Promoted from the Ricochet Member Feed by Editors Created with Sketch. Niqabs, Hijabs, and Habits: How Do We React?

 
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The presence of many women wearing head coverings is rather new to America. Under presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama many US cities have received large groups of designated refugees* from Muslim nations, and this has meant also receiving large groups of women who wear a variety of Muslim coverings ranging from headscarves, head and neck coverings, and full on coverings that leave only the face exposed (I have even observed the wearing of gloves). What are we to make of this recent phenomenon?

Columbus, Ohio was the butt of Ohio jokes for decades when compared with booming cultural and industrial centers like Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Toledo. It was known as a cow town and a farming clearing house, whose only notable industries were small regional insurance offices, regional banks, and some Westinghouse and AC Delco plants. Sure, we had a Bell Labs campus and the famed Battelle research institute, but we were still a small player compared to the other cities. That was the town I grew-up in. It’s not the Columbus that exists today.

The banks and insurance companies grew and made Columbus a major center of operations, building new towers downtown and massive centers all over the north suburbs. Les Wexner — the founder of Limited Brands and Victoria’s Secret — brought his corporate operations here from New York City, along with many employees. The north side of Columbus is full of very upscale cultural centers, shopping to rival New York, and restaurants that would make southern California proud. Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Toledo have declined, but Columbus has thrived and grown, experiencing a rapid cultural shift from a sleepy cow town to a high tech and high culture center, all within 30 years.

Yet this has not been the only cultural shift. Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama have also designated Columbus as a location for shifting massive numbers of designated refugees — from Somalia in particular — and much of the Middle East in general. I do not know the full numbers, but any time you go out shopping or dining you will encounter these people. On Fridays and Sundays in particular you will likely encounter large groups of Somali women shopping at groceries or at the nearest Costco.

It is not as if Ohio has not had prior waves of foreign immigration. For years, Toledo was known for its Polish and Lebanese communities, and Time — the great mover — has seen those communities absorbed and disbursed. Yet those communities had much in common with pre-existing culture, and moreover arrived during times when assimilation was encouraged. Further, these groups of people arrived of their own volition, looking for work. We did not have the US Government actively moving large blocks, the migration was natural and limited in time, with immigrants screened at the border, not a diktat of the State Department.

So the question becomes one of how we react. I must admit that seeing large groups of women, donned from head to toe in black niqabs, is discomfiting. The less restrictive hijab has recently been the subject of controversy as the Columbus police force declined to employ a woman as an officer when she insisted on wearing the hijab with her police uniform (there is an ongoing lawsuit, of course). But another Ricochet member asked why we should not feel equally uncomfortable with nun in her full habit. I could extend the question to the dress of the Amish, or the Mennonites too.

Part of the answer is, of course, lack of experience with the former over the latter. Nuns are part of our culture already, an expression of certain elements of Christian faith. The same could be said of the Amish and Mennonites, whose dress would have been unremarkable a century ago when all women were essentially equally covered (at least in terms of skin exposed, there were obvious fashion differences if you could afford it). There is also the fact that nun has chosen such garb voluntarily as part of a special religious order, while the Amish and Mennonites will allow their members to leave. Islam is frequently in the news when Muslim women attempt to leave and are punished, so there is often the concern that the women we see so covered may well be coerced into it.

But there is also the speculation that — were it not for State Department orders, Federal intervention, and UN mandates — these communities would likely not be here in the first place. Just as we wonder if the hijab or niqab was forced, we also wonder if their presence in our communities was forced too. Further still, we wonder if, in our general cultural malaise, where Political Correctness actively discourages assimilation, these communities will remain apart from the rest of America, or if we will absorb these groups too.

So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

Final Note – Keep this civil. Emotions run high here, as witnessed in recent threads. This is not the place to bandying names ascribing beliefs where they are not explicitly expressed.

*Designated Refugees“An individual who is outside his or her country of origin due to a well-founded fear of persecution based on race, religion, nationality, social group or political opinion who is unable to, or owing to such a fear, unwilling to avail him- or herself of the protection of that country. The definition is sometimes expanded to include people fleeing war or other armed conflict.”

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  1. Casey Inactive

    My sister-in-law covers. When we first met she didn’t, then loosely draped, and now more formally. To be honest, it doesn’t really strike me one way or another.

