Nazis. I Hate Nazis.

 

Strange times we live in when American conservatives — or some of them, anyway —  think it makes perfect sense these days for Europeans to get their Nazi groove on. I’ve been hearing this a bit too much on Ricochet of late, so I thought I’d make what in normal times would be an excessively easy call.

Nazis. I hate Nazis. And so should you.

The pro-Nazi argument, as I understand it, is that Europeans have been forced into their moist embrace by a political establishment that has unwisely ignored the larger public’s concern about the large number of migrants and refugees now streaming into Europe.

In discussing this, I’m going to single out comments by BDB not because he’s the only one to represent this argument, nor because I have it out for him, but because he’s tough and I know he can take it. I thus reproduce parts of an exchange we had on another thread:

BDB: You seem to view any opposition to Muslim immigration as such, and especially for cultural reasons, as akin to Nazis.  I’m sorry, but that’s a bad fit. This may make sense if you have a worldview that does not value Western Civilization, or which sees no threat to any culture through demographic change, but without at least one of those assumptions operating, mass Muslim immigration is fairly seen as a threat to Western Civilization. And not a single one of them has to intend harm in order to carry it out.

You don’t see danger — I do.  That doesn’t make me Hitler.  That makes me a conservative — literally — to conserve.  It’s disappointing to have to make that distinction here.

CB: No, you’ve misunderstood me, but I made this point on another thread, so perhaps you didn’t see it. I said that I don’t view opposition to Muslim (or other forms) of immigration as illegitimate or akin to the Nazis:

There are political parties in most of Europe that represent a more cautious or skeptical approach toward accepting refugees, but don’t wallow in the language, tropes, ideology, colors, and mud of traditional European fascism — or Putinism, for that matter. Germans who are uncomfortable with Merkel’s approach have the option, for example, of voting for the CSU, a perfectly respectable Christian conservative party. In France, they can vote for the Républicains — not that France under Hollande has taken in anything like an “inundation” of refugees; in fact, the total accepted in France so far is 14,800, with plans to take in another 24,000. It’s a myth that there are no mainstream parties to which voters may attach themselves if they’re uneasy about immigration.

What I view as akin to the Nazis are the parties and movements that are, in fact, explicitly Nazis (in that they say, “We are Nazis”) or very much akin to Nazis, in that they skirt laws or taboos against the formation of explicit Nazi movements by appealing to Nazi language, tropes, and ideology — e.g., Golden Dawn in Greece:

149327_402442516446610_100000425962344_1289883_576872380_n

(“The charm of the swastika, the splendor of red and black flag is alive today … our National Socialist task scream full of passion, faith in the future and our visions: HAIL HITLER!”) — Golden Dawn Issue 13.

(“Against the Jewish Life Perception whereby the Ioudaiochristinismos entered the history … Within the National Socialist renaissance dominance holds true religion of Europe paganism as an authentic expression of the religiosity of the Aryan man.”) –Golden Dawn Issue 59, p. 13-14

So I don’t think I’m straying into the territory of paranoia to suggest that Golden Dawn are akin to Nazis.

Some time ago, there were a spate of books written by European leftists like Nick Cohen — you may remember him; he wrote “What’s Left,” as well as by that great windbag BHL. They noted and deplored the European left’s willingness to ignore or justify Islamism in the name of multiculturalism. I see a similar tendency now on the right to ignore or justify the recrudescence of European fascism in the name of fighting Islamism. It’s a grave mistake.

BDB: And a reaction to the first.  Given a dominant political position that imports a culture-wrecking crew, do you really see other alternatives?  People who do not wish to be shoved off are being forced to lose or get offensive. Nobody chooses to lose.

Well, where do I start. While I don’t see “opposition to Muslim immigration as such, and especially for cultural reasons, as akin to Nazis,” I do see those who suggest that “there’s no alternative to the Nazis” as, very literally, akin to Nazis. That’s inarguable, no? If you’re offended at being tarred with the Nazi brush, I suggest it would be unwise to argue that Nazis are a natural reaction to anything, no less the only alternative in a sea of alternatives.

Let me quickly establish two important points. First, that the parties and movements we’re discussing are indeed Nazi parties. They are not misunderstood Jeffersonian Democrats with a curious but incidental taste for cuffbands, chevrons, belt buckles, commemorative badges, regimental standards, trumpet banners, field caps, service medals, shoulder flashes, permits, passes, boots, leather, chains, Iron Crosses, swastikas, and the Horst Wessel song. Their penchant for nattering on about Jewish Conspiracies and Blut und Boden is not a meaningless historic coincidence.

