The 11th Republican Debate: At This Point What Difference Does It Make?

 

Once again, I have sat through a Republican debate, the 11th according to my internet research (I personally lost count about six debates ago). We started with 17 candidates, so many that we needed two debates to fit them all in. Now, we have come down to the final four: Senator Marco Rubio, Senator Ted Cruz, Governor John Kasich, and Donald Trump. This election has turned into a hard and bitter struggle for the soul of the Republican Party, and I don’t think it can be saved. Many people seem to relish this thought, and that knowledge depresses me. The party that has fought for freedom and liberty since its inception, that won the Civil War and the Cold War, the party of William F. Buckley, is likely to hand its presidential nomination to a man who — when questioned about his own ignorance — openly cites his polls as proof of how right he is. How can anything involving this man be called a debate? I frankly don’t think anything Cruz and Rubio did tonight will really matter. Whether it’s by huge majority or slim plurality, Trump is impervious to reality so long as he’s ahead. He is powered by pure ego. Is this even a serious process?

I would go candidate-by-candidate, but I don’t really see the point when there are so few. The main story of the night is the remarkable job Rubio and Cruz did working together to take Trump down. For the most part, Rubio would set him up and Cruz would spike him down. They hit him on his use of illegal workers, Trump U, and his love of Putin. Trump dubbed them “Lying Ted” and “Little Marco” … I think we all know what will carry the day. This was probably Cruz’s best night in a debate, but  does any of it matter? It doesn’t seem to have done much until now. Both Rubio and Cruz managed to give good answers on all their questions, but that is irrelevant.

The Ricochet Chat Room was awash in “Crubio!” chants. I would love for Crubio to exist and — to some degree — they looked like they had come to an understanding, reserving their fire for Trump. I wish them well. I have always loved the idea of los hermanos cubanos. It may yet happen. But I think we will see a Trump/Kasich ticket.

For his part, Kasich’s pleas for moderation, hugs, and friendship sucked all the energy out of the room. Given the opportunity to back his own campaign’s attack against Trump, he declined. He says he will win the nomination, but I don’t think he is playing for president anymore. Maybe he thinks he can influence Trump, but — if reality cannot — what chance does the son of a mailman stand?

Much of the blame for this state of affairs deserves to be laid at the feet of weak Republican political leadership that thrives on inaction. However, the same goes for the conservative cultural leadership that feeds on on misplaced and manufactured rage. They have made a good combination and will do well for themselves afterward. When Trump takes over, the spineless politicians will suck up to him and the ego-driven media personalities will fall in line behind their alpha male. We will have a unified Republican party, that stands for nothing but winning. Which is the dream of all true politicians. I think we shall then see who the true conservatives are.

It is evening in America my friends, and we don’t know how long the night will be, or what the world will look like with the coming of a new dawn. Much will change, I presume.

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  1. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    I am seeing a constituency split. The Republican Party is not big enough for Trump and #NeverTrump.

    • #1
  2. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    As a one-time Rubio supporter, it’s hard for me to see how anyone didn’t see Cruz as the dominating presence in that debate.  Electable? I’m inclined to doubt it, but he knows how to articulate a substantive position, and looks mature enough to be “presidential.”  I wouldn’t mind going down fighting with him.  It pains me to say Marco doesn’t “fill the stage.” It doesn’t pain me to say Trump is more or less a cipher.

    • #2
  3. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    • #3
  4. Larry Koler Inactive
    Larry Koler
    @LarryKoler

    V: you are a treasure. Thanks for doing this. I didn’t watch the debate and I will read this tomorrow morning. Just wanted to give 1000 likes. Much appreciated.

    • #4
  5. Craig Inactive
    Craig
    @Craig

    I’d like to make a comment but Trump is interrupting me.

    • #5
  6. harrisventures Inactive
    harrisventures
    @harrisventures

    0109-HEB013014ENGKJV08000480-000

    https://versaday.com/Months/01/0109.aspx

    “There is a lot of ruin in a nation.”

    Adam Smith made the above quote in a letter to a young man who was worried that the defeat of the British Army in its latest overseas military adventure would ruin the nation. Smith did not agree. He thought the end of overseas wars would be good for England and Scotland.