    • #1
    • June 15, 2015, at 9:35 PM PDT
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  2. Hope Inactive

    Interesting post, especially to a fellow Columbusite (though I arrived probably ca. half-way through its cultural transition).

    A few thoughts about the similarity/differences with nuns Amish/Old Order Mennonite garb. I grew up near Philly, so those were fairly common, and they’re somewhat equally eye-catching, with certainly some similarities in the thinking behind them. But (1) neither of those groups usually covers their faces (and Amish/Mennonite don’t normally fully cover their hair), (2) Amish/Mennonite men also dress in a distinctive way, and clothing is almost the least unusual thing about that lifestyle, and (3) nuns, which are the most similar to Muslim covering, are known to have fully dedicated their lives to the God and the church. So their habits are something that are meant to set them apart as special and separate from “normal” women. So I don’t think it’s just a matter of being more used to them.

    I don’t see the groups of Somali very often, but working at OSU, I’ve gotten used to seeing the more typical Muslim female covering — head scarf or fuller covering, long sleeves, long skirt. I don’t really even notice it anymore. But the full burqa and niqab are still pretty uncommon and do catch the attention. They don’t really make me uncomfortable; I think I mostly feel sorry for the women, especially when it’s hot. But covering the face is odd (cf. anyone in a ski mask).

    • #2
    • June 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM PDT
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  3. Ray Kujawa Coolidge

    I just happened to listen this evening to a UK style town hall type meeting about this and there are so many opinions, more than you can shake a stick at. Some women insisting they wear them for spiritual reasons, many have differing interpretations how much of the body needs to be covered (including when you are part of a jury), one well read guy said the wasn’t any so-called freedom for women to decide on their own, that all the different sects everywhere insist a woman needs to be clothed. Some non-muslim women insisted that it was all about subjugation.

    I know because of the foregoing paragraph, I feel the need to take the unusual step of making a disclaimer, just so you all will know where I’m coming from. It confuses the heck out of us Americans trying to digest opinions coming from people we don’t know where they come from, so I’m going to share that I am a second generation American, and I have lived in America all my life and only spent only 10 days of my life overseas on vacation in a country whose name begins with I and ends in L. The following is coming from me speaking as an American, rightly or wrongly, just to be clear.

    I don’t know what to think about this subject if I have to discuss it in a global context, i.e., practices outside America. Some of these attitudes might be valid in America, I don’t know, but my gut feel is that there is a less variation in the Americas, probably less in America herself, and Americans — being very forthcoming as we are (aka, not exactly shrinking violets) — are more likely to tell people to their faces what they think of certain practices that strike them negatively. At that point, since this is a free country, there ought to be a sharing of values that stops short of coming to blows. If a person can honestly stand up and defend their own feelings and values to a stranger, then maybe attitudes will change. But in these situations, there has to be a premium on honesty. Less in your face and ‘take that.’

    • #3
    • June 15, 2015, at 10:49 PM PDT
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  4. Snirtler Inactive

    But there is also the speculation that were it not for State Department orders, Federal intervention, and UN mandates, that these communities would likely not be here in the first place. Just as we wonder if the hijab or niqab was forced, we also wonder if their presence in our communities was forced too

    Skip, I don’t get the part above. If these women are refugees, one could suppose they prefer to be in the United States than to be in the country they left behind.

    … we wonder if, in our general cultural malaise, where Political Correctness actively discourages assimilation, these communities will remain apart from the rest of America, or if we will absorb these groups too.

    As for women covering themselves in the Muslim fashion, the mere fact that they do is insufficient to conclude (not that I think you’ve done so) they have no inclination to assimilate.

    • #4
    • June 15, 2015, at 11:07 PM PDT
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  5. Zafar Member

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    • #5
    • June 15, 2015, at 11:38 PM PDT
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  6. Brian Wolf Coolidge

    We need to always go with the principle of religious freedom. The gut instinct is to let them be who they are and where what they want. We are a free country or at least we should be.

    On the other hand we have laws against abuse even within families. If a woman is beaten for wearing the wrong clothes then the authorities should enforce the law and not stay out of it because it involves immigrants. Beyond that all reasonable accommodations should be made and our laws should be enforced fairly and evenly.

    Any discomfort we feel for the practices should be dealt with by the individual with the discomfort it is not the job of the immigrants to make you feel better about how they live, it is your job to be polite to them.

    If we do that I think you will see the forces of assimilation doing their job and members of this community will convert to Christianity or atheism or moderate Islam that is very embracing of secular culture or any number of other options available to them in America.

