Nazis. I Hate Nazis.

 

Strange times we live in when American conservatives — or some of them, anyway —  think it makes perfect sense these days for Europeans to get their Nazi groove on. I’ve been hearing this a bit too much on Ricochet of late, so I thought I’d make what in normal times would be an excessively easy call.

Nazis. I hate Nazis. And so should you.

The pro-Nazi argument, as I understand it, is that Europeans have been forced into their moist embrace by a political establishment that has unwisely ignored the larger public’s concern about the large number of migrants and refugees now streaming into Europe.

In discussing this, I’m going to single out comments by BDB not because he’s the only one to represent this argument, nor because I have it out for him, but because he’s tough and I know he can take it. I thus reproduce parts of an exchange we had on another thread:

BDB: You seem to view any opposition to Muslim immigration as such, and especially for cultural reasons, as akin to Nazis.  I’m sorry, but that’s a bad fit. This may make sense if you have a worldview that does not value Western Civilization, or which sees no threat to any culture through demographic change, but without at least one of those assumptions operating, mass Muslim immigration is fairly seen as a threat to Western Civilization. And not a single one of them has to intend harm in order to carry it out.

You don’t see danger — I do.  That doesn’t make me Hitler.  That makes me a conservative — literally — to conserve.  It’s disappointing to have to make that distinction here.

CB: No, you’ve misunderstood me, but I made this point on another thread, so perhaps you didn’t see it. I said that I don’t view opposition to Muslim (or other forms) of immigration as illegitimate or akin to the Nazis:

There are political parties in most of Europe that represent a more cautious or skeptical approach toward accepting refugees, but don’t wallow in the language, tropes, ideology, colors, and mud of traditional European fascism — or Putinism, for that matter. Germans who are uncomfortable with Merkel’s approach have the option, for example, of voting for the CSU, a perfectly respectable Christian conservative party. In France, they can vote for the Républicains — not that France under Hollande has taken in anything like an “inundation” of refugees; in fact, the total accepted in France so far is 14,800, with plans to take in another 24,000. It’s a myth that there are no mainstream parties to which voters may attach themselves if they’re uneasy about immigration.

What I view as akin to the Nazis are the parties and movements that are, in fact, explicitly Nazis (in that they say, “We are Nazis”) or very much akin to Nazis, in that they skirt laws or taboos against the formation of explicit Nazi movements by appealing to Nazi language, tropes, and ideology — e.g., Golden Dawn in Greece:

149327_402442516446610_100000425962344_1289883_576872380_n

(“The charm of the swastika, the splendor of red and black flag is alive today … our National Socialist task scream full of passion, faith in the future and our visions: HAIL HITLER!”) — Golden Dawn Issue 13.

(“Against the Jewish Life Perception whereby the Ioudaiochristinismos entered the history … Within the National Socialist renaissance dominance holds true religion of Europe paganism as an authentic expression of the religiosity of the Aryan man.”) –Golden Dawn Issue 59, p. 13-14

So I don’t think I’m straying into the territory of paranoia to suggest that Golden Dawn are akin to Nazis.

Some time ago, there were a spate of books written by European leftists like Nick Cohen — you may remember him; he wrote “What’s Left,” as well as by that great windbag BHL. They noted and deplored the European left’s willingness to ignore or justify Islamism in the name of multiculturalism. I see a similar tendency now on the right to ignore or justify the recrudescence of European fascism in the name of fighting Islamism. It’s a grave mistake.

BDB: And a reaction to the first.  Given a dominant political position that imports a culture-wrecking crew, do you really see other alternatives?  People who do not wish to be shoved off are being forced to lose or get offensive. Nobody chooses to lose.

Well, where do I start. While I don’t see “opposition to Muslim immigration as such, and especially for cultural reasons, as akin to Nazis,” I do see those who suggest that “there’s no alternative to the Nazis” as, very literally, akin to Nazis. That’s inarguable, no? If you’re offended at being tarred with the Nazi brush, I suggest it would be unwise to argue that Nazis are a natural reaction to anything, no less the only alternative in a sea of alternatives.

