Do We Believe in Libraries?

 

Atlanta_Public_LibraryJust something I’ve been turning over in my head for a while. Not something I’m considering from a political angle as any change would be almost impossible politically.

On the pro side: It’s true that libraries act as subsidies, but they do so in the most benign way possible. The only people who can take advantage of the subsidized education merit it by their hard work. Furthermore, they’re the best possible people to subsidize since they’re the most likely to make good use of the resources provided. And when we get someone like that, it pays off big. And in the end, libraries aren’t all that expensive.

On the con side: How expensive are books, actually? I mean you can get all kinds of stuff cheap at a second hand store, and the poor in America can afford iPhones. The kind of kid who’s going to spend enough time in a library to be useful will get his hands on the books and succeed anyway. Saying that libraries aren’t all that expensive doesn’t help any, because most things on the book “aren’t all that expensive” when you compare them with the rest of the government’s budget. Besides, those places are hotbeds of government workers, or hadn’t you noticed?

And one more question: If we really believed in getting the information out there, why wouldn’t we make a million ebook copies of it and let anyone download it who wanted to?

So what do you think? Should we keep paying for libraries in this day and age?

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  1. user_2505 Contributor
    user_2505
    @GaryMcVey

    It’s a tough call today, Hank. Many urban library systems, in a sometimes superficial exaggeration seem to be posing as Temples of Reason, literally gathering places for the bookish and unchurched–the brethren of NPR.

    But it’s true that in many cases, the service they’re rendering is providing a safe, quiet place in the late afternoon and early evening for poor kids to do homework; I’ve seen it. So? Is that such a stretch for the Leviathan state? That’s the kind of thing you can’t download or launch from a screen.

    No question; of course the nature of what they do is going to continue to experience change they haven’t seen in centuries. Libraries will have a tough time keeping up and delivering value to citizens and taxpayers–as much as possible, the same thing. They may not make it. But there’s something a little more than a weak sentimental attachment to the idea, in an assimilationist democracy, that even the most humble of us can study and achieve great things. I’m sure there are economic theorists and Galt’s Gulch rugged individualists who could come up with utopian answers we couldn’t sell to the public in any case. Public libraries aren’t going the way of Blockbuster yet.

    • #1
  2. captainpower Inactive
    captainpower
    @captainpower

    I’ve noticed quite a few VHS tapes, and now DVDs creeping into the library. Comic books, manga, and graphic novels too. I wonder how much expense goes toward that.

    On the other hand, aren’t library costs local-ish (maybe countywide?)?

    A community that cares, can make an outstanding library.

    • #2
  3. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @EustaceCScrubb

    I love libraries. And thought they often are run by liberals, they are usually run at a local level compared to other institutions. The internet has made part of their service less relevant, the classics are there at our fingertips. But our kids learned to love books in libraries, as did I.  Local libraries, theaters, concert halls, constructed by choice by communities and paid for by communities are good things. These things brought to poor communities by charity are good things (go Carnegie!) I’m thankful, though, there is not a Federal Bureau of Libraries.

    • #3
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    A lot of local libraries are discarding their traditional role. That works to my benefit, because I buy some of the books they throw out – sometimes hard-to-find items that have been out of print for decades – for low prices through Amazon sellers, and populate my own bookshelves with them.

    But I’ve used dozens of local libraries in Michigan, Indiana, and other states.  Most of them have local history collections that contain materials that don’t exist elsewhere, or are not easy to find elsewhere.  It will be quite some time before all these collections are digitized.  I often go into a library I’ve never visited before and ask if there is a Michigan room (or Indiana room).  Usually there is, although there are some places where I get directed to the local historical society in another building, with more restricted hours, which maintains the kind of  materials I’m looking for.

    Public libraries have been a success story for the most part, and I sometimes vote to support them when it comes to ballot issues.  The closest we’ve come to a Federal Bureau of Libraries and its attendant abuses was when the Democrats who run  these libraries bought up Bill and Hillary Clinton’s books in abnormally large quantities to sit on their shelves, unread.  There are also cases where libraries run speaker bureaus, from whose ranks the politically incorrect are excluded.

