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Do You Believe in Fate?
By Ephraim Moses Lilien אפרים משה ליליין.
In my most recent post, I shared my life-changing experience of sharing the beginning of Pesach with the iWe family. As part of that special time, they invited a rabbi — iWe’s study partner — for lunch one day. A Chassid with a twinkle in his eye, he sat across the table from me, and his wit, intelligence and humor were evident from the start.
At some point during lunch, the rabbi asked me if I believed in fate. I told him that I didn’t, that I believed in free will which would contradict the concept of fate. Then he asked if G-d knew what choices I would make and I said that I felt G-d could know those choices, if He wished to know. He then pointed out that if G-d knew what my future held, how could I have free will? Was my life not pre-destined? I was silent. He assured me warmly that we didn’t need to pursue that discussion, but I realized it was something I wanted to give a lot of thought.
It’s only been a few days since, and I’m still thinking through the possibilities and implications of G-d’s knowing our future, even though there is no fate.
The first thing I realized is that it’s impossible for us to know what is in the mind of G-d, what G-d is capable of, or what G-d chooses to do at any given time. G-d is beyond space and time. So for us to insist on our understanding of the workings of G-d is to suggest that we are equal to G-d, and I know darn well I’m not!
But since I believe in G-d’s omnipotence — and since I am incapable of identifying what G-d is capable of or what G-d knows — it’s not a stretch for me to live with the paradox that we have free will and that G-d knows our future. Again, we simply cannot define or understand the mind of G-d. Whether this is in concert with traditional Jewish thought, I have no idea, but it makes sense to me.
Whether you are an atheist, agnostic, or religious person, it’s an intriguing question:
Do you believe in fate?
Published in General
No I don’t believe in fate, yes I believe in free will and that G-d knows our futures. The reason for this is that I believe an all knowing, all powerful G-d knows every decision we can make and every resulting future caused by that decision. The final decision I do make G-d could force, but chooses not to.
So, I see no contradiction in free will and G-d knowing our future.
Susan – for the record: I may not look the part, but I consider myself a Przysucha Chasid – or at least heavily influenced by the school of thought. See here.
Our guest, MW, is much more interested in the kabbalah though he is, in his own way, really a free-range Chasid.
To answer the question: I do not believe in fate at all. We make our own futures. G-d knows all possible futures, but we get to freely choose our path.
But the above comes with a codicil: our lives are self-fulfilling. Those who believe in fate are doomed to live lives that are far more constrained than those of us who believe we are gifted by G-d with creative powers that can touch the infinite plane.
In other words, we are, to an extent that few people recognize, limited more by our beliefs than by anything else.
I couldn’t agree more. I see so many people who make so many excuses for doing so little with their talents. It’s a loss to them and to the world.
Well, let’s see – I’m a conservative Christian steeped in the Dutch Calvinist tradition. I’m also a nerd, who has some degrees in science. And I have a degree in English and religion, and I cut my teeth on scifi and fantasy. I’ve spent most of my life mulling this over, and this is what I settled on:
I believe in predestination, in an omnipotent God Who has a plan for His creation, and is actively at work in the world to accomplish His ends. His ends are good, and cannot be turned aside.
I believe that every individual has free will, and is responsible for the choices they make. Our actions have meaning, and we will be held to account for them.
I also believe that this is not a contradiction, for two reasons. First, I just take it on faith that it is not a contradiction. When you’re confronted with paradoxical beliefs that are beyond your ken, sometimes that’s just the best way to deal with it.
Second, I do have a rough idea of how they can be reconciled, but it’s tied up with the concept of creation as an act that works across time, and how God and His creatures work together through creating to reach God’s ends. To really go into this, I’d probably have to write a small book.
Bottom line: In the tension between fate and free will, we have duty, joyful or not.
iWe, it pleases me more than it should that I had the same idea as one of the most thoughtful people on Ricochet.
This is such an important point. God wants us to continue His creation; in effect we are partners with Him, but of course not equal partners. iWe discusses this in his book.
Sigh. I’ve been on this planet almost seven decades. I’m one of 7 from a large extended family. Cousins by the barrel full. Beloved nieces and nephews. In-laws whose families I’ve observed and grown to know.
Do you believe in fate? Yes. Genetic. It circumscribes our existence. I know that seems to be stating the obvious . . but the implications are vast and ultimately unknowable.
As Annie Dillard explained in her book “Pilgrim at Tinker Creek” – we do have choices, but they are limited by our human genome and the concomitant needs and drives that result. The metaphor is that we are dropped from a plane and our trajectory is a given. During that descent we are able to choose the manner in which we spend the duration of our journey.
Spins, jack-knifes, flapping or just a graceful nose-dive. Some people are born with Einstein’s unique brain . . others are more challenged through no fault of their own. Their range of choices are vastly different.
This is why I am patient with others who are struggling to make wise choices. It’s the old adage: “Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his (genetic) moccasins.”
G-d is there at the finish to swoop us into his loving arms and smilingly pat us on the shoulder as he leads us into heaven saying: “Well done, (with what I gave you) good and faithful servant.”
A lovely comment, Trink. I think that we have genetic predispositions that can make life challenging, but I’m not sure they mean that our fate is determined. It only means that we need to find ways to deal with our limitations. For example (this will sound silly) but I’m short. I remember as a girl that I wanted to be an airline stewardess (long time ago!) and learned I wouldn’t qualify because I’m only 5’2″. That rule has changed, but clearly I found a different direction, happily. Was that fate moving me, or just a physical limitation? If you look at two people with similar serious disabilities, and one lives a life of dependency and the other is very successful in many ways, I think that would also be another example. What do you think?