Let me quickly establish two important points. First, that the parties and movements we’re discussing are indeed Nazi parties. They are not misunderstood Jeffersonian Democrats with a curious but incidental taste for cuffbands, chevrons, belt buckles, commemorative badges, regimental standards, trumpet banners, field caps, service medals, shoulder flashes, permits, passes, boots, leather, chains, Iron Crosses, swastikas, and the Horst Wessel song. Their penchant for nattering on about Jewish Conspiracies and Blut und Boden is not a meaningless historic coincidence.

Here again is Golden Dawn:

Still not convinced?

No? Perhaps this will persuade you: When Nazi slogans were painted on Nikaia cemetery in Piraeus, Greece’s largest Jewish burial ground, they left behind their calling card: Hrisi Avgi — Golden Dawn. In May 2012, they ran under the slogan, “So we can rid this land of filth.” Party Leader Nikolaos Michaloliakos placed an adorable marble eagle on his desk. Here’s Golden Dawn MP Eleni Zaroulia during her inauguration, wearing the Iron Cross. Oh, and what have we here? Panagiotis Iliopoulos, another Golden Dawn MP, displaying his tattooSeig Heil!  Then there’s Artemis Matthaiopoulos, another Golden Dawn MP and the frontman of the tastefully-named band “Pogrom,” which churns out hits such as “Auschwitz” with lyrics such as “[redacted] Anne Frank” and “Juden raus.

Beginning to believe me yet? Well, let’s continue. Spokesman Ilias Kasidiaris quoted The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in a speech to parliament on 23 October 2012. Golden Dawn’s leader, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, denied the existence of gas chambers and ovens at Nazi extermination camps:

“There were no ovens — it’s a lie. I believe it’s a lie. There were no gas chambers either,” Michaloliakos said in an interview with Greece’s private Mega television, broadcast on Sunday.

Then Golden Dawn MP Ilias Kasidiaris said it outright, in the Greek Parliament: He’s a Holocaust denier.

It’s not just the rhetoric, either: It’s the action:

Late on Thursday, about 50, wielding blunt objects, violently confronted Communist party members in the Greek capital while they were passing out flyers … Nine leftists were hospitalized after sustaining severe wounds.

“The way in which they acted and the weapons employed … are evidence of the murderous nature of the attack. Among the Golden Dawners, some of whom had covered their faces or wore helmets or [party] shirts, were their leaders, well-known fascists and thugs.”

In April 2014, Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros described Hitler as a “great personality, like Stalin,” and denounced homosexuality as a “sickness.” He described immigrant Muslims to Greece as, “Jihadists; fanatic Muslims” and claimed that he supported the concept of a one-race nation, stating, “if you are talking about nation, it is one race.”

Look: If looks like a Nazi, swims like a Nazi, and quacks like a Nazi, it’s not a duck.

They’re now the third-largest party in the Greek Parliament, by the way.

Now, suppose you’re a normal Greek, not a Nazi, and you’d like to vote for a party that takes a tough line on immigration. Well, you could vote for ANEL, the Independent Greeks — they’re not particularly attractive; a bit of that old anti-Jew stench off hangs off of them, too — but at least they’re not outright Nazis. They have a strong anti-immigration agenda; they want a 2.5% quota for non-Greeks residing in the country, the mass expulsion of illegal immigrants, and a hierarchy of “preferred” immigration by country of origin, heavily biased towards western and Latin American countries. They’re a little crazy and little conspiracy-prone, but at least they’re not Nazis. Or you could vote for the perfectly sane, center-right New Democracy Party, which proposed during its recent time in office to introduce a strict immigration policy. They recently strengthened this part of their platform. Or perhaps you could vote for the Popular Popular Orthodox Rally, which describes itself as “Hellenocentric,” opposes illegal immigration, and suggests deporting all undocumented immigrants. “I don’t want them to become a majority,” party leader Giorgis Karatzaferis says. 