    • #4
  5. John Hanson Coolidge
    John Hanson
    @JohnHanson

    Public support for libraries is just fine, as long as the support is state and local, Federal dollars should never be spent on such.  There were periods in my life when I couldn’t afford a paperback (they cost a lot less then), and heavily used libraries, I still use them occasionally, (why pay for a book I only sort-of-want to read once maybe?) and more frequently as a place with “free” access to the internet, when I am away from home, or when power is out at the house, but not at the library (Happens at least twice a year in NW NJ)

    • #5
  6. Son of Spengler Member
    Son of Spengler
    @SonofSpengler

    I posted some thoughts here: http://ricochet.com/archives/public-enemies-no-1-2-3/

    In retrospect, I find it interesting that the comments gravitated to the question of public libraries when I was trying to make a more general point about the slippery mission of “public” cultural institutions generally.

    I use my local public library quite often, but I think a combination of slippery mission and technology has taken the public value out of the concept. And that’s before you get to the liberal bias of librarians or the rampant misuse of facilities in some places for homeless shelters (and even porn surfing). Better to lower everyone’s taxes, and let them spend the difference at Amazon.com.

    • #6
  7. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Yes, we should build and support libraries. A library is a secular holy place. It should be the first thing any community establishes once its basic needs for security and infrastructure are met.

    • #7
  8. billy Inactive
    billy
    @billy

    If it weren’t for public libraries, the homeless would have no place to masturbate while watching internet porn.

    • #8
  9. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    My feelings about public libraries are presented in posts I wrote for the Osprey blog about a book I am writing.  You can read them here and here.

    Today I still rely on public libraries to reseach my books.  Inter-library loan remains valuable.  A combination of online libraries (like archive.org) and having earned enough through writing to afford to purchase the research materials I need allow me to survive without a public library, but any writer starting out really needs them.

    Admittedly I am an odd duck.  My idea of a night on the town when on business travel is to check out the local history room at the public library of the town I am in. (Actually got some ideas for books that way.) Yet I believe public libraries remain valuable in the 21st century.

    I do agree with John Hanson that funding for public libraries should be from state – and preferably local – sources. Nationalization of public libraries will lead to the same ills as nationalization of police would cause.

    Seawriter

    • #9
  10. ParisParamus Inactive
    ParisParamus
    @ParisParamus

    I love libraries, but their raison d’être is being hollowed-out by the Internet in a significant way.  Very sad and troubling.

    • #10
  11. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    I like libraries a lot (as many of us here seem to), but I feel that their primary mission is being over shadowed by technology. What I think we should do isn’t abolish them, but rather take that funding and create a virtual library with complete books and access to for everyone.

    What bothers me most about modern libraries is that people use them mostly for entertainment and reading new releases, when they should be a resource for obtaining hard to find and out of print books/editions. Like I said I think modern technology is allowing us to fulfill this core function of providing access to information without the need for physical buildings and borrowing strategies.

    • #11
  12. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Valiuth:

    What bothers me most about modern libraries is that people use them mostly for entertainment and reading new releases, when they should be a resource for obtaining hard to find and out of print books/editions.

    Isn’t that like criticizing the Internet because most people use it for entertainment and viewing YouTube cat videos? I use libraries for research, but I also get perhaps 20-30 new releases or novels for every book I obtain for research purpose. I would bet my Internet use mirrors that percentage.

    Even back in the 1800s most folks used the public library for entertainment and new releases. Let’s leave criticizing folks for Not Doing The Proper Thing (loud sniff) with resources to the Progressives.

    Seawriter

    • #12
  13. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @SoDakBoy

    The intended purpose of the library is a great one.  If you limit the consideration to the fulfillment of that purpose, I see no problem.  The problem is that a lot of public resources now flow to purposes that don’t support the intended mission.  In fact, I think they undermine the intended mission.  Comic books, DVDs of sit-coms, etc do nothing to improve the culture or the minds of the citizens.  As such, they should not be subsidized by the public.