    • #6
    • June 16, 2015, at 12:32 AM PDT
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  7. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive

    This oppressive covering is unlike habits or Amish dress for a number of reasons, but here is what matters: neither the Amish nor nuns of the Catholic Church threaten to upend our civilization. The discomfiture you experience is an appropriate minimum response to seeing the death of our culture as it dawns.

    Individually, the ladies are not a threat, and are perhaps thrilled to be here, and would love to assimilate. But that is not what is going to happen, for reasons you and others have already mentioned.

    Conservatives have elected Republicans who do not see fit to fight our battles, and therefore the war will be fought in the streets for better or for worse.

    • #7
    • June 16, 2015, at 1:04 AM PDT
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  8. Valiuth Member
    ValiuthJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Frankly, while I find the sight of fully garbed Muslim women strange, I don’t really think it is in any way stranger to me than the Amish or even how certain very Orthodox Jews dress.

    I lived for several years in Lancaster PA. So I have seen plenty of Amish people, and I must say they stick out in a crowd, and as a kid (I lived there between 4-7th grade) I certainly stared at them when ever I saw them. Now I also lived in Columbus for awhile too, and I don’t recall seeing many Somali Muslims there, but it sounds like they have come fairly recently.

    In the west covering ones face has nefarious connotations (ie. criminals cover their faces to mask their identity, or those who suffer disfiguring scars or injuries) so I agree it is weird to come across people who do it as a matter of daily dress, but I think that is more our problem rather than theirs. After all we are a free country aren’t we? So long as people are willing to remove their covering for long enough to be able to be IDed when legally asked to do so, I say they can keep doing whatever they want. Especially if they feel it is a religious prerogative.

    • #8
    • June 16, 2015, at 1:42 AM PDT
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  9. E. Kent Golding Member

    • #9
    • June 16, 2015, at 2:51 AM PDT
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  10. ctlaw Coolidge

    Columbus is a state capital. State capitals generally accumulate wealth at the point of a gun.

    • #10
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:14 AM PDT
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  11. Trink Coolidge
    TrinkJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Skipsul. Yours is a thoughtful, thorough telling of what has happened here in Ohio.

    To your – painful- question as to: ” . . . . how we should react.”

    As you and others have pointed out – respect for individual rights and differences.

    But should isn’t humankind’s default response.

    I find myself emotionally and mentally recoiling when, over the past 20 years, I see more and more muslim women here in northwest Ohio – walking in full garb behind a husband who is in western clothes – madrid shirt and shorts.

    Clothing makes a statement. From man’s first animal hide ensembles – it was meant to convey messages of status, success and finally affiliations.

    I’m sorry.

    Islam: Peace, purity – submission and obedience.

    Fine for them – But I fear that I’m their target for the submission and obedience part.

    P.S. And I should add: Years ago I walked into a small eatery by accident as I’d been looking for something in a strip mall. This was pre 9-11. I still see the dark looks in the eyes of the bearded men leaning over a table at the back – as I walked in. All conversation stopped. I beat it out of there.

    • #11
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:21 AM PDT
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  12. Trink Coolidge
    TrinkJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    My niece works in obstetrics at Grant Hospital as a nurse.

    She is one of the kindest-hearted beings you’re likely to encounter.

    Her Somali patients treat her like a servant.

    • #12
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:31 AM PDT
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  13. Leigh Member

    I suspect that, in the end, if our immigration policy and our Middle Eastern policy were sane, this would be something that America could handle naturally, and few would question a policy of “live and let live.”

    The concern is coercion. But that has existed in other immigrant communities, and to what extent must the government intrude itself to discover that coercion? Perhaps the best answer is for local authorities in some of these communities to publicly communicate that, in America, there can be a way out.

    As for my personal reaction, headscarfs are fine. No problem. If they were the style for American women, or if I lived in a country where that was the norm, I’d wear them. Any covering that at least leaves the face exposed still lets you get a sense of the person you are interacting with. A complete covering that shows only the eyes (if that) is deeply troubling and dehumanizing.

    • #13
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:38 AM PDT
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  14. Titus Techera Contributor

    Zafar:

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    Can you see them? Please share-

    • #14
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:42 AM PDT
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  15. Titus Techera Contributor

    Brian Wolf:We need to always go with the principle of religious freedom. The gut instinct is to let them be who they are and where what they want. We are a free country or at least we should be.