But frankly, if you’re Greek, it doesn’t seem that immigration is anything like the biggest of your concerns, no matter what you think Greeks should think. According to opinion polls — for what they’re worth — immigration barely even ranks in their top concerns. If you’re Greek, your biggest concerns (at least, as of last year) were “International Financial Stability,” (95 percent), followed by “Global Climate Change” (87 percent), followed by Iran’s nuclear program (64 percent). I certainly understand why the first and the third issues are sources of concern. As for the second, I am beginning to doubt that the Greeks are a fully rational people, but then again, Americans too seem much preoccupied by this fear.

So don’t tell me that becoming a Nazi is a perfectly understandable reaction to an ambient political class that won’t take seriously your concerns about the assault on European culture — especially because most Greeks, from what I can tell, don’t share your concerns. They seem to want to do the decent thing toward these boat people, and I find it impossible to blame them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOVx_reOlXQ

This post is too long as it is, but I’ll continue tomorrow by looking at other countries, other parties, and other plans for handling the refugee influx beyond The Nazi Option. I will, I hope, convince you that there are many alternatives to Nazis. Stay Tuned.

Published in Foreign Policy, General
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  1. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Let us hope that there continue to be alternatives to the Nazis. I’m Jewish. I knew what a pogrom was when I was pretty young. And I’ve often wondered which way I would have gone had I been young Ukranian survivor of the Holodomor at the beginning of WWII. Could I have stomached joining the Red Army? Would I have followed Bandera? What if I was, as was not uncommon in Ukraine, a bit of an antisemite? Would that have swayed my decision?

    • #31
  2. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    captainpower:Is there a list of “is a Nazi” and “not a Nazi” the undiscerning American?

    So far, “Golden Dawn” party in Greece seems to be on the Nazi list.

    Is Nigel Farage a Nazi? What about Geert Wilders? Pim Fortuyn? Theo van Gogh?

    I’ve heard these names and heard a few things they’ve said, but haven’t spent any real time researching them other than seeing that they have “links” to toxic groups. But even then, I’m never certain whether that’s just opposition slander making more out of it than is really there, or an accurate reflection of their sympathies.

    No, the others are not Nazis. They’re angry people with nationalist prejudices that are really old liberal prejudices–not liking foreigners is about the last refuge of inegalitarianism in democracy. The left therefore hates it & the right cannot but embrace it…

    There is a Nazi-like party in Austria. & the Front National in France is Nazi-like, but they do not seem to organize for rabid protests now. Or I’m not paying enough attention–it’s possible, too.

    There are very few parties as bad as Golden Dawn–I do not have an example right now.

    Hungary is led by a party that is also somewhat frightful.

    • #32
  3. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Fake John Galt:Do you hate all Nazi or just Illinois Nazis?

    https://youtu.be/-ukFAvYP3UU

    Is that a trick question?

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #33
  4. Old Bathos Moderator
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    The elitist ruling class in Europe does not permit it citizenry to notice that massive Muslim immigration carries a very large downside. People will move to where voicing that concern is permissible which is now only on the extreme right. In 1930s Germany the center collapsed and the average German was forced to choose between Communists and Nazis. Hitler was supposed to kick ass, take names and right the ship. The anti-Jewish stuff was widely assumed to be mere rhetorical excess.
    If I lived in a country where Muslim thugs demanded my wife veil up, raped my countrywomen and spat on my culture while sucking up my tax dollars in welfare payments, I would be inclined to forgive any ‘rhetorical excesses” of the first political leader who stepped up to the task of smashing the invaders and righting the ship.
    The only way modern Nazis can prevail is if enlightened liberals continue to foment dysfunctional lies about culture and demographics, forcing those who bear the cost to look elsewhere for leadership.

