I Have A Dream

 

And it shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established at the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all of the nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come. And let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. And he will teach us of his ways, and we shall walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of God from Jerusalem — Isaiah 2:2:3

Something shifted in me this past October, after learning about the assassination-attempt on Rabbi Yehuda Glick. The Temple Mount — where Jewish access is restricted — had represented an ache in my heart, but stayed there, as elusive as a dream. Every time I visited the The Western Wall, I would feel sadness and loss, knowing that I was so close, yet so far away, but somehow I had accepted the status quo and settled for this state of silent complacency.

Then someone drove up on a motorcycle and tried cutting down a man who had kept the dream alive for all of us, and I knew in my heart that this could not stand.

A few months later, I went to the Limmud conference in England to give lectures and to learn. Between planning my own sessions and giving them, I went to listen to a British orthodox Rabbi talk about Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount. I knew it was a liberal crowd, and perhaps I should have stayed away. I didn’t, however, and — 45 minutes later — I found my stomach turning.

In the middle of the lecture, the Rabbi showed a short clip of Rabbi Glick speaking about our right to pray on the Temple Mount, and why there should be consequences for the denial of this right. The audience murmured, and — as the video faded to black — the Rabbi asked:

“What is it he is really saying? “

In my opinion, Yehuda Glick is to the Jewish world what Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. was to the Civil Rights movement. Mr Glick is putting the Temple Mount in the context where it belongs: as an issue of human rights, making the injustice of it all so blatantly clear. Much like King in his day, Glick is being criticized for challenging what is now the status quo and putting the issue on the top of the agenda; as with King, the critiques against him come from the police, politicians, and religious leaders.

As I sat there in London, I heard a predominantly Jewish audience call Glick a troublemaker and the inciter of a 3rd Intifada, I felt like I was losing my footing. I was heartbroken, but I couldn’t really pinpoint why.

I ended up arguing with the Rabbi after the session, louder and more angrily than I had ever expected. I felt betrayal, disappointment, and rage. Within me the decision formed, slowly: I have to ascend the mountain. I have to find out for myself.

As the days drew closer, I felt the trepidation, swinging like a pendulum inside of me. I had read about the violence, the riots, and the threats and I feared that I would not be able to reach the places I wanted to inhabit. Not merely physically, but more importantly, spiritually.

I met my guide by the Kotel plaza early one Sunday morning, and — within minutes — we were there, at the place I had painted pictures of in my mind. I’m not sure what I had expected, but I know that was not what I saw. Yes, there were the expected criers, yelling “Allahu Akbar!” as we passed. There were strangers and neighbors, friends and foes, but none of it mattered because I had arrived and I stood in the sun wondering why I had not always been there.

I asked my guide why he kept coming and he told me it was in order to keep the dream alive. I knew what he meant, immediately, and as we walked up the steps I also knew what had broken my heart in that session in London weeks earlier.

The voices I heard in that room had given up on the dream. The Rabbi, the audience, all the people calling to indict the man whose blood was spilled for holding on to a dream we cried out for over centuries; they had resigned to living in yesterday, whereas my soul cried out for tomorrow.

They say that the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. What I felt before I went up on Har Habayit, the fear that dwelled in me, it was the dream being silenced by the criers on the mountain. That is terror, at its core, to make fear so prevalent that we end up thinking that we chose to stay away.

I did not know until I got there how right it was to go. But I know now, and I will keep returning, until the dream becomes reality, speedily and in our days.

We’ve got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn’t matter with me now. Because I’ve been to the mountaintop. And I don’t mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I’m not concerned about that now. I just want to do God’s will. And He’s allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I’ve looked over. And I’ve seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. — Martin Luther King, Jr.

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  1. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    skipsul:Zafar, can I pose an odd question to you on this? Not sure how to phrase this, and this is of course entirely theoretical, but given that Israel has now existed de facto for almost 70 years, how could Israel possibly deal with the situation posed above?

    Oh Skipsul, if I knew that I’d be rich, rich, rich and there would be (hopefully) peace in the Middle East. In short: it’s probably really hard, and involves giving up some things that they don’t want to. (Ditto the Palestinians.)  My feeling is they know this and are holding out for circumstances to change so they can get a better deal.

