Uncle Milt’s Fencing Exhibition

 

Some weeks ago on one of the podcasts, Rob recalled Milton Friedman explaining how assuming that his opponents were arguing in good faith both added years to his life and helped him win more debates. Watching some old videos of the great man on YouTube, I came a fantastic example of the Great Man doing just that:

In it, a character straight out of casting for a 1970s student activist — you simply cannot un-see that hat — filibusters Friedman for nearly two minutes about his criticisms of “so-called communist countries” like the Soviet Union and the general wickedness of capitalism and Western colonialism, earning a round of applause from the audience for his efforts. Within minutes, however, Friedman’s utterly turned the tables, laying out all the ways in which the questioner used wrong facts to come to wrong conclusions and generally make a fool of himself. Best of all, it worked: within minutes, he’d turned the crowd, and without even seeming to break a sweat.

Righteous anger has its place as well — something one hopes the non-Trump candidates will soon rediscover and put to good use — but it’s always satisfying seeing someone win over an audience with expert parry and thrusts that don’t spill a drop of rhetorical blood

Friedman’s one of the masters, but he’s hardly alone. What are some of your favorite examples?

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  1. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:[…..] Within minutes, however, Friedman’s utterly turned the tables, laying out all the ways in which the questioner used wrong facts to come to wrong conclusions and generally make a fool of himself. Best of all, it worked: within minutes, he’d turned the crowd, and without even seeming to break a sweat.[…..]

    I agree with your scoring of the debate, Tom, but I don’t see where he turned the crowd.

    • #1
  2. Buckpasser Member
    Buckpasser
    @Buckpasser

    Tom,

    What is also interesting is how the audience actually allowed him to make his points.  That same group today would have shouted him down.  If he was even allowed to address them in the first place.

    • #2
  3. The King Prawn Inactive
    The King Prawn
    @TheKingPrawn

    Facts, data, well reasoned arguments … these mean nothing today.

    • #3
  4. Tom Meyer, Ed. Member
    Tom Meyer, Ed.
    @tommeyer

    Ed G.: I agree with your scoring of the debate, Tom, but I don’t see where he turned the crowd.

    The applause at 4′ 45″.

    • #4
  5. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    The King Prawn:Facts, data, well reasoned arguments … these mean nothing today.

    I don’t know about that. The trouble is that everyone thinks the facts, data, and reality are on their side.

    • #5
  6. Manfred Arcane Inactive
    Manfred Arcane
    @ManfredArcane

    Boy do we need a paladin of his acumen and brilliance today to be our foremost warrior for Freedom.  He was a titan, sorely missed.  Sorely missed.

    • #6
  7. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:

    Ed G.: I agree with your scoring of the debate, Tom, but I don’t see where he turned the crowd.

    The applause at 4′ 45″.

    Followed by groaning, hissing, gasping, and unfavorable outbursts especially at 7’45”. He won the crowd on that point you refer to, but this was a mixed bag at best.

    • #7
  8. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Buckpasser:Tom,

    What is also interesting is how the audience actually allowed him to make his points. That same group today would have shouted him down. If he was even allowed to address them in the first place.

    Agreed. That loss of civility alone is cause for lamentation.

    • #8
  9. The King Prawn Inactive
    The King Prawn
    @TheKingPrawn

    Ed G.:

    The King Prawn:Facts, data, well reasoned arguments … these mean nothing today.

    I don’t know about that. The trouble is that everyone thinks the facts, data, and reality are on their side.

    No one would be pining for socialism if this was the case.

    • #9
  10. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    The King Prawn:

    Ed G.:

    The King Prawn:Facts, data, well reasoned arguments … these mean nothing today.

    I don’t know about that. The trouble is that everyone thinks the facts, data, and reality are on their side.

    No one would be pining for socialism if this was the case.