    • #34
  5. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Concretevol:

    I personally reject Nazism being classified as a “right wing” movement by definition although it is hyper nationalistic….much like fascism.

    Hey, Bernie Sanders describes himself as nationalist and socialist.

    By definition, then . . .

    • #35
  6. Paul Dougherty Member
    Paul Dougherty
    @PaulDougherty

    I am going to go out on a limb, here and state plainly, I hate Nazis.

    One thing I find peculiar is, the resiliency of the German State. Three times in the last century, they were (twice deservedly) laid low with monumental economic blows. How is it that they are still leading Europe? If all people being equal, and fate being random, would not another country take its turn at the top? It has to be somewhat galling to be told that your opinion on foreign affairs is just one of many but when other countries circle the drain, you must throw them upon your shoulders or pay their debts and shut up about it.

    I hate Nazis.

    • #36
  7. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    Trust me, every country in Europe marvels at American justice: The Nazis wanted to set the world on fire & created millions of corpses & America mightily rewarded the Germany that obeyed them with no obvious misgivings with endless protections & lots of help to rebuild, while so many millions of their victims were left to tyranny Americans cannot even imagine. In your awesome, divine power, you made sure the victims would bow to their oppressors. America is as mysterious as God, & there is about as much point in talking back to her… But I’m sure lesser European countries are impressed with American talk about the economies & financial responsibility…

    • #37
  8. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Quinn the Eskimo:

    MarciN:

    Nick Stuart:Paraphrasing Mark Steyn, when legitimate leaders refuse to address problems, people will turn to illegitimate ones

    I was just thinking that myself.

    I think that’s true, but…

    We all ultimately have to take responsibility for our choices. People are moral agents. I get that people don’t like the way their leaders are handling immigration and don’t like that they are being ignored. But it can’t justify supporting Nazi parties.

    I agree completely.

    • #38
  9. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    Some points about Greece with Mr. Spialikos of pomocon fame. (As always, I say Ricochet could use some post-modern conservative perspectives–for example, Ricochet’s own Mr. Flagg Taylor!)

    Some notes on Greek politics & parties.

    Like other countries in the region, the people you people might like or at least of whom you might approve are hell bent for EU leather. That leaves tyrannic parties of communist & fascist make to pretend at least to stand up for Greece in the conflict with Germany / EU.

    A bit on the Greek PM, how the Greek socialists have doomed their country, & yet another party of corrupt types, who should be conservative politicians, but are acquisitive instead…

    • #39
  10. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:Strange times we live in when American conservatives — or some of them, anyway — think it makes perfect sense these days for Europeans to get their Nazi groove on. I’ve been hearing this a bit too much on Ricochet of late, . . .

    Wait, really? Honest-to-goodness Nazi apologists? Here on Ricochet?

    Even the things you’re quoting from BDB aren’t “Nazi Apologia.” Are there other examples to help sell your assertion that you’ve been “hearing this a bit too much on Ricochet of late”? Because this seems like really cheap slander. Sorry Claire, it just does.

    This is what I was gonna say.

    • #40
  11. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: Especially agreed that it might “simply be a preference for the strong horse”. That said, a simple preference for the strong horse, unqualified by any other consideration, is, I think, how people who might have remained perfectly decent otherwise end up getting themselves entangled with thugs.

    And yet… When thugs are at your door, thugs are what you need. Or, more accurately, force must be countered with force.

    The longer European politicians take to enact sensible protections of their citizens and their cultures, the more likely the conflict will be expressed in violence rather than words and laws.

    I read many accounts, of varying accuracy, about many in this invasion of migrants harassing and intimidating native Europeans. If laws don’t protect citizens, citizens will seek protections beyond law and politics.

    • #41
  12. Matt Upton Inactive
    Matt Upton
    @MattUpton

    Concretevol: I think due to Claire’s location, she is more face to face with some of the extreme Nazi like elements there and is therefore more sensitive to what may sound like excuse making for it.