    But a good first step: acknowledge the reality of what happened.  Even on a smart site like Ricochet I still read all this stuff about there being no Nakba, or ignoring the relevance of so much of Israel’s post-1948 population coming from Europe when it was Palestine that was being divided, or an insistence that the conflict is driven by anti-Semitism rather than by the Palestinian refugee issue, or the argument that somehow the fact that Palestinians never before comprised an independent polity means that they have less of an individual right to property.  It seems like wishful thinking masquerading as thought, and I think it’s a tremendous force for ill in the world, no matter how well intentioned.  The Golden Calf is not the Ten Commandments, no matter how shiny and appealing.

    The Palestinians are the only exile/refugee group in the world who are still afforded, at least per the UN, any right of return not just for themselves but their descendants too.

    No, I don’t think so. 

    The most obvious example: the Law of Return.  Isn’t the right to use it conditional on descent?

    I’d also be extremely surprised if the descendants of German Jewish refugees were unable to claim an EU passport.  Am I wrong?

    • #121
  2. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Calvin Coolidg:

    And Israel only denies citizenship to people who are a threat to the State. They aren’t throwing out citizens whom are Arabs. That’s nonsense.

    It’s reasonable, then, to ask why a State is threatened by an indigenous ethnic group – and if it is, then why is the existence of that State more important than the rights of the individuals in that group.

    I have to say , it’s pretty impressive how you can hold down as many different conversations as you do. (Not that I agree with you on any of them). Never the less, impressive.

    Thank you.  It’s a gift?

    • #122
  3. user_82762 Inactive
    user_82762
    @JamesGawron

    Zafar:

    James Gawron:

    It seems self evident that if Islam or a majority of responsible Muslim governments were to recognize the state of Israel the conflict would be resolved very quickly. Until such time as the acceptance of the existence of the Jewish state is a common place there is likely to be no solution.

    From Jewish Voice for Peace:

    The much-awaited moment has come and the League of Arab States has reissued the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan with no changes or amendments. It is important to understand what this initiative says and the great potential it has for putting the region on a course toward a sustainable peace. It is also important to understand what it is not — a take it or leave it offer with no room for negotiations.

    In fact, it’s exactly what Israel has needed for decades–a firm opening offer and invitation to negotiations from the entire Arab world. It’s not only peace with the Palestinians. It’s peace with the entire Arab world that is being offered. And not just peace, but normal relations. This is offered in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from all territories it captured in 1967, the establishment of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital and an “agreed upon” resolution to the refugee issue, based on UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

    So this has been hanging around, waiting for discussion, for more than a decade. Seems pretty close to an offer of recognition to me. What gives?

    First, the pre-1967 borders have nothing to do with the recognition of the existence of the State of Israel. If this was offered in 2002 at the height of a subversive intifada it shows little good faith. Israel expanded to the post 1967 borders because of repeated aggression from its neighbors. The post 1967 borders are far more defensible and given a completely intransigent enemy there was no other alternative. Assembly Resolution 194 is an absurdity. The Muslims designated as Palestinian were not forcibly expelled by Israel. They left willingly on the assumption in 1948 that once the Jews were destroyed they would come back. This assumption had plenty of merit at the time as the Jews had never had any military force, had few weapons, and no world governments willing to help. Israel was surrounded by hostile Muslim governments with trained and well equipped armies. Her survival in 1948 was very much in doubt. Everyone including the British expected the Jews to be slaughtered. They disappointed the many observers and survived. Meanwhile a much larger number of Jews were forced from Muslim lands. Israel absorbed these true refugees. Jordan, Syria, and Egypt did not choose to absorb the Muslims who had chosen to move from Israel awaiting the ethnic cleansing of the Jews. The idea that some 67 years later Israel must accept guilt for Muslims hating Jews so much that they would not live with them is hopeless.

    The point is simple. The League of Arab States should recognize the State of Israel without any preconditions. I’m sure that Israel could then find ways of ameliorating the suffering of these Muslims who for 67 years have been used as pawns to foment a religious war between Muslim and Jew. Israel is a surprisingly generous country and would undoubtedly make the effort. It is very hard to be generous with someone who is not only holding a gun on you but firing it.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #123
  4. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    Zafar:

    But a good first step: acknowledge the reality of what happened.  Even on a smart site like Ricochet I still read all this stuff about there being no Nakba, or ignoring the relevance of so much of Israel’s post-1948 population coming from Europe when it was Palestine that was being divided, or an insistence that the conflict is driven by anti-Semitism rather than by the Palestinian refugee issue, or the argument that somehow the fact that Palestinians never before comprised an independent polity means that they have less of an individual right to property.  It seems like wishful thinking masquerading as thought, and I think it’s a tremendous force for ill in the world, no matter how well intentioned.  The Golden Calf is not the Ten Commandments, no matter how shiny and appealing.

