The Case for Marriage

 

Writing about the decline of marriage is the center-right’s bread and butter, and for good reason: The connection between the marriage rate and society’s overall health is so obvious that even academia seems to have trouble avoiding the evidence. And while there are specific (albeit important) matters of disagreement among conservatives — same sex marriage, what to do about the too-high divorce rate, etc. — it’s safe to say we’re all on the same team in terms of wanting a society with a healthier and more robust attitude toward marriage. The trick is figuring out how to nudge things in that direction.

Toward that end, Prager University has produced a video pitching marriage to a male audience, arguing that marriage is not only in society’s best interest, but also in that of individual men: i.e., that getting married often brings real material and social rewards to men, in addition to those provided by and through their wives.

The video makes its (intentionally) narrow case fairly well, and — for what it’s worth — I’ve personally experienced the effects it discusses. Still, it left me wondering how to explain the existence of a great many eligible bachelors on Ricochet, many of whom have explicitly stated their interest in marrying. If the decline in marriage is largely a function of the loss of masculine virtue in an age of arrested development, these guys should be fighting off ladies with a stick. And yet, they exist.

If the need to make the case for marriage to men is obvious (and important), have we neglected the importance of making it to women? If so, what’s would that look like?

Published in Culture, Marriage
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  1. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: If the need to make the case for marriage to men is obvious (and important), have we neglected the importance of making it to women? If so, what’s would that look like?

    That may be part of it. If she can earn enough to live, what does she need a man for? And if the gub’mint pays for her birth control…

    There is also the whole hot/crazy matrix factor that may be keeping some of our eligible bachelors from matrimony.

    • #1
  2. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Efforts to make the cost benefit analysis of marriage look favorable for men always fail to account for the costs of every thing you lose if your marriage fails.  Considering that about half of them fail, it would seem reasonable to weigh these costs.

    Videos like this always strike me as borderline dishonest when they don’t even raise the issue.

    • #2
  3. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    I get that there is a strategy of not calling attention to the weak points of your argument, but young men have seen their fathers and brothers and friends get hosed in divorces initiated by their wives.  You can’t act like they don’t know the score.

    If you make the affirmative case for marriage, arguments for why the risks are worth it should be present.

    • #3
  4. Merina Smith Inactive
    Merina Smith
    @MerinaSmith

    I think a lot of our worthy men here regard the whole game as a minefield.  And in a way it is.  No one knows what to expect any more, what the other person expects, how to get where one wants to go, and how to avoid being deeply hurt in the process.  The narrative that once told young people how to date, court and get married has been nearly destroyed, as has the narrative of what marriage is and how it should be maintained through thick and thin.  Making sex part of it all from the get-go certainly muddies the waters, but there are a whole host of reasons, no-fault divorce among them.

    • #4
  5. Tom Meyer, Ed. Member
    Tom Meyer, Ed.
    @tommeyer

    Frank Soto:Efforts to make the cost benefit analysis of marriage look favorable for men always fail to account for the costs of every thing you lose if your marriage fails. Considering that about half of them fail, it would seem reasonable to weigh these costs.

    Videos like this always strike me as borderline dishonest when they don’t even raise the issue.

    That’s a more than fair point; if nothing else, a pitch can’t work that elides major concerns.

    • #5
  6. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Frank Soto: Efforts to make the cost benefit analysis of marriage look favorable for men always fail to account for the costs of every thing you lose if your marriage fails. Considering that about half of them fail, it would seem reasonable to weigh these costs.

    Here is a more complex look at divorce rates. Note that whether or not one needs to worry about divorce can be estimated by a variety of factors.

    Basically, a couple with traditional values regarding sex and marriage is unlikely to divorce.

    • #6
  7. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    If you have never seen the story called Demographic Winter, I think parts one and two are on You Tube, it is worth watching. They require a little time, but the research was done by sociologists.  The influence that marriage (or lack of) has throughout society, including as you said, the health of it, can’t be understated.

    We also live in a society that does not support marriage, but champions the opposite. Once upon a time, clergy, friends, relatives rallied around a struggling couple, counseled, offered support. Now people side with the grievances instead of resolution. Also, no fault divorce opened a door making it too easy.

    Marriage is hard – not for the faint-hearted and unless you understand the foundation, where it came from, that it is a holy union and you seek the other’s well being, it won’t work. Sometimes it doesn’t work anyway, but I don’t think these things are taught anymore. We are also a more isolated culture socially (the iPhone and apps have replaced real connections), and a culture without consequences.

    • #7
  8. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Frank Soto:I get that there is a strategy of not calling attention to the weak points of your argument, but young men have seen their fathers and brothers and friends get hosed in divorces initiated by their wives. You can’t act like they don’t know the score.

    If you make the affirmative case for marriage, arguments for why the risks are worth it should be present.

    I’ve been married for 29 years but I understand why younger men are reluctant to get married. The young couple next door had 2 kids, then she kicked him out. Now he visits once in a while, pays child support, and looks completely emasculated. Who wants to take a chance on that?