    These were my thoughts after reading the post. There is no real threat of growing Nazi-like sympathies in the US. Our blended national makeup doesn’t lend itself to “racial purity” blather, and the combination of Jewish and Evangelical influence stems the tide of anti-Semitism. Sure, TV shows love to trot out the last neo-nazi bar as the greatest threat to our security, but it’s a coward’s ploy. There are far too few to be a real threat, and Hollywood would rather not name anyone who might actually pose a threat.

    To Americans, Nazi’s are comic book villains and the final destination of internet arguments. It’s not to be taken seriously. But this is only for Americans.

    My takeaway from the post is just a broadening perspective of “Yes, there are still honest-to-goodness Nazis, with non-trivial support in some countries.” Was it fair (or even reasonable) to suggest BDB’s comments had the smell of Nazi sympathies? No. But it’s good to understand where sentiments lie elsewhere.

    • #42
  13. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    It feels like we in western civilization consistently do things in the wrong order.

    First we should build the affordable housing, schools, hospitals, police, fire, and rescue departments, and parks and recreation facilities. Then we invite immigrants.

    • #43
  14. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    I’ll get upset with nazi-like parties in Europe the day after the communist parties in Europe get treated with the same disgust by the same European elite  who are so upset by the Nazis.

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    And it was Stalin’s non-aggression pact with Hitler that enabled the Nazis to start WWII.

    • #44
  15. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    Old Bathos:

    There is no elitist ruling class in Europe. Politics at continent level does not compare say with America. & all powers save Germany have really conflicted politics right now & at least going back to the crisis of ’08. Now, as for the political classes–they are lying to the various nations because the nations want the lies.

    I know both the left & right like to say the people is on their side, but that’s not so. I cannot think of any electorate in Europe save Hungary where there is strong public sentiment to limit immigration. Some electorates might put up with it & even like it, but that’s different. The political classes in Europe are destroying politics with popular consent to an extent Americans might not be able to understand–but I think the incomprehension may be broader, to include people with old liberal political opinions. The peoples of Europe might just go gently into that good night. Canadians, all of them!

    Germany after 1914 had no center. Anti-semitism was rather rife, though not like in Eastern Europe. The question was whether & where gangster politics could arise. Street gangs & veterans of the Freikorps had nothing better to do. The beer putsch failed…

    Finally, this business with Muslims doing evil & being in need of punishment. Liberalism does not think of religious or racial groups. It is individualistic. That can be a very serious weaknes in politics.

    • #45
  16. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Concretevol:

    I personally reject Nazism being classified as a “right wing” movement by definition although it is hyper nationalistic….much like fascism.

    Hey, Bernie Sanders describes himself as nationalist and socialist.

    By definition, then . . .

    Drew,

    You are making a joke, however, perhaps we need to explore this. Let us start with a situation that appears to be twisted around transnationalism.

    Transnational Corporatism v. Transnational Socialism

    Individual national populations start to feel bullied and helpless. Their values and culture are completely ignored. Decisions are made elsewhere that they have no voice in. They feel a total loss of control. One response is a National Republican Capitalist Democracy that affirms their sense of identity and their sense of individual national interest and culture. When that is thwarted by hegemonistic power then trouble ensues. The hegemonist might be China or Russia bullying its neighbors. It might be an EU obsessed with its bureaucratic perfectionism. It might be International Arbitraging Financiers meddling for some supposed enlightened ideal but really for their own gain. If the National Republican Capitalist Democracy fails then those national populations will resort to something else to give them back their sense of control.

    Ayn Rand called Fascism the crudest form of collectivism. For her collectivism was a sin to begin with. Fascism represented the deepest and darkest descent into collectivist folly.