    Were the Palestinians the only ones dislocated after the war? (Here’s the slight of hand folks.) This argument is bunk. The territories throughout the Middle East were under French, British and Russian protection for a few different reasons. One was the battle for control of the region and its resources and the other was paranoia. What Zafar fails to tell you is that British, French and Russian control were welcomed because of internal interests and the ongoing power struggle among the Arabs themselves.

    The Palestinians were displaced Trans-Jordanians. Part of the reason they lost their land wasn’t because of the establishment of Israel, but because of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Syria and the land that was given to them. Much of this had to do with WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The destabilization of the region started there.

    (As an aside, conquering regimes assumed land and expelled entire populations of indigenous people from many regions going back to biblical times. This isn’t new. It’s just the flavor of the month for propagandists and Jew haters)

    Israel was re-established because the World realized that history placed Jews there naturally and the Holocaust had shaken the very fabric of humanity.

    The refugees were the result of other Arab countries refusing to resettle them, and Israel didn’t “kick them all out”. That’s B.S. Zafar.

    • #124
  5. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    Zafar:It’s reasonable, then, to ask why a State is threatened by an indigenous ethnic group – and if it is, then why is the existence of that State more important than the rights of the individuals in that group.

    That’s a loaded question professor. The role of any state is survival. Especially if you’re a Jew. People indigenous to Israel still reside there.

    Did you know that Israel has a bigger problem with refugees from Africa than they do from their bordering neighbors? Why is that? Answer: Because they were the only ones kind enough to let them in. I believe, one year, Miss Israel was a refugee from Ethiopia. I can’t remember the last time Miss Palestine was an Ethiopian, can you?

    • #125
  6. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    James Gawron:

    This assumption had plenty of merit at the time as the Jews had never had any military force, had few weapons, and no world governments willing to help. Israel was surrounded by hostile Muslim governments with trained and well equipped armies. Her survival in 1948 was very much in doubt. Everyone including the British expected the Jews to be slaughtered.

    That’s not true James. The Brits, the French, the U.S. and other countries aided Israel in beating back the enemies attacking from all sides. They were never alone in the fight. That is part of the reason they have survived as long as they have.

    Today they are more than capable of defending themselves, but they had help along the way.

    • #126
  7. user_82762 Inactive
    user_82762
    @JamesGawron

    Calvin Coolidg:

    James Gawron:

    This assumption had plenty of merit at the time as the Jews had never had any military force, had few weapons, and no world governments willing to help. Israel was surrounded by hostile Muslim governments with trained and well equipped armies. Her survival in 1948 was very much in doubt. Everyone including the British expected the Jews to be slaughtered.

    That’s not true James. The Brits, the French, the U.S. and other countries aided Israel in beating back the enemies attacking from all sides. They were never alone in the fight. That is part of the reason they have survived as long as they have.

    Now they are more than capable of defending themselves, but they had help along the way.

    Calvin,

    If you say so. However, 1948 was much more of a miracle than even the Israelis would prefer to think. At one point they were very much hanging by a thread. Only small arms and little ammunition. I prefer to think that Gd had a hand in it.

    Of course, they had outside help along the way. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. When the chips are down you discover who your real friends are.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #127
  8. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    James Gawron:

    Calvin Coolidg:

    James Gawron:

    This assumption had plenty of merit at the time as the Jews had never had any military force, had few weapons, and no world governments willing to help. Israel was surrounded by hostile Muslim governments with trained and well equipped armies. Her survival in 1948 was very much in doubt. Everyone including the British expected the Jews to be slaughtered.

    That’s not true James. The Brits, the French, the U.S. and other countries aided Israel in beating back the enemies attacking from all sides. They were never alone in the fight. That is part of the reason they have survived as long as they have.

    Now they are more than capable of defending themselves, but they had help along the way.

    Calvin,

    If you say so. However, 1948 was much more of a miracle than even the Israelis would prefer to think. At one point they were very much hanging by a thread. Only small arms and little ammunition. I prefer to think that Gd had a hand in it.

    Of course, they had outside help along the way. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. When the chips are down you discover who your real friends are.

    Regards,

    Jim

    I agree. And God had a big hand in it.

    • #128
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    James Gawron:

    The Muslims designated as Palestinian were not forcibly expelled by Israel. They left willingly on the assumption in 1948 that once the Jews were destroyed they would come back.