    & then you go on to qualify it so much, I wonder what’ left of it. How do you know what these strange people do? What things do they do that your laws prohibit? You have & can have no idea up until it’s too late! After it’s too late, the authorities & every mother’s American son & daughter can say, well, it was private life, privacy, & religious freedom, after all, who were we to judge & how could we have known?

    Or then again, how are these people to know what your laws are if your opening move is religious freedom? You do not eat or drink or worship with them!

    • #15
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:46 AM PDT
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  16. Leigh Member

    One other thought. There’s a phenomenon seen frequently in the UK, and I haven’t spent enough time in parts of the US with large Muslim populations to know if it’s occurring here as well. But you see three generations of women walk into the store. The grandmother is wearing a full niqab. Her daughter is wearing a headscarf and long, loose-fitting clothing. The granddaughters are in jeans and a t-shirt — maybe with a headscarf, and maybe not.

    • #16
    • June 16, 2015, at 4:48 AM PDT
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  17. Zafar Member

    Titus Techera:

    Zafar:

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    Can you see them? Please share-

    Every individual has some gifts, and every culture has something good about it. Nobody is a caricature of pure evil.

    It isn’t a zero sum game – appreciating people from one part of the world doesn’t mean you have to appreciate people from another part less. It isn’t a competition.

    • #17
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:19 AM PDT
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  18. Titus Techera Contributor

    Zafar:

    Titus Techera:

    Zafar:

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    Can you see them? Please share-

    Every individual has some gifts, and every culture has something good about it. Nobody is a caricature of pure evil.

    It isn’t a zero sum game – appreciating people from one part of the world doesn’t mean you have to appreciate people from another part less. It isn’t a competition.

    This is the worst thing I’ve yet read you to say. Unless you’re saying, I’m saying something about caricatures of pure evil, why are you bringing this up?

    It is infinitely besides the point. It is perfectly possible that one ‘culture’ has nothing good to contribute to another. That has nothing to do with evil or with caricature.

    As for every individual having gifts, that is impossible to prove. A pious lie, it seems to me. & completely besides the point.

    As for ‘appreciating people’, egad, man!, does it occur to you that what is worrying people here is how so many Muslims treat their women like barbarians!

    • #18
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:27 AM PDT
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  19. Ball Diamond Ball Inactive

    Zafar:

    Titus Techera:

    Zafar:

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    Can you see them? Please share-

    Every individual has some gifts, and every culture has something good about it. Nobody is a caricature of pure evil.

    It isn’t a zero sum game – appreciating people from one part of the world doesn’t mean you have to appreciate people from another part less. It isn’t a competition.

    Nobody said anything about a caricature of pure evil. Shame on you. I got redacted for not even coming close to telling you what I think of this tactic, so I’ll just point out the low and dishonest claim you make here — even if only by implication, which has the benefit of a Clintonian cover story. Not buying it.

    • #19
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:35 AM PDT
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  20. Scott Wilmot Member

    I grew up in northern OH so seeing Amish and Mennonite and Catholic religious sisters in habit was part of my culture – in other words it was normal but different to the majority.

    I have lived 5 years each in Qatar and Indonesia.

    In Qatar, the hijab and burqa were the normal and mandatory dress for Qatari women. I didn’t react to the hijab because I could see the woman’s face – to me it was a similar reaction to seeing an Amish woman or a Catholic sister in habit. But the burqa was something different – not being able to see the face makes them very distant and even frightening (especially when you would see one next to you in a car driving, wondering to yourself if they could see anything).

    In Indonesia, the jilbab was probably worn by a majority of the muslim women but is only mandated in Aceh (under Sharia law). For many it was not just a religious expression but a fashion statement. Many of the young muslim women I worked with would not cover when single but would when married. Islam came to Indonesia via India and the culture of Indonesia has done much to influence Islam there.

    I have yet to see any burqa-clad women in the USA yet, but I suspect my reaction would be similar to what I had in Qatar.

    • #20
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:36 AM PDT
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  21. Barkha Herman Inactive

    Reminds me of this one incident in India. I was waiting in a line at a pharmacy, age around 14-15. There was a man with twin daughters, about 4 years old – giggling, telling stories, being 4 year olds. When a Muslim woman, dressed in Burka joined the line. The two girls noticed and were alarmed. They were curious so they started scoping her. After a few minutes, they had their conclusion. They told their father that there was a ghost in the line. The father was embarrassed, and tried telling the girls it was not a ghost, but the girls wouldn’t have it.