    After WWII we moved swiftly to support National Republican Capitalist Democracies. We were not afraid to move military assets if necessary to bolster these allies and keep order. Hegemonists were to be tamed. Extreme transnationalism was not to be pursued. Transnational co-operation is good but when it descends into coercion we are in big trouble.

    I hate Nazis too.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #46
  17. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    MarciN: First we should build the affordable housing

    Don’t forget “common sense” gun control laws to go with that affordable housing and health care  :)

    • #47
  18. Robert McReynolds Inactive
    Robert McReynolds
    @RobertMcReynolds

    captainpower:Is there a list of “is a Nazi” and “not a Nazi” for the undiscerning American?

    So far, “Golden Dawn” party in Greece seems to be on the Nazi list.

    Is Nigel Farage a Nazi? What about Geert Wilders? Pim Fortuyn? Theo van Gogh?

    I’ve heard these names and heard a few things they’ve said, but haven’t spent any real time researching them other than seeing that they have “links” to toxic groups. But even then, I’m never certain whether that’s just opposition slander making more out of it than is really there, or an accurate reflection of their sympathies.

    Farage and Wilders are the furthest thing from Nazi. Farage simply wants to stand up for Great Briton, against both the EU and the immigrants who have rejected what it means to be British. Wilders is standing up for Western Civilization as a whole against the oldest enemy it has had: Islam.

    • #48
  19. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    Miffed White Male:I’ll get upset with nazi-like parties in Europe the day after the communist parties in Europe get treated with the same disgust by the same European elite who are so upset by the Nazis.

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    And it was Stalin’s non-aggression pact with Hitler that enabled the Nazis to start WWII.

    I can be hate both at the same time actually.  Your point about the commies is a valid one but I don’t get what that has to do with these modern nazis.  They are basically the other side of the same coin.  The difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Stalin was actually better at the paranoid totalitarian thing than Hitler was.

    • #49
  20. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    I did Nazi that coming.

    • #50
  21. Douglas Inactive
    Douglas
    @Douglas

    Well, the EU took national pride away in favor of a squishy, PC pan-European identity. Small wonder, then, that these peoples feel like this is the only avenue left to them to be Poles, Slovaks, Greeks, etc. Most European nations are by definition ethno-states, and always have been. When you rob them of all national… and ethnic… pride and identity, and then tell them they have to take in hordes of foreigners to boot, are you really all the surprised that they turned to the most extreme example of nationalism as a result? The more you tell Germans that “Germany” is a myth, that there is no German people, that multiculturalism is the only way, the more you’re going to get Germans that take another look at Hitler and his boys and go “Maybe they were right after all”. Angela Merkel is doing as much to bring back neo-Nazism as any skinhead rabble-rouser. Peoples should have a healthy sense of nationalism and ethnic pride if in an ethno-state. Deny them that, and you’ll get more extreme measures. Tell the Japanese that they have to be ashamed of being Japanese and take in 100K Syrians. Watch how fast they go Tojo again.

    • #51
  22. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Old Bathos:The elitist ruling class in Europe does not permit it citizenry to notice that massive Muslim immigration carries a very large downside.People will move to where voicing that concern is permissible which is now only on the extreme right.In 1930s Germany the center collapsed and the average German was forced to choose between Communists and Nazis.[…..]

    More like Liberalism collapsed and so people were forced to choose Communists or Nazis – both of the left. After all, take away the racialism/nationalism and what differentiates nazism from totalitarian communism?

    • #52
  23. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Miffed White Male:I’ll get upset with nazi-like parties in Europe the day after the communist parties in Europe get treated with the same disgust by the same European elite who are so upset by the Nazis.

    Stalin killed more people than Hitler did.

    And it was Stalin’s non-aggression pact with Hitler that enabled the Nazis to start WWII.

    It doesn’t have to be one or the other for us, though. Both are repugnant; both are simply different sides of the same anti-liberal coin.

    EDIT: I see Concretevol said the same already, right down to the same metaphor. I swear I’m not copying from his paper!