    David Blankenhorn covered all this in Fatherless America back in the 90’s.

    • #8
  9. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:Toward that end, Prager University has produced a video pitching marriage to a male audience, arguing that marriage is not only in society’s best interest, but also in that of individual men: i.e., that getting married often brings real material and social rewards to men, in addition to those provided by and through their wives.

    I’ve seen marriages that have lasted happily for decades. I’ve seen people married for decades who definitely should have split up years ago. I’ve seen, and heard, real horror stories about marriage that would make any sensible young lad flee the area around the church, justice of the peace or judge faster than Indy can outrace a boulder.

    • #9
  10. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    There is an old joke about a son coming home from school:

    Father: What did you learn in school today?

    Son: We were talking about other cultures. There are some cultures where the groom doesn’t even know the bride until they get married.

    Father: That’s every country, son, and every marriage.

    • #10
  11. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    The video lists way more reasons why marriage is good for society than reasons why marriage is good for a randomly-selected male individual.

    “Be a man” is only a good persuader if you can also convince the randomly-selected male individual that being a man is in his best interest within a 21st century matriarchy.

    “You’ll make more money, but you’ll incur way more expenses and responsibilities, and expose yourself to lifelong legal liabilities regardless of the success or failure of the marriage,” does not strike me as particularly persuasive messaging.

    “Marriage is good because it isolates you from your friends and eliminates your private interests!” Seriously? That’s supposed to be a persuasive argument?

    Everything in the video is no doubt true. It’s simply dissuasive rather than persuasive.

    All the facts about the benefits of marriage for men are based on statistics gathered in the past, when North America wasn’t a collection of matriarchies whose legal and cultural systems are stacked against male individuals.

    To persuade, one needs to show that the extra benefits outweigh the extra costs. This may be possible in theory, but this particular video fails spectacularly to achieve that goal.

    • #11
  12. Matthew Roy Inactive
    Matthew Roy
    @MatthewRoy

    Based on my personal anecdotes from dating and talking with female friends, the objection I hear most often to getting married and starting families is based on not wanting to give up career life or some notion of independence.

    In making the case for marriage to women, I think it is important to emphasize that a husband will (or should) encourage you and support you in pursuing a career. If/when kids become a factor, rearing kids is a more important, satisfying pursuit than your careers, and you can still work should you desire. Basically, being wife doesn’t mean the end of your independence and ambition.

    • #12
  13. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Aaron Miller:

    Frank Soto: Efforts to make the cost benefit analysis of marriage look favorable for men always fail to account for the costs of every thing you lose if your marriage fails. Considering that about half of them fail, it would seem reasonable to weigh these costs.

    Here is a more complex look at divorce rates. Note that whether or not one needs to worry about divorce can be estimated by a variety of factors.

    It’s true that young people are divorcing at a lower rate than their parents, but I strongly suspect this correlates to the decline in people marrying at all.

    Basically, a couple with traditional values regarding sex and marriage is unlikely to divorce.

    Divorce rates among Christians and the general population are not drastically different.

    • #13
  14. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    I have a friend whose wife took him to the cleaners. It broke him.

    He eventually put his life back together, and went back to court to enforce the joint custody of their one son.

    What did the judge do? Give the ex-wife full custody, maximum child support, and told the father he could see his son two weeks a year.

    I read the entire court finding (75 pages). And I know that any judge could do the same number on me and mine. For men with kids, divorce often means that all that will be left is pain.

    • #14
  15. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Arahant:

    Son: We were talking about other cultures. There are some cultures where the groom doesn’t even know the bride until they get married.

    Father: That’s every country, son, and every marriage.

    I tend to disagree. Find a woman who has given up on convincing a man to marry her. a) She’s more likely to show you something closer to her true self, and b) She’ll be that much more delighted when you actually do pop the question.

    I have great affinity for women who have given up (as opposed to those who never aspired in the first place, who should be avoided). A deflated balloon doesn’t fly away.

    ;-)

    • #15
  16. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Frank Soto:

    Aaron Miller:

    Basically, a couple with traditional values regarding sex and marriage is unlikely to divorce.

    Divorce rates among Christians and the general population are not drastically different.

    I’d wager that rates of “traditional” vs. “modern” values among Christians and the general population are also not drastically different, if only I didn’t think it would be impossible to adequately measure this hypothesis statistically.

    • #16
  17. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Misthiocracy: I tend to disagree.

    So, how many marriages have you experienced?

    • #17
  18. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Misthiocracy: A deflated balloon doesn’t fly away.

    Man, that is depressing.

    • #18
  19. Frozen Chosen Inactive
    Frozen Chosen
    @FrozenChosen

    Pornography is taking a huge toll on marriage in this country.  Those who suffer from this addiction – primarily men – lose the ability to have a healthy relationship with the opposite sex.  Not many women want to be married to a porn addict because of the tremendous emotional and physical strain it puts on the relationship.