    Reactions are a reflection of our experience, our judgement. I find that covering up that much is a bit much, but I can’t claim to be for freedom and not let a person cover up.

    I did go to school with a Muslim girl who told me that nail polish was the blood of the devil and non-muslims were unclean. I bullied her and made her cry for that. Oh well. We went to her wedding (we weren’t all that bad in our bullying – we made up when she stopped calling us the devil). She married a man old enough to be her father. I don’t know what became of her, but I wish her happiness.

    While I know that she chose a different path than me, I am sure we had a net positive impact on each others lives.

    • #21
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:43 AM PDT
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  22. Titus Techera Contributor

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    Zafar:

    Titus Techera:

    Zafar:

    skipsul:So the question returns again to how we should react. What is your experience? What are your gut instincts? What is your own reaction? What indeed should the US do?

    Do not underestimate the assimilative strength of America. By the same token, realise that assimilation affects both the migrants and the receiving culture. It is never just a one way street – and migrants usually come bearing gifts, if only you can see them.

    Can you see them? Please share-

    Every individual has some gifts, and every culture has something good about it. Nobody is a caricature of pure evil.

    It isn’t a zero sum game – appreciating people from one part of the world doesn’t mean you have to appreciate people from another part less. It isn’t a competition.

    My goodness, the contempt you must hold the readership in to attempt such a damned lie.

    I don’t know that that is true. I think he might just be way too nice-

    • #22
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:54 AM PDT
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  23. Titus Techera Contributor

    Scott Wilmot:I grew up in northern OH so seeing Amish and Mennonite and Catholic religious sisters in habit was part of my culture – in other words it was normal but different to the majority.

    I have lived 5 years in Qatar and Indonesia.

    In Qatar, the hijab and burqa were the normal and mandatory dress for Qatari women. I didn’t react to the hijab because I could see the woman’s face – to me it was a similar reaction to seeing an Amish woman or a Catholic sister in habit. But the burqa was something different – not being able to see the face makes them very distant and even frightening (especially when you would see one next to you in a car driving, wondering to yourself if they could see anything).

    In Indonesia, the jilbab was probably worn by a majority of the muslim women but is only mandated in Aceh (under Sharia law). For many it was not just a religious expression but a fashion statement. Many of the young muslim women I worked with would not cover when single but would when married. Islam came to Indonesia via India and the culture of Indonesia has done much to influence Islam there.

    I have yet to see any burqa-clad women in the USA yet, but I suspect my reaction would be similar to what I had in Qatar.

    Thanks for the story. What do you mean, fashion statement?

    • #23
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:59 AM PDT
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  24. Barkha Herman Inactive

    Another time, having immigrated to the U.S. at age 21, I was going back home for the first time in years. The layover was in Abu Dhabi. I had heard stories of wealth and prosperity in the middle east. Some people, especially Muslims and Christians from India went to work in the middle east to “get rich”. It was a long flight, and I remember getting off the plane in Abu Dhabi. What I found was mostly men, and any women I did encounter were clad in Burkas. I stayed for a bit, but felt very uncomfortable. The plane was to continue to Mumbai, and I went back and hung out with the cleaning crew on the plane.

    The chaos of Fort Lauder including some personal insults were more bearable than the quiet discipline of censored women and wealthy well mannered men.

    • #24
    • June 16, 2015, at 5:59 AM PDT
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  25. Amy Schley, Longcat Shrinker Moderator

    Trink:My niece works in obstetrics at Grant Hospital as a nurse.

    She is one of the kindest-hearted beings you’re likely to encounter.

    Her Somali patients treat her like a servant.

    I work selling shoes. I get plenty of respect from my Somali customers. My Asian and highly educated patients treat me like a servant. Some people are jerks, and they are rarely identifiable by their clothing or ethnic background.

    I operate on the principle that I should assume unless otherwise indicated that people’s clothing choices are their own, and that clothing particularly worn for religious reasons should be respected. It pains me that even in our country iWe feels it necessary to wear a baseball cap over his kippah because too many people wouldn’t respect him as an outed Jew — that once the religious clothing is spotted, he ceases to be a human being and instead becomes an Other.