    • #53
  24. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Titus Techera:[…..]Finally, this business with Muslims doing evil & being in need of punishment. Liberalism does not think of religious or racial groups. It is individualistic. That can be a very serious weaknes in politics.

    Agreed that is a weakness, but I disagree that it’s inherent to liberalism. It’s only inherent to liberalism if we abandon federalism and subsidiarity; at the local level race and religion play an important though mostly indirect role.

    • #54
  25. Salvatore Padula Inactive
    Salvatore Padula
    @SalvatorePadula

    Ed “More like Liberalism collapsed and so people were forced to choose Communists or Nazis – both of the left. After all, take away the racialism/nationalism and what differentiates nazism from totalitarian communism?”

    Tailoring. The Nazis did tend to be more sharply turned out than the Communists.

    • #55
  26. Sabrdance Member
    Sabrdance
    @Sabrdance

    1.) The videos of Golden Dawn have been pulled.  The power of Claire…

    2.) I actually have seen the pro-Nazi argument made, but not at Ricochet, and even then, it was a more in sorrow than in anger variety of argument: the Blacks are coming because no one is doing anything about the Browns.  I think Claire has rebutted this fairly well.  Immigration is an aggravating force, not the driving one.  I’d prefer not to link it -but you can find it among the so-called “alt-Right.”

    3.) So it seems to me the driving force must be something else, and I think the nationalism is probably it.  The question is why nationalism is still tied to nation and blood in Europe.  One answer is that it never stopped being so.  To be Greek is to be also a Greek.  Though I suspect the anger at the transnationalist elite that has been mentioned helps.  In reaction to the seeming desire that we all cease being Greek or French, we act even more Greek or French.

    4.) But why not the more traditional Greek and French parties?  Here I may project my own frustration, but there is something to the “they fight” attraction.  If you want someone who is not going to be coopted by the transnationalists, then that means you need someone the transnationalists hate as much as they hate you.  For better or for worse, that list is short, extreme, and incredibly chuavanistic.

    • #56
  27. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    I’m with captainpower. Just about anybody who is a smidgeon more conservative than Joe Lieberman is described by the press as “far right-wing.” I’ve seen it applied to UKIP. I’ve seen it applied to Golden Dawn. UKIP aren’t Nazis, no matter what the BBC says. Golden Dawn are Nazis no matter what anybody says.

    You can’t tell who the players are without a scorecard. Unfortunately, the scorecard publishers suffer from a lack of nuance.

    • #57
  28. Severely Ltd. Inactive
    Severely Ltd.
    @SeverelyLtd

    I didn’t read all the comments, so if I’m restating someone’s position (and I must be), apologies.

    It sounds as if BDB is explaining the motivation of the people being sucked into supporting the neo-nazis in Europe. Nowhere was he justifying it.

    • #58
  29. Owen Findy Member
    Owen Findy
    @OwenFindy

    Paul Dougherty: It has to be somewhat galling to be told that your opinion on foreign affairs is just one of many but when other countries circle the drain

    Or Gauling…

    • #59
  30. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    The EU did not take any nation’s pride. I would like to hear some examples & any suggestion about how it happened. On my knowledge of the European races, by my eyes & my ears, there is not a lot of pride left, & there has not been in three generations. What pride was traded for prosperity since the World Wars was abandoned all too willingly. Homage to a government & all that…
    Poles, Slovaks, & Greeks have not much in common & have not been offered any EU identity. There is no one even trying to do this in Europe. The only thing that kind of rates is programs sending kids from one country to another for a semester or two in higher education. No European country is going through EU education. The only possible exception is for complicated reasons Germany, where the EU is part of the basic law, has been since ’49.
    No nation is now turning to extremes of anything. Also, the nations did turn to extremes without much provocation in the age of European tyrannies.
    This narrative of people pushing back if they get pushed too far is utterly ignorant of European history.

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