Here again is Golden Dawn:

Still not convinced?

No? Perhaps this will persuade you: When Nazi slogans were painted on Nikaia cemetery in Piraeus, Greece’s largest Jewish burial ground, they left behind their calling card: Hrisi Avgi — Golden Dawn. In May 2012, they ran under the slogan, “So we can rid this land of filth.” Party Leader Nikolaos Michaloliakos placed an adorable marble eagle on his desk. Here’s Golden Dawn MP Eleni Zaroulia during her inauguration, wearing the Iron Cross. Oh, and what have we here? Panagiotis Iliopoulos, another Golden Dawn MP, displaying his tattooSeig Heil!  Then there’s Artemis Matthaiopoulos, another Golden Dawn MP and the frontman of the tastefully-named band “Pogrom,” which churns out hits such as “Auschwitz” with lyrics such as “[redacted] Anne Frank” and “Juden raus.

Beginning to believe me yet? Well, let’s continue. Spokesman Ilias Kasidiaris quoted The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in a speech to parliament on 23 October 2012. Golden Dawn’s leader, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, denied the existence of gas chambers and ovens at Nazi extermination camps:

“There were no ovens — it’s a lie. I believe it’s a lie. There were no gas chambers either,” Michaloliakos said in an interview with Greece’s private Mega television, broadcast on Sunday.

Then Golden Dawn MP Ilias Kasidiaris said it outright, in the Greek Parliament: He’s a Holocaust denier.

It’s not just the rhetoric, either: It’s the action:

Late on Thursday, about 50, wielding blunt objects, violently confronted Communist party members in the Greek capital while they were passing out flyers … Nine leftists were hospitalized after sustaining severe wounds.

“The way in which they acted and the weapons employed … are evidence of the murderous nature of the attack. Among the Golden Dawners, some of whom had covered their faces or wore helmets or [party] shirts, were their leaders, well-known fascists and thugs.”

In April 2014, Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros described Hitler as a “great personality, like Stalin,” and denounced homosexuality as a “sickness.” He described immigrant Muslims to Greece as, “Jihadists; fanatic Muslims” and claimed that he supported the concept of a one-race nation, stating, “if you are talking about nation, it is one race.”

Look: If looks like a Nazi, swims like a Nazi, and quacks like a Nazi, it’s not a duck.

They’re now the third-largest party in the Greek Parliament, by the way.

Now, suppose you’re a normal Greek, not a Nazi, and you’d like to vote for a party that takes a tough line on immigration. Well, you could vote for ANEL, the Independent Greeks — they’re not particularly attractive; a bit of that old anti-Jew stench off hangs off of them, too — but at least they’re not outright Nazis. They have a strong anti-immigration agenda; they want a 2.5% quota for non-Greeks residing in the country, the mass expulsion of illegal immigrants, and a hierarchy of “preferred” immigration by country of origin, heavily biased towards western and Latin American countries. They’re a little crazy and little conspiracy-prone, but at least they’re not Nazis. Or you could vote for the perfectly sane, center-right New Democracy Party, which proposed during its recent time in office to introduce a strict immigration policy. They recently strengthened this part of their platform. Or perhaps you could vote for the Popular Popular Orthodox Rally, which describes itself as “Hellenocentric,” opposes illegal immigration, and suggests deporting all undocumented immigrants. “I don’t want them to become a majority,” party leader Giorgis Karatzaferis says. 

But frankly, if you’re Greek, it doesn’t seem that immigration is anything like the biggest of your concerns, no matter what you think Greeks should think. According to opinion polls — for what they’re worth — immigration barely even ranks in their top concerns. If you’re Greek, your biggest concerns (at least, as of last year) were “International Financial Stability,” (95 percent), followed by “Global Climate Change” (87 percent), followed by Iran’s nuclear program (64 percent). I certainly understand why the first and the third issues are sources of concern. As for the second, I am beginning to doubt that the Greeks are a fully rational people, but then again, Americans too seem much preoccupied by this fear.

So don’t tell me that becoming a Nazi is a perfectly understandable reaction to an ambient political class that won’t take seriously your concerns about the assault on European culture — especially because most Greeks, from what I can tell, don’t share your concerns. They seem to want to do the decent thing toward these boat people, and I find it impossible to blame them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOVx_reOlXQ

This post is too long as it is, but I’ll continue tomorrow by looking at other countries, other parties, and other plans for handling the refugee influx beyond The Nazi Option. I will, I hope, convince you that there are many alternatives to Nazis. Stay Tuned.