Another reformed Christian here, so I do believe in fate. I also am staunchly opposed to biological determinism. Make sense of that however you like.
It isn’t that we don’t have a will, even a will that could be colloquially described as free. It’s that the will we have is constrained by our natures. Oedipus was fated to murder his father and marry his mother because his temper and his sense of duty required him to do so. He could no more have resisted that fate than he could grow wings and fly. All Apollo did was tell his parents what his temper was going to get him into.
So it is with us, as well.
Actually, from a theological standpoint it’s pretty simple. Without God there must be fate and there can be no free will, because a Godless universe must be deterministic and/or random. With God, fate is still possible but not necessary, therefore free will is also possible.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. We always, always have choices, no matter our temperament. It reminds me of people on the left (forgive my reference) who say that people with terrible upbringings can blame their genes, parenting and environment for their violent actions. That doesn’t account for those with similar upbringings who make better choices.
I’ve been reading a little C.S. Lewis lately and this reminds me of two things he mentions. The first is about God existing in a different temporal reality than we experience, an “All Time”. The second is this:
Truly Susan . . . . . I think only G-d knows.
Edit: My sense as I come away from a lifetime of observations of these large extended families . . . is that inherited personality disorders such as bi-polar disease – greatly affect one’s ability to choose wisely.
So Paula, what conclusions does that lead you to regarding fate? It sounds like you believe in fate and that we only have choices about the small decisions.
I agree with this, and I think we will find increasing evidence to support it.
Personality–how we relate to others–starts out, I think, for all of us as a complicated genetic code.
Many things override the preprogramming–faith and a desire to be moral agents for good, for example–but our beginning trajectories in life are set up by these inherited personality traits.
I also think that there is something I have always called the indominable human spirit: I have a known a few people who became very mentally ill or lost to dementia, but the person they were is still very much there.
I did not choose the circumstances of my life any more than I chose to live. However, within those circumstances I have freedom of will, given to me as a free gift from a God who loves me.
The Lord does not compel our obedience; He seeks it freely offered in love.
Oh yes, Marci. Yes.
Of course we have choices. That isn’t the question. Oedipus had choices. The question is whether we make them or whether the choices reveal our character. That a person’s temperament makes them prone to violent outbursts doesn’t make them less responsible for those outbursts. No one held a gun to Oedipus’ head when he killed Laius, it was his own pride and arrogance that caused it.
That pride was there at his birth. Of course it was going to result in the kind of life he had.
As I said to Trink, I’m not at all denying the effect of pre-programming and genes, even in my own life. But your second point, our choice of overriding those inherent factors, is key.
No!
No – although I believe God knows our choices before we make them, being omniscient and outside time, I believe He lets us make our own choices throughout our life.
I think of you as very tall – maybe its your personality! :-)
So your comment raises the issue of character. I assume that Oedipus’ choice to kill reveals a lack of character. Demonstrating character shows our willingness or desire to defy our inclinations or predispositions. So can drawing on our character defy the fates?
This is precisely how the Greeks view life. It is a self-fulfilling worldview – if you believe it, you are limited by it.
Susan, your above comment to Trink is very good – you see it all the time – athletes missing limbs, people with all sorts of disabilities overcoming the odds – their spirit and attitude transcends their fate of sorts.
Regarding fate, maybe God gives us guidance through His words (The Bible) followed by free will, so the outcome is determined by us, but in many ways predictable? The prophets in the Old Testament predicted certain events – how could they predict? By man’s fallen nature which can only be overcome if we follow God’s plan. Many predictions have come to pass – the current one on Russia (the King of the North) is certainly one to notice.
Joel Rosenberg has been called a modern Nostradamus because every novel he writes happens on or around the period his books are released – people are amazed, but he says it’s from reading the Bible – countries and kings, or regular people are all subject to God’s mercy and grace – if it is rejected (in keeping with free will), the outcomes seem easy to predict.
Maybe fate is wrapped in there somewhere. I can tell you that Israel and the Jewish people are God’s timepiece and the apple of His eye – the Bible says so. God revealed Himself through the Jews and little Israel is the centerpiece of history – a giant mirror held up. So I want to learn more – a book discussion from iWE sounds great.
“The unpredictable and the predetermined unfold together to make everything the way it is.”
– Tom Stoppard, Arcadia
Susan,
For me it is not so difficult a question. If one believes in a Gd that has created everything, meaning both the physical world and our souls, then it easy enough to see that Gd is beyond both. Gd has created the world and has granted us free will. Gd sees beyond both (we cannot) and if Gd so decides can end the physical world and or revoke our freedom.
Gd has neither created the physical world nor granted us our freedom for no purpose. We are to use our freedom to improve the world and thereby honor Gd. When we choose to ignore Gd by failing to improve the world and murdering each other (see the generation of Noah) then Gd will revoke our license (see the Flood) so to speak.
Pharoh has free will. He is given a chance through the first five plagues to see his sin of arrogance and let the Jews go. From the sixth plague on Gd revokes Pharoh’s free will by “hardening his heart”. There is justice in this, even though we are never fully privy to divine justice. After all, Pharoh is willing to use the Jews as slaves purely for his own ends. Gd now uses Pharoh as his human marionette to reveal Gd’s existence in the world in a spectacular way (see Cecil B. Demille).
Regards,
Jim
And therefore? You can invoke a life without limits, but if the limits are real, then simply ignoring them is a plan that ends in hair combs and eyes being combined in painful ways.
If our character were different from what it is, so too would be our fate.