    Also: “In the long run we are all dead.”  John Maynard Keynes

    The passing parade sometimes seems so pressing, but this too shall pass. The tide rolls in, the tide rolls out.

    At one time, the sun never set on the British Empire, perhaps the American Empire is coming to an end.

    So stock up on the ammo, get lot’s of DVD’s, and buy a generator.

    I hope I haven’t diminished your optimism Valuith…

    • #6
  7. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    Marco Rubio had a cold.

    The senators worked so effectively together that I almost did wonder if there is an understanding of some kind.

    Valiuth: Much of the blame for the state of affairs deserves to be laid at the feet of weak Republican leadership, but it isn’t just the political leadership that is at fault, but the cultural leadership too. That has let itself grow comfortable on manufactured rage and opposition. The political leadership thrives off of inaction and the cultural leadership thrives on misplaced and manufactured rage. They have made a good combination.

    Exactly. The country is not going to fall because the “GOPe” sold us out. The GOPe is not powerful enough to destroy a country.

    • #7
  8. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Leigh:Marco Rubio had a cold.

    I’m sorry to hear that, but, at bottom. it’s irrelevant.  IMO, one could view his performance as competent, but no more. At this point, that’s not good enough.

    • #8
  9. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    Hoyacon:

    Leigh:Marco Rubio had a cold.

    I’m sorry to hear that, but, at bottom. it’s irrelevant. IMO, one could view his performance as competent, but no more. At this point, that’s not good enough.

    It wasn’t obvious?

    Just an observation; obviously the world can turn on such things.

    I did think Cruz was trying to sound presidential while Rubio was trying to hurt Trump — not that Cruz wasn’t trying to hurt Trump, just that I think Rubio was absolutely singleminded on that goal.

    What they did tonight is exactly what they would have done if they had gotten in touch in the past 48 hours and reached an understanding.

    • #9
  10. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Leigh:

    Hoyacon:

    Leigh:Marco Rubio had a cold.

    I’m sorry to hear that, but, at bottom. it’s irrelevant. IMO, one could view his performance as competent, but no more. At this point, that’s not good enough.

    It wasn’t obvious?

    Just an observation; obviously the world can turn on such things.

    I did think Cruz was trying to sound presidential while Rubio was trying to hurt Trump — not that Cruz wasn’t trying to hurt Trump, just that I think Rubio was absolutely singleminded on that goal.

    What they did tonight is exactly what they would have done if they had gotten in touch in the past 48 hours and reached an understanding.

    I have absolutely no interest in bringing down Rubio, but, FWIW, I think we saw the beginning of the end of his candidacy tonight, sick or not.  Cruz was impressive, Rubio less so.  If that was their “roles,” Rubio was ill served by it.  The good news is that Trump appeared increasingly indefensible.

    • #10
  11. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    Hoyacon: I have absolutely no interest in bringing down Rubio, but, FWIW, I think we saw the beginning of the end of his candidacy tonight, sick or not. Cruz was impressive, Rubio less so. If that was their “roles,” Rubio was ill served by it. The good news is that Trump appeared increasingly indefensible.

    I didn’t think he actually did badly. Someone needs to scuffle with Trump and he’s doing it.

    If that takes his own candidacy down in the interest of bringing Trump down to the benefit of Ted Cruz, that would be a fully honorable way to go.

    As opposed to John Kasich, who is playing something the opposite.

    • #11
  12. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Quick takes and then I’m going to bed:

    1. Rubio’s cold/flu/exhaustion didn’t help him – as was said competent but not on his game.
    2. However, the Trump University topic does expose Trump as a huckster and fraud – and Megyn Kelly helped to bolster that argument with her research
    3. It was Cruz’s night and he was most effective in telling Trump to count to ten or to breathe – because Trump actually did stop talking – which made him look like the petulant child prone to tantrums that he is. Very bad optics for Trump.
    4. Wallace’s charts showing that Trump’s claim that attacking waste, fraud and abuse would not be enough to balance the budget also showed Trump to be full of hot air.
    5. Signature moment for me was when Trump channeled Mussolini (or name your tyrant) and said the military would obey his illegal orders to engage in war crimes. Unfortunately most Americans aren’t well versed in what war crimes are or the Geneva Convention, so many Trump supporters will actually be fine with Trump’s response…especially Ms. Coulter.
    6. Kasich actually made a couple of good points about his experience which may help him in his home state…but other than that he is very tiresome to listen to.
    7. As usual Trump looked unprepared and completely clueless on foreign policy but single-issue voters and die-hard Trump supporters won’t care. According to his college classmates Trump was always unprepared for class, never had done the reading and always tried to BS his way through college. That behavior certainly hasn’t changed.
    8. Okay – last point – Trump may have hurt himself by flip-flopping on live TV about H-1B visas and constantly saying how flexible he would be even on immigration and that he won’t ask the NY Times to release his off-the-record comments. For those who’ve bought into his ‘tough’ immigration stance this should be a YUGE red flag that you’re about to be betrayed and that 12 million illegals aren’t going anywhere. Just don’t come crying to the rest of us later on that you were conned. You had adequate warning. It’s not as though the man doesn’t have a reputation for stretching the truth or being deceptive.
    • #12
  13. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Leigh:

    Hoyacon: I have absolutely no interest in bringing down Rubio, but, FWIW, I think we saw the beginning of the end of his candidacy tonight, sick or not. Cruz was impressive, Rubio less so. If that was their “roles,” Rubio was ill served by it. The good news is that Trump appeared increasingly indefensible.

    I didn’t think he actually did badly. Someone needs to scuffle with Trump and he’s doing it.

    If that takes his own candidacy down in the interest of bringing Trump down to the benefit of Ted Cruz, that would be a fully honorable way to go.

    As opposed to John Kasich, who is playing something the opposite.

    I don’t think he did “badly” either, but it was not the top shelf performance he needed.  As I’ve said, if illness played a part, that’s unfortunate.  I do not believe that he “took one for the team,” but recognize he went after Trump.  I think we need to recognize that, as skilled as he is at times, he has off-nights (see New Hampshire).  At this level, that’s fatal when you have a hungry, prepared warrior like Cruz.

    • #13
  14. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I was trying picture each of them in four two-hour-long debates with Hillary.

    No one deserves that.

    But I think Trump would fare the best. They are a lot alike. Someone asks a question, and they go around the question rather than answer it. And if you ask them about something they said two minutes ago, they say, “I didn’t say that” or “I didn’t mean that” or “I’m allowed to change my mind. A good leader is flexible.”

    Heaven help us. :)

    • #14
  15. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Brian Watt:

    1. As usual Trump looked unprepared and completely clueless on foreign policy but single-issue voters and die-hard Trump supporters won’t care. According to his college classmates Trump was always unprepared for class, never had done the reading and always tried to BS his way through college. That behavior certainly hasn’t changed.

    I once described Obama as the kid in class who is just smart enough to know how to get away with not doing any of the readings. Trump doesn’t even have that. He gives the answers that will make the class laugh rather than the teacher give him an A.

    1. Okay – last point – Trump may have hurt himself by flip-flopping on live TV about H-1 visas and constantly saying how flexible he would be even on immigration and that he won’t ask the NY Times to release his off-the-record comments. For those who’ve bought into his ‘tough’ immigration stance this should be a YUGE red flag that you’re about to be betrayed and that 12 million illegals aren’t going anywhere. Just don’t come crying to the rest of us later on that you were conned. You had adequate warning. It’s not as though the man doesn’t have a reputation for stretching the truth or being deceptive.

    I doubt any of this is true. Trump voters are going for an attitude, not a policy.

    • #15
  16. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Leigh:Marco Rubio had a cold.

    The senators worked so effectively together that I almost did wonder if there is an understanding of some kind.

    Valiuth: Much of the blame for the state of affairs deserves to be laid at the feet of weak Republican leadership, but it isn’t just the political leadership that is at fault, but the cultural leadership too. That has let itself grow comfortable on manufactured rage and opposition. The political leadership thrives off of inaction and the cultural leadership thrives on misplaced and manufactured rage. They have made a good combination.

    Exactly. The country is not going to fall because the “GOPe” sold us out. The GOPe is not powerful enough to destroy a country.