Published in Foreign Policy, General
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  1. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Percival:I’m with captainpower. Just about anybody who is a smidgeon more conservative than Joe Lieberman is described by the press as “far right-wing.” I’ve seen it applied to UKIP. I’ve seen it applied to Golden Dawn.UKIP aren’t Nazis, no matter what the BBC says. Golden Dawn are Nazis no matter what anybody says.

    You can’t tell who the players are without a scorecard. Unfortunately, the scorecard publishers suffer from a lack of nuance.

    Nuance, how generous you are. The scorecard publishers suffer from both a lack of brains and perspective. Some may have had a solectomy. Only speculating on that.

    Nigel is the only one giving Europe hope to get itself out of the mess. Golden Dawn is what happens when it’s too late.

    Regards,

    Jim

    Re

    • #61
  2. Old Bathos Moderator
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Ed G.:

    Old Bathos:The elitist ruling class in Europe does not permit it citizenry to notice that massive Muslim immigration carries a very large downside.People will move to where voicing that concern is permissible which is now only on the extreme right.In 1930s Germany the center collapsed and the average German was forced to choose between Communists and Nazis.[…..]

    More like Liberalism collapsed and so people were forced to choose Communists or Nazis – both of the left. After all, take away the racialism/nationalism and what differentiates nazism from totalitarian communism?

    Leaving aside the characterization of left, middle and right in 1930s Germany, the reality of economic and social collapse was quite real.  The fictitious narrative that the Jews were responsible required deep pre-existing prejudice.

    The coming European collapse under the weight of hordes of hostile, unassimilatable invaders will have an empirically obvious target of resentment. You won’t need a Goebbels or Riefenstahl to sell the hate.

    • #62
  3. James Of England Moderator
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Tommy De Seno:One man’s patriot is another man’s nationalist…

    I don’t think that Claire would deny that some Nazis are patriotic, and it’s not really the nationalism that tends to be the problem with national socialism.

    It’s the introduction of violence. It’s the racism. It’s the stoking of conspiracy theories and building of hatred. It’s the revolutionary socialism.

    As Sabr says, “they fight”. As Sabr knows, Kentucky is partly the charming state that it is because the Kentucky Constitution has uniquely strong rules against fighting. There’s a lot of appeal to throwing off the bounds of decency, because who wants to live by another man’s rules? For the country as a whole, though, a general agreement to be decent tends to be a positive thing.

    • #63
  4. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    editing error

    • #64
  5. Vice-Potentate Inactive
    Vice-Potentate
    @VicePotentate

    If it is granted that there are viable political alternatives to Fascism, what makes the “Nazi” option popular? I would suggest that for a certain percentage of people, young people in particular, triumphalist rhetoric mixed with a will to act, especially violently, makes for an attractive option. This is not apologizing for or supporting Nazism simply an observation of human nature as it is attracted to action and ideology . So despite the existence of non-Nazi parties that are opposed to immigration the failure of the ruling consensus to deal with immigration policy still yields gains for Nazi parties. It’s inevitable and depressing, but observing this phenomenon is in no way supportive of Nazism.

    • #65
  6. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    http://youtu.be/-ukFAvYP3UU

    • #66
  7. Sabrdance Member
    Sabrdance
    @Sabrdance

    James Of England:

    Tommy De Seno:One man’s patriot is another man’s nationalist…

    As Sabr says, “they fight”. As Sabr knows, Kentucky is partly the charming state that it is because the Kentucky Constitution has uniquely strong rules against fighting.

    I love this state, but that’s the first time I’ve heard that particular clause referred to as “charming” instead of “hilarious.”

    But I think it’s worth remembering the reason it exists: our people did settle political disputes with duels, and that was not a good way to represent the people (the victory went to the fast, lucky, or good shots, not to the just, righteous, or correct).  At the present time, the fights are not being won by the just, righteous, or correct, but by the mendacious, tendentious, and demagogic.

    In those circumstances, the even chance of the duel has appeal.

    • #67
  8. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    • #68
  9. Majestyk Contributor
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Ideas shouldn’t be held responsible for the people who believe them.

    • #69
  10. captainpower Inactive
    captainpower
    @captainpower

    Majestyk:Ideas shouldn’t be held responsible for the people who believe them.