    Now, his kippah can be hidden from hostile eyes, and unless you were observant and thoughtful one might not catch that he never wears anything besides long sleeves and pants for religiously mandated modesty. The Temple garments worn by Mormons are hidden from prying eyes. But Muslimas honor God in ways that can be seen by all, and for that all too many people refuse to see them as people but instead as potential terrorists or browbeaten victims.

    • #25
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:04 AM PDT
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  26. Amy Schley, Longcat Shrinker Moderator

    When I was flying from Newark to Kansas City years ago, there was a Muslim family on my flight. They walked past my seat, the stressed father with the bags and the harried mother with a tired toddler dragging on one arm and holding an infant on her hip. Instead of demanding that potential terrorists be thrown off my plane or giving her a lecture on how this is a free country and so we’ll protect her from the evil men who are subjugating her, I simply gave her the Arabic greeting “a salaam alaikum.” Instead of condemning me for having half my decollatege out like a Western slut, she very appreciatively said “Thank you” and through her askew niqab I could see an enormous smile on her face. Someone had seen her as a woman and a mother, not just as a scary or pitiful Muslima.

    At my shoe store, we have a Somali family who are our regular customers. The husband is a kind, gentle man who wears traditional male Somali garments, the wife is confident and well-spoken, and their elementary-school age daughter is well-mannered and adorable (and not dressed like a slut like so many of the girls in the mall). They are some of my favorite customers, and the fact that the mother and daughter wear hijab doesn’t make a difference to me.

    I don’t know how y’all want to react to Muslimas, but that’s how I do.

    • #26
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:05 AM PDT
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  27. Zafar Member

    Titus Techera:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    My goodness, the contempt you must hold the readership in to attempt such a damned lie.

    I don’t know that that is true. I think he might just be way too nice-

    It didn’t bug me BDB, fwiw. But the thing is, I didn’t write something I thought was untrue, and believing that people can be more than the sum of their fears isn’t treating them with contempt, it’s the opposite.

    (Oh and thank you Titus, that’s nice of you to say about me though I don’t think it’s true.)

    • #27
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:12 AM PDT
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  28. Titus Techera Contributor

    So giving a traditional Muslim greeting is recognition of womanhood & motherhood? I like a moral with my stories as much as the next guy, but this is laying it on a bit thick.

    As for clothing choices–they may be clothing choices, they may not be. However it may be with individuals–not all communities are made up of what Americans call individuals. Has no one in America had experience of parents who tyrannize their children? Of children who are not proclaiming their freedom but instead submitting to the abuse? Cannot that happen in communities as well?

    First, let’s leave the Mennonites out of the broader conversation–we always do, except in this episode of Longmire–& focus on the Amish, like in that movie with Indiana Jones. Are the Amish really known or suspected on any evidence of what Americans humorously call oppression?

    Secondly, just because everyone here is so sure of individualism does not mean everyone else is as well. I have seen women who seemed to me to act like servants to their men–walking behind & all that. I have heard really ugly stories about Muslim communities throughout Europe & North America. I find it easy for that reason to suspect that they are not as lawful as other communities. Whether that applies to any individual is anyone’s guess, but unless there is in fact no evidence that Muslim communities teach & practice habits we know to be criminal, it must apply to quite a number of individuals.

    • #28
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:13 AM PDT
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  29. Scott Wilmot Member

    Titus Techera: Thanks for the story.

    My pleasure.

    Titus Techera: What do you mean, fashion statement?

    Some Indonesian women will wear the jilbab only for formal occasions and will try to match the jilbab to their intricately embroidered lace kebaya or hand painted batik outfit. The young ladies in our office would also have an array of colored jilbabs to match what they were wearing – it was not just black as was the case in Qatar. Those devout Indonesian women who would not wear a jilbab daily would however cover themselves in their white prayer vestments when praying (especially during Ramadan).

    • #29
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:14 AM PDT
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  30. Zafar Member

    Titus Techera:

    This is the worst thing I’ve yet read you to say. Unless you’re saying, I’m saying something about caricatures of pure evil, why are you bringing this up?

    As for ‘appreciating people’, egad, man!, does it occur to you that what is worrying people here is how so many Muslims treat their women like barbarians!

    I do get that Titus, but assuming that all Muslims treat women badly, or that there is nothing positive that Muslim individuals can contribute to a society as migrants is caricaturing them.

    • #30
    • June 16, 2015, at 6:15 AM PDT
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