖ…cont.

    • #47
  18. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    … And as a side note, the President in Austria is not the leader of the government, that would be the Chancellor like in Germany. His role is mostly ceremonial, even though he is commander in Chief and can recall the government (which never happened), but not the parliament. Perhaps Claire and I should have put this first. So the election of Hofer wouldn’t have resulted in immediate changes in policies. His role would have been that of an observer and an advocate for the people (therefore it is the only election in Austria, in which you vote for a person instead of a party). Considering this it seems even more curious that politicians and media all around Europe were so upset about a potential FPÖ win.

    It is unfortunately not very likely, that the head of the FPÖ – Strache – will cede his place on top of the ticket to Hofer in the coming parliamentary elections. And Strache is no Haider and a whole different story.

    • #48
  19. Tenacious D Inactive
    Tenacious D
    @TenaciousD

    lilibellt:I’ve totally forgotten about him, too, because his party is virtually non-existent in the public eye. His election posters were very well done though (like for a whiskey brand), I remember now. He took away votes from the FPÖ in the last parliamentary elections, but lost interest in Austrian politics soon after and – I guess- returned to Canada. The party has 6 MPs right now, but it is said they are running out of Canadian money. I doubt they will be in the parliament after the next elections.

    Slowly it dawns on me, Austria had a billionaire running for office first.

    Interesting, thanks!

    • #49
  20. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Hang On: most of the refugees going to the EU aren’t Syrians and are pawns being used by Erdogan

    “aren’t Syrians” and “they’re pawns used by Erdogan?” Do you think Erdogan is flying Eritreans to Greece?

    • #50
  21. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    lilibellt:… And as a side note, the President in Austria is not the leader of the government, that would be the Chancellor like in Germany. His role is mostly ceremonial, even though he is commander in Chief and can recall the government (which never happened), but not the parliament. Perhaps Claire and I should have put this first. So the election of Hofer wouldn’t have resulted in immediate changes in policies. His role would have been that of an observer and an advocate for the people (therefore it is the only election in Austria, in which you vote for a person instead of a party). Considering this it seems even more curious that politicians and media all around Europe were so upset about a potential FPÖ win.

    It is unfortunately not very likely, that the head of the FPÖ – Strache – will cede his place on top of the ticket to Hofer in the coming parliamentary elections. And Strache is no Haider and a whole different story.

    Lili,

    Thanks, you are bringing me up to speed on Austria. What do you think of the Serbian problem Claire was talking about?

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #51
  22. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:We wanted to present this in a logical order, and this is skipping ahead, but … from today’s news. “Hofer: ‘Kosovo is Part of Serbia.” Lilibellts, tell me how this is sane and conservative. If Austria can’t accommodate more refugees, it’s pretty unwise to get on the Serbian-nationalist revisionist train, don’t you think? I assume this is pure pandering for the domestic Serbian crowd, but that is a hornet’s nest.

    Hofer hasn’t issued a statement yet, I would like to wait to hear more, right now it is all over the Austrian news.

    Hmm, I voted for Hofer, yes, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a spokeswoman-like position so to speak. If you ask me if I would consider such a statement to be conservative, the answer is no. I would also be careful to read too much of political pandering into it, because my fellow countrymen don’t appreciate it very much (to put it mildly) when Austrian politicians are interfering in foreign affairs. The potential votes won can quickly turn into more votes lost than gained. If there is one thing close to the heart of Austrians, it’s their state’s neutrality, believe me.

    Let’s wait and see.

    • #52
  23. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: “aren’t Syrians” and “they’re pawns used by Erdogan?” Do you think Erdogan is flying Eritreans to Greece?

    Hard to take that comment seriously.

    There are Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis who are coming overland. It’s a good business for some as people save up money to hire groups to get them to Turkey.

    • #53
  24. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Percival: I do not know who to believe anymore.

    That’s healthy, I think. This is an incredibly complex problem full of real moral dilemmas and uncertainty.

    • #54
  25. lilibellt Inactive
    lilibellt
    @lilibellt

    lilibellt:… And as a side note, the President in Austria is not the leader of the government, that would be the Chancellor like in Germany. His role is mostly ceremonial, even though he is commander in Chief and can recall the government (which never happened), but not the parliament. Perhaps Claire and I should have put this first. So the election of Hofer wouldn’t have resulted in immediate changes in policies. His role would have been that of an observer and an advocate for the people (therefore it is the only election in Austria, in which you vote for a person instead of a party). Considering this it seems even more curious that politicians and media all around Europe were so upset about a potential FPÖ win.