    Agreed, however, if Hillary Clinton agreed with me on policy I’d have to carefully reconsider my position just to make sure there wasn’t something insidious I had missed, or some nuance in the position where we diverged irreconcilably.

    • #70
  11. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Right turn, Clyde.

    • #71
  12. Severely Ltd. Inactive
    Severely Ltd.
    @SeverelyLtd

    James Of England: As Sabr knows, Kentucky is partly the charming state that it is because the Kentucky Constitution has uniquely strong rules against fighting.

    Do you know the reason for this? Is this a reaction to a Hatfield & McCoys mentality once prevalent there?

    Added: Just saw sabrdance’s explanation.

    • #72
  13. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    There’s a lot here and I want to read through properly -first thoughts – “History repeating itself” and “if we don’t learn from mistakes, we’re doomed to repeat” – cliches maybe -but does the current generation know history – the suffering – the destruction of freedom and life itself? That happened under Nazi rule. The world is ripe for the same chaos of 70 years ago. Claire is a watchman on the wall – there are many – it’s hard to be a bell-ringer – you yell and no one hears. The chapter on Germany from your book – coming to pass – Russia rising – coming to pass – the Middle East on fire – soon Western Europe.  Say what you will about George W Bush, but he called evil by its name – you have to name it to fight it – like the exorcists who ask a demon “what is your name and purpose?” before they can wage war, you have to name it – whether its a country, an ideology – it makes no difference. Nazism was evil. Those of us that recognize it must identify it and call it out – this is what Claire is doing. Amen to her.

    • #73
  14. EThompson Inactive
    EThompson
    @EThompson

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    • #74
  15. EThompson Inactive
    EThompson
    @EThompson

    It’s important to note that anti-Semitic behavior also originated as anti-capitalism. Hitler grew up in a lower middle class society with a sociopathic chip on his shoulder toward all who fared better than he and his family and the remnants of his country after WWI. Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat, blaming them for Germany’s economic problems.

    After Israel was founded and developed into a thriving, free market democracy, significant anti-Semitism reared its head yet again; I would definitively link this to a growing strain of anti-Westernism.

    This is why Israel’s fight is ours as well.

    • #75
  16. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Briefly, thank you Claire for giving this a wider forum.  I don’t feel slandered, but that’s because we have been in this conversation for some time.  So I am grateful for everybody who stuck up for me.  “I have many flaws, but ingratitude is not one of them.”

    I’ll quibble.

    I’m not hitting the Nazi thing because this arose from a conversation about the human wave currently breaking over Europe.  I hold that this is a bad thing in itself.  You responded, unless I have misread you, that the worse problem is the rise of extremist parties in consequence.  I said that we are already in the grip of extremist parties, but internationalist multi-culti socialist extremists, and that the reaction was predictable, and that if the effect of this is the rise of extremist parties, then why on Earth would we not discontinue the cause?  I say it’s just one more adverse consequence of these governments (and international organizations) pushing waves of migrants and “refugees” upon increasingly beleaguered peoples.

    Non-Europeans are not the only ones with a culture that they cherish and will defend.  You do not see the policy of importing waves of non-assimilating foreigners as harmful in itself, and therefore see the harmful but opposite responses as an endemic bad, independent of its cause.  We were talking Muslims, not Nazis.

    You cite polls and treaties.  I’m saying that people are not going to put up with this.

    • #76
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    EThompson: It’s important to note that anti-Semitic behavior also originated as anti-capitalism.

    Really?  I’d need a lot more evidence in order to be convinced.  Also, there was anti-Semitic behavior long before there was Hitler.

    • #77
  18. Robert Lux Inactive
    Robert Lux
    @RobertLux

    Ball Diamond Ball:I said that we are already in the grip of extremist parties, but internationalist multi-culti socialist extremists,

    As Titus intimated, the ruling class (which he says isn’t a ruling elite; I’d dispute him over that…) is doing this with complicity of the voting public. The body politic is already apolitical; the ruling class is finishing the job.

    Sweden non plus ultra:  best I can tell, they really do want this deluge. Anything to deliver themselves from the sin of their particularity as Swedes.  Same for Germans.  They’ll be happier — dare I say to you libertarian “spontaneous order” people, it aligns with their self-interest — to live as Brazil or Mexico.

    A very pervasive thought in Sweden and Germany — one rarely noted in Anglo media — is that they are living on the expenses of others, i.e., the third world.  Even Henryk Broder, otherwise staunch opponent of this wave of mass immigration, says:

    The people know that they owe their well-being to a very extended looting of the third world.