    • #13
  14. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Seawriter:Nationalization of public libraries will lead to the same ills as nationalization of police would cause.

    Seawriter

    You mean “same ills as nationalization of police has caused,” don’t you?

    • #14
  15. Casey Inactive
    Casey
    @Casey

    Barfly:Yes, we should build and support libraries. A library is a secular holy place. It should be the first thing any community establishes once its basic needs for security and infrastructure are met.

    I agree. Libraries should be beautiful and inviting places.  It’s hard to measure the value of a library strictly on usage.  A library is more along the lines of a beautiful public park.  Or an extraordinary town hall.

    The park space could be employed for economic benefit and town business could be run out of a basement but what a dull and dreary community that would be.

    • #15
  16. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    From what I can tell from discussions with people in other parts of the country, Hank, you and I live in a location with a fantastic public library (and greater library system). I’m never sure how much that colors my views.

    Our family hits the library at least once a week — often more frequently. We’re constantly ordering things on interlibrary loan. There’s always a pile of library books, DVDs, CDs, even Wii games in our “incoming/outgoing” shelf in the kitchen.

    I would surely miss this resource.

    I definitely use the library differently today than I did perhaps 20 years ago, but that’s because media has changed so much. You’re right that the internet makes research easier, but acquisition of media is not as easy. Library systems are experimenting with short-term downloadable e-books, but I’ve never been able to get those things to work properly. Though I do find it fascinating that they “expire.” How’s that work?!

    Seems like nothing replaces “dead tree media” in the end.

    • #16
  17. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Libraries, in and of themselves, as they were envisioned by folk like Andrew Carnegie, are a good and something I’m willing, in theory, to support with my tax dollars.

    However…

    Libraries are run by governments, government employees, activists, and unions. In the 21st Century, these groups aren’t interested in running libraries the way Andrew Carnegie envisioned them.

    Instead, they want to appropriate large sums from taxpayers to create luxury “multi-function community facilities” where the goal of creating a place for independent citizens to educate themselves is thrown out in favour of entertainment and political indoctrination.

    In my town, the library committee has been lobbying for years for a new, high-tech super-library downtown. Odd, considering that the population of the downtown has been dropping for years while the population in the suburbs has been increasing.

    Wouldn’t it be a better use of funds to built a decentralized system of mini-libraries to serve the actual citizens of the city, rather than building a massive temple to government benevolence?

    Libraries are good. Library bureaucracies, not so much.

    As with so many services provided by government, taxpayers tend not to mind paying for them when they can see that the money is being well-spend.

    It rarely is.

    • #17
  18. Casey Inactive
    Casey
    @Casey

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Seems like nothing replaces “dead tree media” in the end.

    E-books are great in the very literal sense of reading.  I love that I can go to the library website and check out an e-book.  But there is no experience in that.

    There’s nothing like going to the library and just walking the stacks and pulling books off the stacks just because they look old or fancy.  Then discovering something wonderful.  And conversing with the penciled margin comments of a man long since dead.

    And go with kids?  Oh, that’s magical.

    • #18
  19. Mark Belling Fan Inactive
    Mark Belling Fan
    @MBF

    A lot of comments seem to be of the form, “I like libraries and use them a lot, therefore..”

    A whole heckuva a lot of people that haven’t been inside a library since high school are subsidizing the minority of the population that frequently utilizes the library. If it is such a valuable resource and every community desperately needs one, then it should be easy to operate one through donations, fund raising, and user fees.

    • #19
  20. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    billy:If it weren’t for public libraries, the homeless would have no place to masturbate while watching internet porn.

    I was about to make this exact comment.

    • #20
  21. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Anything that can be handled by private funding and management should be.

    Libraries began by private efforts, so they could operate without government again. The same goes for museums.

    If a local community prefers to use government for that purpose, fine… so long as it doesn’t regulate private libraries to force uniformity or to stymie competition.

    It would be helpful to translate more books into ebooks. Another worthwhile project is to digitize microfiche (old newspapers and periodicals).