    No but we can certainly destroy ourselves. We won’t even really do that. We have chosen to look inward and comfort ourselves with stories of unfairness and betrayal. One day we will wake up again to the reality of the world, and then be forced to pay a big cost. It is a good day to be a tyrant, and that means its a bad day for humanity.

    • #16
  17. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    harrisventures:

    I hope I haven’t diminished your optimism Valuith…

    Optimism is a matter of time horizons. For believers the notion of a just and merciful God should always give us optimism in the end. Yet, there are more immediate points of reference than eternity to consider too.

    True progress though never was in the hands of the government despite what so many people think. The government is the lagging indicator shifting to where society has already moved. I don’t worry that they will destroy us, I worry how much they will get in the way of moving forward.

    • #17
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    My thoughts on the debate are here, comment #21.  Bottom line: I think Trump pretty much nailed the nomination.  Only Kasich can possibly beat Trump if the other two get out now, but that’s not going to happen.

    I think Trump alleviated the fears that he will bring down the Republic.  He will “negotiate.”  Everything is negotiable, which doesn’t make me trust him but it makes me side with him over Hillary.  Better he picking the three or four SCOTUS openings than Hildebeast.  He should have a Republican administration which is better than a Democrat administration.

    • #18
  19. Jeff Petraska Member
    Jeff Petraska
    @JeffPetraska

    Brian Watt:

    1. Wallace’s charts showing that Trump’s claim that attacking waste, fraud and abuse would not be enough to balance the budget also showed Trump to be full of hot air.

    This was when I turned off the TV.  Apparently it is now standard procedure for debate moderators to prepare “Candy Crowley moments” in advance.  I’m no Trump supporter, but between the early schoolyard insult exchanges between Trump and Rubio, the audience participation, and finally the ambush question, I had seen enough.  This is not a debate, it’s political entertainment and social media fodder.

    • #19
  20. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    I am optimistic. I think Cruz came out looking amazing. I think the recent onslaught on Trump will show results in the closed primaries, and that once Trump loses the “inevitable” patina, he will start looking inflated and idiotic even to his own backers.

    And I think Cruz would rip Hillary apart in any debate. He has infinite ammunition. What Cruz did last night to Trump could be done even better against a shrill and shrieking Hillary.

    • #20
  21. Tommy De Seno Member
    Tommy De Seno
    @TommyDeSeno

    With all this talk about Donald Trump’s Johnson bar, the GOP debate is now just another TV show I can’t watch with my kids.

    • #21
  22. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Manny:My thoughts on the debate are here, comment #21. Bottom line: I think Trump pretty much nailed the nomination. Only Kasich can possibly beat Trump if the other two get out now, but that’s not going to happen.

    I think Trump alleviated the fears that he will bring down the Republic. He will “negotiate.” Everything is negotiable, which doesn’t make me trust him but it makes me side with him over Hillary. Better he picking the three or four SCOTUS openings than Hildebeast. He should have a Republican administration which is better than a Democrat administration.

    I have been saying that for a long time.  Trump is going to negotiate a compromise and have all the stakeholders at the table.

    • #22
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Guruforhire:

    Manny:My thoughts on the debate are here, comment #21. Bottom line: I think Trump pretty much nailed the nomination. Only Kasich can possibly beat Trump if the other two get out now, but that’s not going to happen.

    I think Trump alleviated the fears that he will bring down the Republic. He will “negotiate.” Everything is negotiable, which doesn’t make me trust him but it makes me side with him over Hillary. Better he picking the three or four SCOTUS openings than Hildebeast. He should have a Republican administration which is better than a Democrat administration.

    I have been saying that for a long time. Trump is going to negotiate a compromise and have all the stakeholders at the table.

    Well, I didn’t see it until last night.  The whole NY Times issue the others brought up actually helped Trump.

    The only place I see trouble in a Trump administration is his anti free trade positions.  I think those are the only positions that come out of his heart and believes in.

    • #23
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Tommy De Seno:With all this talk about Donald Trump’s Johnson bar, the GOP debate is now just another TV show I can’t watch with my kids.

    The whole first hour was a disgrace.  I felt embarrassed (and not just because of Trump’s Johnson…LOL) sitting watching.  The bickering really was third grade theatrics from Rubio, Cruz, and Trump.  I can’t believe the country and the Republican Party has come to this.