    [Interviewer:] But you see immigration into Europe as regeneration. Is that the opportunity?

    Yes. Europe will be different, and that is the only chance it actually has: to revitalise itself with the people it actually doesn’t want to have. The question is only whether it will give up its political system. I would be happy to give up white Europe, but I wouldn’t want to give up democratic Europe.

    • #78
  19. Valiuth Inactive
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    In my exploration for new podcasts to listen to while doing mindless chores or grinding out loot in video games I stumbled upon a particularly provocative podcast called Red Ice (you can find it on Stitcher). It is an English language podcast out of Norway or Sweden. I came across it looking of podcasts on the Greek debt crisis. The host had on the American spokesman for Golden Dawn giving his take on the whole Greek situation. In listening to further Red Ice podcasts it became clear to me that the host and basically all his guests where in the business of putting forth the old race ideologies of which Nazism is the most virulent and hateful historical example. It is a fascinating ideology, equal parts science, conspiracy theory, and racism. If one is interested in hearing what the actual Nazis of Europe and America are thinking Red Ice is a good place to start.

    For those wondering how to know when one is facing a Nazi ideology.   I think I can sum it up in this manner. The core of the modern and classical Nazi ideology is that genetics drive culture. In their view of the world the European culture is inexorably linked to what is defined as the European race. Immigrants threaten the culture not just through importation of culture but also their genetic traits. Assimilation is impossible, and unwelcome as any form of integration will mean the destruction of the unique European genetics.

    Continued

    • #79
  20. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: and claimed that he supported the concept of a one-race nation, stating, “if you are talking about nation, it is one race.”

    I haven’t heard anyone on Ricochet say this, exactly, but I’ve heard some talk that’s too close to it for comfort.  I don’t think it’s targeted against Jews, though.

    • #80
  21. Tommy De Seno Contributor
    Tommy De Seno
    @TommyDeSeno

    EThompson:

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    I’ll admit to a general ignorance on this, but wasn’t the deaths under Mao due to a terribly inept agriculture policy in the Great Leap Forward?

    If that’s the case, is it really fair to lump him in with an intentional killer like Hitler?

    • #81
  22. Valiuth Inactive
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Resumed

    Talk of integration, assimilation, intermarriage etc. are all forms of a stealthy genocide being foisted on Europeans by Jews. Jews who control science, the media, banks, America, and academia. Jews themselves represent a non-European races which has cleverly infiltrated the European gene pool and cultural institutions and are using them to serve their own genetic/cultural prerogatives.

    Thus the best way to know if a particular party or personality is a Nazi is to probe them about their feeling towards Jews and their conceptions of culture and genetics. It would seem to me that anyone who views their culture as being a byproduct of their genetic heritage is if not a Nazi at least half way to being one, as that is the basis of the entire ideology, that and antisemitism.

    • #82
  23. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    EThompson:

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    We still don’t have one. Try again when the Marxists lose power.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #83
  24. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Valiuth: Thus the best way to know if a particular party or personality is a Nazi is to probe them about their feeling towards Jews and their conceptions of culture and genetics. It would seem to me that anyone who views their culture as being a by product of their genetic heritage is if not a Nazi at least half way to being one, as that is the basis of the entire ideology, that and antisemitism.

    I’ve heard people talk that way.  I’m not sure it has been on Ricochet, though.

    What I have heard on Ricochet (and elsewhere) is people who think genetic heritage is of supreme importance to identity. When you hear someone talking about our President as being “half black,” you’re hearing a racist.  Not necessarily a contemptible, irredeemable racist, but you’re hearing somebody who thinks in racial terms.

    I got more sensitized to this way of thinking when studying the history of the interactions of Native Americans with European-Americans.  To Indians, your genetic background isn’t what made you Indian.  Your upbringing and acculturation is what made you one of them (although they would have put it in less utilitarian and more spiritual language). Some Euro-Americans saw it that way, too, but they (and especially the English) tended to see identity more in racial/genetic terms, and it got worse as time went on.

    • #84
  25. Robert Lux Inactive
    Robert Lux
    @RobertLux

    Tommy De Seno:

    EThompson:

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    I’ll admit to a general ignorance on this, but wasn’t the deaths under Mao due to a terribly inept agriculture policy in the Great Leap Forward?

    If that’s the case, is it really fair to lump him in with an intentional killer like Hitler?