    It is unfortunately not very likely, that the head of the FPÖ – Strache – will cede his place on top of the ticket to Hofer in the coming parliamentary elections. And Strache is no Haider and a whole different story.

    Ups … I meant to say, Strache is no Haider to be sure, but he is no Hofer either and a whole different story.

    • #55
  26. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Hang On: There are Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis who are coming overland. It’s a good business for some as people save up money to hire groups to get them to Turkey.

    So you think Erdoğan is bringing Pakistani, Afghani, and Iraqi refugees to Turkey to use them as pawns to … what? I cede to no one in my skepticism of Erdoğan, I lived under his governance for a decade, but this is the kind of conspiracy theory you usually hear reserved for the United States or Israel. Turkey as the global superpower that’s secretly pulling the strings behind every major geopolitical conflict? Not in your wildest Ottoman-revivalist’s dreams. If you want to track down the human traffickers, I’ve heard, seriatum, that they’re Turks, Kurds, Russians, Greeks, Iraqis, Libyans … and I’ll bet they’re all of them, too.

    • #56
  27. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    lilibellt:

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:We wanted to present this in a logical order, and this is skipping ahead, but … from today’s news. “Hofer: ‘Kosovo is Part of Serbia.” Lilibellts, tell me how this is sane and conservative. If Austria can’t accommodate more refugees, it’s pretty unwise to get on the Serbian-nationalist revisionist train, don’t you think? I assume this is pure pandering for the domestic Serbian crowd, but that is a hornet’s nest.

    Hofer hasn’t issued a statement yet, I would like to wait to hear more, right now it is all over the Austrian news.

    Hmm, I voted for Hofer, yes, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a spokeswoman-like position so to speak. If you ask me if I would consider such a statement to be conservative, the answer is no. I would also be careful to read too much of political pandering into it, because my fellow countrymen don’t appreciate it very much (to put it mildly) when Austrian politicians are interfering in foreign affairs. The potential votes won can quickly turn into more votes lost than gained. If there is one thing close to the heart of Austrians, it’s their state’s neutrality, believe me.

    Let’s wait and see.

    Lily,

    He might do well to offer you the job.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #57
  28. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    lilibellt: If there is one thing close to the heart of Austrians, it’s their state’s neutrality, believe me.

    That’s what I’d guess. What do you think were the effects on Austria of being so pivotal to the Cold War?

    • #58
  29. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: So you think Erdoğan is bringing Pakistani, Afghani, and Iraqi refugees to Turkey to use them as pawns to … what? I cede to no one in my skepticism of Erdoğan, I lived under his governance for a decade, but this is the kind of conspiracy theory you usually hear reserved for the United States or Israel. Turkey as the global superpower that’s secretly pulling the strings behind every major geopolitical conflict? Not in your wildest Ottoman-revivalist’s dreams. If you want to track down the human traffickers, I’ve heard, seriatum, that they’re Turks, Kurds, Russians, Greeks, Iraqis, Libyans … and I’ll bet they’re all of them, too.

    Of course not. You said it in your last sentence. It’s different groups of people for different parts of the journey. The overland gangs and not the gangs with the boats. More payments have to be made.

    Turkey is the last step before they get to the EU. They have to make an additional payment. For many, the money has run out and they are stuck until they can get more money. Camps open and close. You can read this in the German press. One or two stories per week. Also stories of people deciding to go back.

    Erdogan has not planned this. But there are a couple of million there from all over. And he can use that as blackmail against the EU.

    • #59
  30. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Hang On: Erdogan has not planned this.

    That’s the key sentence.

    But there are a couple of million there from all over. And he can use that as blackmail against the EU.

    Only in so far as the EU doesn’t want these people. Turkey doesn’t, either. If Turkey was able to control smuggling over the Iraqi border, it wouldn’t be bleeding out in the southeast, would it? Does that look like a country that’s got a firm handle on who’s coming over the border to you? It’s much less that Turkey is blackmailing Europe than that Europe is willing to overlook any human rights outrage in Turkey to make the refugee problem “disappear.” It’s a morally bankrupt and very short-sighted policy, because in the long run, helping Turkey to become a monster is in no European’s interest. But since there’s no common European foreign policy, there’s also no policy that makes any sense toward Turkey, and never has been.

    • #60
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