    • #21
  22. Quinn the Eskimo Member
    Quinn the Eskimo
    @

    Twenty years ago, I would have been more sympathetic to the argument.  At best, I would have mixed feelings about it, as I tend to see all “public” involvement in intellectual life potentially corrupting.  (See the public school system, for example.)

    But in some ways, public libraries are like public television.  Just as the proliferation of cable channels make publicly subsidized television unnecessary, the wide availability of media online makes public libraries less necessary.

    Private technology now provides more access to more information than any reasonably available public library could provide.

    • #22
  23. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Quinn the Eskimo:

    But in some ways, public libraries are like public television. Just as the proliferation of cable channels make publicly subsidized television unnecessary, the wide availability of media online makes public libraries less necessary.

    I agree, which is precisely why the insidious forces that promote the worst parts of public television and public libraries must be fought at all times.

    “Public” does not have to mean “government”. This is something that should be repeated, over and over again.

    Ask yourself: Does “the public” truly run the library where you live?

    • #23
  24. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    I am 100% opposed to publicly funded libraries.  If you want to have a library, that’s fine, just don’t force me to pay for it.

    If a library couldn’t support itself through private subscriptions, then its not serving enough people to justify its existence.

    And frankly, governments exist to protect people’s rights, not to provide whatever services people think might be a good idea.

    • #24
  25. Nick Stuart Inactive
    Nick Stuart
    @NickStuart

    When I ask for help at my library I get responses like: “That’s on our website” “You can look that up on the Internet” and “The person who does that isn’t here”

    I can access online Wall Street Journal if I want to woek through 8 screens and 3 logins.

    Not so sure it’s really the asset it used to be.

    • #25
  26. user_989419 Inactive
    user_989419
    @ProbableCause

    Fred Cole:I am 100% opposed to publicly funded libraries. If you want to have a library, that’s fine, just don’t force me to pay for it.

    Good grief.  I agree with Fred Cole.

    The purpose of libraries today seems to be the driving of Borders, Blockbuster, and your-favorite-used-book-store out of business.  (Not that Amazon and Netflix didn’t have something to do with it.)

    Speaking of used book stores — they are basically private libraries.  You buy a book.  You read it.  You sell it back to them.  All without unionized government workers.

    • #26
  27. captainpower Inactive
    captainpower
    @captainpower

    Probable Cause:Speaking of used book stores — they are basically private libraries. You buy a book. You read it. You sell it back to them. All without unionized government workers.

    Amazon is my used book store. Sometimes they will accept a “trade in” of something previously purchased from them. Sometimes they won’t so you would have to set up a seller account to sell the book.

    This is one reason I have 1,000+ books on my wishlist and have been ordering way more ebooks than physical books lately. Who wants to deal with inventory management?

    • #27
  28. Ross C Inactive
    Ross C
    @RossC

    It is with some sadness that I vote against libraries.

    My sense is that in the least far fewer physical libraries are needed than there are now.  That is not to say that the public libraries near my house don’t get used.  They do, but I strongly suspect that something digital with fewer employees that services more customers would be a better way to go.

    • #28
  29. captainpower Inactive
    captainpower
    @captainpower

    Seawriter:Even back in the 1800s most folks used the public library for entertainment and new releases. Let’s leave criticizing folks for Not Doing The Proper Thing (loud sniff) with resources to the Progressives.

    Seawriter

    Can  you provide a bit more background on historical usage of libraries in America?

    I am sympathetic to the idea of allowing people the liberty to do as they please and not prescribe how they should live their lives. On the other hand, if I am forced to pay for it don’t I get a say?

    In my mind, libraries are about READING and literacy. So they should have plenty of books or digital books. I’m ambivalent about last year’s blockbuster movies and billboard hits (and someone else in the thread mentioned video games!?).

    • #29
  30. user_1030767 Inactive
    user_1030767
    @TheQuestion

    Has anyone ever tried opening a privately owned library where members’ paid a membership fee, as opposed to paying in taxes?  That’s kind of how Netflix works.

    That said, I think literacy and learning are public goods, so there’s a justification for public libraries.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that a public library is the best way to promote literacy and learning, just as public schools do not seem to be good for education.

    • #30
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