    Oh I agree that somebody has to be wrong, but everyone thinks it’s the other guy and they have the facts and reasoning to prove it! I’m not necessarily talking about your average Facebook poster, although they all like to think they’re on the side of science and history, but professionals and academics too. The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    • #10
  11. Tom Riehl Member
    Tom Riehl
    @

    One of his best ever was a Q & A with Phil Donohue about angels.  Milton of course was erudite as ever, but what’s memorable to me is that Phil, a badge-wearing progressive, let him speak his piece, as did the audience.

    • #11
  12. Great Ghost of Gödel Inactive
    Great Ghost of Gödel
    @GreatGhostofGodel

    Tom Meyer, Ed.: Friedman’s one of the masters, but he’s hardly alone. What are some of your favorite examples?

    Interestingly, in the same field: Thomas Sowell and Matt Ridley.

    In Con Law: the Instapundit, Glenn Reynolds; and Antonin Scalia.

    In ecology: Bjørn Lomborg, Stewart Brand, and Matt Ridley.

    In statistics: Hans Rosling

    Libertarianism with a bit of an edge, mostly limited to non-CoC language: Penn and Teller

    • #12
  13. Casey Inactive
    Casey
    @Casey

    Buckpasser:Tom,

    What is also interesting is how the audience actually allowed him to make his points. That same group today would have shouted him down. If he was even allowed to address them in the first place.

    I’d like to give kudos to the questioner.  He didn’t have the strong position he thought he had but he had a position.  Today, having a position is the great sin.

    • #13
  14. Great Ghost of Gödel Inactive
    Great Ghost of Gödel
    @GreatGhostofGodel

    Casey:

    I’d like to give kudos to the questioner. He didn’t have the strong position he thought he had but he had a position. Today, having a position is the great sin.

    I was also struck by his coherence, respectfulness, and sincere effort to move along when asked to do so. Also the fact that he’d written his question, presumably to stay both on point and within a proscribed length. He didn’t grandstand; he didn’t shout; he didn’t have a small army of thugs to disrupt the proceedings.

    He had a question.

    • #14
  15. Stu In Tokyo Inactive
    Stu In Tokyo
    @StuInTokyo

    Ed G.:

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:[…..] Within minutes, however, Friedman’s utterly turned the tables, laying out all the ways in which the questioner used wrong facts to come to wrong conclusions and generally make a fool of himself. Best of all, it worked: within minutes, he’d turned the crowd, and without even seeming to break a sweat.[…..]

    I agree with your scoring of the debate, Tom, but I don’t see where he turned the crowd.

    At 4:48 his point on Hong Kong and China, which way the flow of people was going, the crowd reacted well to his point.

    • #15
  16. Ryan M Inactive
    Ryan M
    @RyanM

    Yeah, that hat is ridiculous.  And, of course, the glasses indoors.

    I’m often amazed at the way people dress today, and this is a good reminder that there is nothing new under the sun.

    • #16
  17. Pseudodionysius Inactive
    Pseudodionysius
    @Pseudodionysius

    Venus Flytrap seems too intelligent to be limited to the FM radio dial.

    • #17
  18. Johnny Dubya Inactive
    Johnny Dubya
    @JohnnyDubya

    I enjoyed MF’s dismissive waving away of the heckler’s assertion that Cuba was a colony of the U.S. Sometimes, you subtly have to let a fool know that he’s a fool.

    • #18
  19. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Ed G.:The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    Ahem.

    • #19
  20. Great Ghost of Gödel Inactive
    Great Ghost of Gödel
    @GreatGhostofGodel

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Ed G.:The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    Ahem.

    You’re not claiming midget faded rattlesnakes aren’t rare, are you?

    • #20
  21. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Great Ghost of Gödel:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Ed G.:The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    Ahem.

    You’re not claiming midget faded rattlesnakes aren’t rare, are you?

    I am not so vain as to think of my particular species as the only genuine snake.

    • #21
  22. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Great Ghost of Gödel:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Ed G.:The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    Ahem.

    You’re not claiming midget faded rattlesnakes aren’t rare, are you?

    Leave me alone you microaggressors! Oh my, I need to get to a safe space.