    This pernicious plague has obviously increased with the arrival of the internet and it is no coincidence that marriage – and society – has suffered as a result.  It’s not the only factor challenging marriage right now but it’s a big one.

    • #19
  20. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Arahant:

    Misthiocracy: I tend to disagree.

    So, how many marriages have you experienced?

    As a participant or as an observer?

    ;-)

    • #20
  21. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    iWe:

    Misthiocracy: A deflated balloon doesn’t fly away.

    Man, that is depressing.

    True.

    • #21
  22. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Misthiocracy:

    Arahant:

    Son: We were talking about other cultures. There are some cultures where the groom doesn’t even know the bride until they get married.

    Father: That’s every country, son, and every marriage.

    I tend to disagree. Find a woman who has given up on convincing a man to marry her. a) She’s more likely to show you something closer to her true self, and b) She’ll be that much more delighted when you actually do pop the question.

    I have great affinity for women who have given up (as opposed to those who never aspired in the first place, who should be avoided). A deflated balloon doesn’t fly away.

    ;-)

    Any man here who has been married a while can tell you that you don’t really know your wife until you have been married for some time. If you think there is a way to “game” that and get a look at her real self before you are married – the only one you are kidding is yourself.

    Marriage is an enormous existential risk, which is why the cultural support structures are so important. Given that they are now stacked against men, I don’t blame young men for not marrying.

    • #22
  23. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Misthiocracy: As a participant or as an observer?

    Participant?

    • #23
  24. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    J Climacus: Marriage is an enormous existential risk…

    That precisely why my argument that it’s most suitable for those who have given up on existence is so persuasive!

    ;-)

    • #24
  25. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    J Climacus: Any man here who has been married a while can tell you that you don’t really know your wife until you have been married for some time. If you think there is a way to “game” that and get a look at her real self before you are married – the only one you are kidding is yourself.

    Amen, brother. Preach it!

    Ladies, feel free to speak up if you feel the same about your husbands.

    • #25
  26. Merina Smith Inactive
    Merina Smith
    @MerinaSmith

    I’d like to speak up for the ladies though. I have a terrific daughter, smart, attractive, funny, a good cook and talented with interior design and all kinds of homemaking skills.  She really has a hard time finding men to date who are interested in marriage.  Many are interested in sex, however, which she isn’t interested in until marriage.  She just wants to do it all the old-fashioned way but is having a very hard time finding men who want that too.  But then she lives in DC, so that is part of the problem.  She also doesn’t want to marry someone who is into porn.  But this is all part of the problem of not having a narrative any more that leads to marriage. Dating and courtship used to be about getting married.  Any more, it is too often about sex, and if you’re not into that game before marriage, how do you find someone like yourself?  It’s not exactly the kind of thing you put on your profile, and you can’t assume it any more even on the Christian sites.

    • #26
  27. Frozen Chosen Inactive
    Frozen Chosen
    @FrozenChosen

    After 30 years of marriage, I’ve learned that the key to staying together is learning to live with your spouse’s faults.  Hoping you can change yourself is a good goal but be prepared for glacial time frames. Thinking you can change your spouse is foolhardy in the extreme.

    If you can tolerate your spouse’s shortcomings and they your’s then, bingo! Chances are you’ll stay married – and be happy.

    • #27
  28. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Merina Smith: She really has a hard time finding men to date who are interested in marriage. Many are interested in sex, however, which she isn’t interested in until marriage.

    What’s her policy on older men who have given up on existence? I’m asking for a friend.

    ;-)

    (Henry VIII’s happiest marriage was with Catherine Parr. Something to think about.)

    • #28
  29. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Merina Smith:I’d like to speak up for the ladies though. I have a terrific daughter, smart, attractive, funny, a good cook and talented with interior design and all kinds of homemaking skills. She really has a hard time finding men to date who are interested in marriage. Many are interested in sex, however, which she isn’t interested in until marriage. She just wants to do it all the old-fashioned way but is having a very hard time finding men who want that too. But then she lives in DC, so that is part of the problem. She also doesn’t want to marry someone who is into porn. But this is all part of the problem of not having a narrative any more that leads to marriage. Dating and courtship used to be about getting married. Any more, it is too often about sex, and if you’re not into that game before marriage, how do you find someone like yourself>

    Women probably do have a harder time finding a good man to marry than men do finding a good woman to marry.  If the marriage and sex markets have been disconnected, men have the advantage.

    This thread has focused on divorce as it is an area where the law generally protects women and brutalizes men.  Although when you think about it, divorce law hurts single women as it makes men even less likely to marry.  So I guess everyone suffers.

    • #29
  30. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    screenshot.21

    I was struck by this statistic, because the cohort that married at 23 in 1960 is also the cohort that allowed the divorce rate to peak in 1979/1980.

    As the average marriage age has gone up, the divorce rate has gone down.

    Of course, correlation is not causation, and yet…

    • #30
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