    It wasn’t inept so much as it was intrinsic to the logic of mass agricultural collectivization itself. Once you completely remove the profit motive, the lengths one has to go to get people to do things is monstrous. Completely remove the profit motive and the Great Leap was essentially pushing mounds of human flesh through a meat-grinder.  The Dutch researcher Frank Dikötter had a window-of-opportunity access, around the time of the Beijing Olympics, to the Chinese archives. He estimated some 45 million dead.

    Within a four year period.

    • #85
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Robert Lux: It wasn’t inept so much as it was intrinsic to the logic of mass agricultural collectivization itself. Once you completely remove the profit motive, the lengths one has to go to get people to do things is monstrous. Completely remove the profit motive and the Great Leap was essentially pushing mounds of human flesh through a meat-grinder. The Dutch researcher Frank Dikötter had a window-of-opportunity access, around the time of the Beijing Olympics, to the Chinese archives. He estimated some 45 million dead. Within a four year period.

    It’s the logical end result of the drive for social justice.

    • #86
  27. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    Robert Lux:

    Tommy De Seno:

    EThompson:

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    I’ll admit to a general ignorance on this, but wasn’t the deaths under Mao due to a terribly inept agriculture policy in the Great Leap Forward?

    If that’s the case, is it really fair to lump him in with an intentional killer like Hitler?

    It wasn’t inept so much as it was intrinsic to the logic of mass agricultural collectivization itself. Once you completely remove the profit motive, the lengths one has to go to get people to do things is monstrous. Completely remove the profit motive and the Great Leap was essentially pushing mounds of human flesh through a meat-grinder. The Dutch researcher Frank Dikötter had a window-of-opportunity access, around the time of the Beijing Olympics, to the Chinese archives. He estimated some 45 million dead.

    Within a four year period.

    And even if one accepts that the Great Leap Forward was mere incompetence, it doesn’t excuse the Reign of Terror Cultural Revolution.

    • #87
  28. Valiuth Inactive
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    The Reticulator: To Indians, your genetic background isn’t what made you Indian. Your upbringing and acculturation is what made you one of them (although they would have put it in less utilitarian and more spiritual language). Some Euro-Americans saw it that way, too, but they (and especially the English) tended to see identity more in racial/genetic terms, and it got worse as time went on.

    Indeed what drove the racial ideologies of Europe at the turn of the 20th century was their understanding and application of genetics and Darwin’s insights into species and evolution. From my listening to these podcast I came across a particularly famous (at least in his limited circle) Nazi blogger who has complied a series of self produced podcasts detailing his view of race.  I listen to some of these out of morbid curiosity. His conception are all based in the early speculations about human genetics and its implications. Basically he never sited a scientist that was not born in the 1800s though many in fact came to prominence only in the early 20th century.

    Now at the time these speculations into race and genetics I would argue were legitimate, though clearly tinged with vast amounts of racism. Today though the entire body of human genetics does not offer much support for these views. This though is disregarded by modern Nazis as a form of Jewish manipulation of science, thus he often refers to “Jewish Science”.

    • #88
  29. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Tommy De Seno:

    EThompson:

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    Don’t forget about Mao Tse-tung who tops the genocidal list at 40-70 million.

    It was tough to get an exact number …

    I’ll admit to a general ignorance on this, but wasn’t the deaths under Mao due to a terribly inept agriculture policy in the Great Leap Forward?

    If that’s the case, is it really fair to lump him in with an intentional killer like Hitler?

    My new word for the week is “democide”–article on Mao Zedong from Wikipedia:

    In contrast, critics consider him a dictator who severely damaged traditional Chinese culture, as well as a perpetrator of systematic human rights abuses who was responsible for an estimated 40 to 70 million deaths through starvation, forced labor, and executions, ranking his tenure as the top incidence of democide in human history.

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  30. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Democide:

    Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientistR. J. Rummel (1932 to 2014) as “the murder of any person or people by their government, including genocide, politicide and mass murder.” Rummel created the term as an extended concept to include forms of government murder that are not covered by the term genocide, and it has become accepted among other scholars. According to Rummel, democide surpassed war as the leading cause of non-natural death in the 20th century. . . .

    Some examples of democide cited by Rummel include the Great Purges carried out by Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union, the deaths from the colonial policy in the Congo Free State, andMao Zedong‘s Great Leap Forward, which resulted in a famine killing millions of people. According to Rummel, these were not cases of genocide because those who were killed were not selected on the basis of their race, but were killed in large numbers as a result of government policies.

    [continued]

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