    • #22
  23. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Ed G.:

    Great Ghost of Gödel:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Ed G.:The genuine snake is pretty rare in my experience.

    Ahem.

    You’re not claiming midget faded rattlesnakes aren’t rare, are you?

    Leave me alone you microaggressors! Oh my, I need to get to a safe space.

    Shame on you for shaming diminutive pit vipers! “Micro-agressors” indeed!

    • #23
  24. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Ryan M:Yeah, that hat is ridiculous. And, of course, the glasses indoors.

    I’m often amazed at the way people dress today, and this is a good reminder that there is nothing new under the sun.

    I’ve been looking for a good 8-panel cap.  I had one years ago but wore it out.  I’m not sure that’s what the kid had, but maybe it’s close enough.  I’d like to have one in a more neutral color, though I wouldn’t refuse to wear one like his.

    I prefer Friedman’s political point of view to his, though.  I’m glad the great man didn’t let himself get bothered by the cap, though it would be interesting to see him wear one like it.

    • #24
  25. Ryan M Inactive
    Ryan M
    @RyanM

    The Reticulator:

    Ryan M:Yeah, that hat is ridiculous. And, of course, the glasses indoors.

    I’m often amazed at the way people dress today, and this is a good reminder that there is nothing new under the sun.

    I’ve been looking for a good 8-panel cap. I had one years ago but wore it out. I’m not sure that’s what the kid had, but maybe it’s close enough. I’d like to have one in a more neutral color, though I wouldn’t refuse to wear one like his.

    I prefer Friedman’s political point of view to his, though. I’m glad the great man didn’t let himself get bothered by the cap, though it would be interesting to see him wear one like it.

    Absurd outfits do not render a person’s arguments invalid, I agree.  Wearing shades indoors is exceedingly disrespectful, though.  Wearing a hat in a setting like that is also disrespectful.  That man’s entire movement – which today is the black lives matter movement – is one of entitlement and disrespect.  If Milton Friedman were to wear an outfit like that, he would likely know when a change of attire is necessary.  No, your clothing doesn’t make you wrong or right, but it sure does say a lot about you.

    • #25
  26. Pony Convertible Inactive
    Pony Convertible
    @PonyConvertible

    As to the question in you last paragraph.  Lee Iacocca was on Phil Donahue back when Chrysler was struggling and seeking a government bailout.  Donahue was on the attack, and was determined to make Iacocca and Chrysler look bad.   Iacocca turned the show into a hour long Chrysler commercial.  At one point Donahue just held his microphone by the cord and let it hang.  He knew he had been soundly defeated, so did the audience.

    • #26
  27. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Tom Meyer, thank you very much for bringing up this clip. It’s one of my all time favorites. I am also grateful that Ricochet is so polite. When I first saw this odd-hatted gentleman I was indignant.

    In my defense, he was defending Mao’s China. So you know, he was actively supporting a Government that killed more innocent people than any other Government that has existed in the history of man. But really, I did not give him enough credit for being concise, polite and attentive.

    I know this is a very odd request but I’d like to know what happened to this fellow. Is he still an unrepentant Marxist? I thought a rather uncharitable thought when I watched him previously. I surmised that he did not care about the incredible suffering of people who live under communism. Now I think that was too harsh.

    • #27
  28. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    To ask a hard question, why isn’t this hat-guy treated like a fascist sympathizer. He has advocated for regimes that systematically killed peaceable ethnic and religious minorities.

    An eternity ago I used to date a Tibetan girl. She nearly cried when she recounted how her parents told her that Chinese  Communist soldiers forced her village to dishonor a picture of the Dalai Lama. (Forgive me but I can’t remember if the soldiers forced the villagers to spit on the Dalai Lama picture or step on it or burn it. I can only recall it was some sort of desecration.)

    I don’t think this odd-hatted fellow is a vicious evil human being. But he defended a vicious and evil polity. Shouldn’t he get a little grief for that?

    • #28
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