    Kasich should be commended for being above that crap.

    • #24
  25. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    I have spoken with many Trumpeters. And Valiuth is quite right … Its not a policy or set of policies, it is attitude. That and the myth of Trump-as-entrepreneur.

    They correctly perceive that they have beem lied to and played by the GOPe for years. And Democrats crossing over to support Trump feel the same way about Obama … They opted for Hope/Change and, for them, nothing changed. That rage has found a focus … Trump. Trump is a giant middle finger to business as usual. They WANT someone to go to DC and take a flamethrower to business as usual. And they THINK he’ll do it. His attitude certainly projects that he will.

    But he won’t.

    He admits that as a businessman he ‘got along with everybody’ in politics. That isn’t going to change. He actually says so in as many words. But Trumpeters still think he’s going to go to DC to kick ass. But Trump’s business interests still exist – even if they are run my his kids. He can’t go to DC and kick over the tables and smash the chairs and make a ton of enemies. Its bad for business. He’ll ‘get along with everybody to get things done’.

    The Trumpeters are going to get hosed AGAIN.

    • #25
  26. Fricosis Guy Listener
    Fricosis Guy
    @FricosisGuy

    It was refreshing that Cruz and Rubio showed some tactical discipline. I don’t know if there be a deal between los hermanos Cubanos, but neither has a chance if Trump continues to roll.

    Jeff Petraska:

    Brian Watt:

    1. Wallace’s charts showing that Trump’s claim that attacking waste, fraud and abuse would not be enough to balance the budget also showed Trump to be full of hot air.

    This was when I turned off the TV. Apparently it is now standard procedure for debate moderators to prepare “Candy Crowley moments” in advance.

    I hear what you’re saying, but that is what will happen to Trump in the general election. Weren’t you embarrassed that Romney wasn’t prepared for the Crowley moment? He should have been prepped that Obama would attempt to rebut the answer…his in-hand responses to Obama should have seen off Ms. Crowley too.

    • #26
  27. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    I think we’ve hit the depression stage.

    • #27
  28. James Madison Member
    James Madison
    @JamesMadison

    Cruz is an fundamental Christian evangelical. He only does on top. Not on bottom. Against the good book. In other words, he is a bit too pure and by the book. This factor limits him. So don’t expect him to be VP, unless he goes full Christie.

    The reason Cruz even gets a shot in on Donald Trump is Rubio hits with kill-shots and then Cruz says, “and another thing.” Cruz attacked as a wooden prosecutor (which he is) for six weeks and got no where. You almost got the signal at one point last night when Trump praised Rubio that he likes Rubio – certainly more than Cruz. Most people do. But you sensed he almost respects Rubio (when not calling him little Marco).

    And there is this issue: The fact that Ted is a 140 electoral votes – Trump maybe 170 electoral votes. This is not likely our year unless Hillary is tossed in the slammer.

    If it is a brokered convention – it’s a mess.

    One other point for the miles of video tape on Trump’s political incorrectness – or rudeness – or misogyny – or creepiness – or weirdness – or outrageousness – or greed – or braggadocio – or illegality, Trump advocated for America’s military to torture very hard, much, much harder, and to kill families. Kill the families. Terrific killing. The best killing. No rules. Shoot until happy. Ok, my interpretation is hyperbole – but not by much.

    Was this the worst moment in American poltical history? A presidential candidate advocating the American military be turned into a wanton killing machine. They will follow orders!!!

    Will the military follow orders? Maybe not? Probably not. Then what?

    • #28
  29. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    He isn’t running against free trade, he is running against asymmetric unfree trade.

    Hell, if there is no actual problem, all he has to do is bluster a bunch about the deals and sign off on a deal that does the same thing.  Which will build trust within the distrustful people.

    • #29
  30. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    As of today I think Rubio will lose Florida and Kasich will win Ohio due to the events of the last week. If this pans out Kasich will become the only electable candidate in the race. Cruz cannot win outside Dixie no matter how bad Hillary does and Trump is not Presidential timber. It’s time for us to swallow hard and accept that a RINO is the best we are going to get this year and start to generate some momentum for Kasich.

    • #30
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