    I’m sorry Jim.  There’s no proof at all of your assertion, and plenty of proof that people were forcibly expelled.  I understand that this is a subject in which people invest a lot of emotion – and therefore belief – but in the end when we disagree we need to look at facts, as far as possible, not just assertions.

    Also – You know, right, that more than 10% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian, and that many many Palestinian Christians were also expelled in 1948?

    • #129
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Calvin Coolidg:The refugees were the result of other Arab countries refusing to resettle them.

    Cart, horse.

    • #130
  11. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    Zafar:

    Calvin Coolidg:The refugees were the result of other Arab countries refusing to resettle them.

    Cart, horse.

    Fact, fiction.

    • #131
  12. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    Zafar:

    James Gawron:

    The Muslims designated as Palestinian were not forcibly expelled by Israel. They left willingly on the assumption in 1948 that once the Jews were destroyed they would come back.

    I’m sorry Jim. There’s no proof at all of your assertion, and plenty of proof that people were forcibly expelled. I understand that this is a subject in which people invest a lot of emotion – and therefore belief – but in the end when we disagree we need to look at facts, as far as possible, not just assertions.

    Also – You know, right, that more than 10% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian, and that many many Palestinian Christians were also expelled in 1948?

    How many Jews were expelled before them?

    • #132
  13. user_82762 Inactive
    user_82762
    @JamesGawron

    Zafar:

    James Gawron:

    The Muslims designated as Palestinian were not forcibly expelled by Israel. They left willingly on the assumption in 1948 that once the Jews were destroyed they would come back.

    I’m sorry Jim. There’s no proof at all of your assertion, and plenty of proof that people were forcibly expelled. I understand that this is a subject in which people invest a lot of emotion – and therefore belief – but in the end when we disagree we need to look at facts, as far as possible, not just assertions.

    Also – You know, right, that more than 10% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian, and that many many Palestinian Christians were also expelled in 1948?

    Zafar,

    From the Declaration of the Establishment of State of Israel

    WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

    A greater statement of good faith there could not be.

    From the Palestinian National Charter of 1964

    Article 6: The Palestinians are those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled. Every child who was born to a Palestinian Arab father after this date, whether in Palestine or outside, is a Palestinian.

    Odd, if so many remained how was it that the others were selectively expelled? There is absolutely no evidence of an Israeli governmental decree, order, or statement which required them to leave.

    Of course, since the Charter is written in 1964 before the 1967 War it demonstrates the absurdity of the pre-1967 border meme. Those borders are irrelevant to what the Charter wants, the complete elimination of the Jewish State.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #133
  14. user_385039 Inactive
    user_385039
    @donaldtodd

    Zafar re 129

    James Gawron:

    The Muslims designated as Palestinian were not forcibly expelled by Israel. They left willingly on the assumption in 1948 that once the Jews were destroyed they would come back.

    “I’m sorry Jim.  There’s no proof at all of your assertion, and plenty of proof that people were forcibly expelled.  I understand that this is a subject in which people invest a lot of emotion – and therefore belief – but in the end when we disagree we need to look at facts, as far as possible, not just assertions.”

    Actually a lot of the people of that area left because they knew that the fight was coming, and they did not want to be trampled in the battles.  I believe but cannot cite the sources that they believed, that they would re-occupy their property when they returned.

    The expected Arab or Moslem victory did not occur and these people became homeless; and the people who gave them the impression that they could return weren’t there to welcome them back.

    Everything I have read backs what JG wrote.  I suspect that anything else is probably anti-Israeli propaganda.  Being an American of Irish-English descent I don’t have a horse in this race and genuinely wanted to know what was true.

    I’ve heard a lot of b.s. from the professional anti-Israeli lobby.   Justifying firing rockets from hospitals and schools, hiding behind everyone else, and then blaming the Jews for defending themselves – if in fact the dead were caused by the Israelis.  (I have seen enough Moslem on Moslem hatred to discount the idea that they would never kill their own.)

    What more, I do know that if I went to Saudi Arabia I could not go to Mass.  If I went to Israel they’d keep the lights on for me and guarantee that I could walk right in the door of the Church of which I am a son.

    Guess who I trust the most?

    • #134
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Calvin Coolidg:

    Zafar:

    Also – You know, right, that more than 10% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian, and that many many Palestinian Christians were also expelled in 1948?

    How many Jews were expelled before them?

    By the Palestinians?  Not many, certainly nothing like 700,000.

    • #135
  16. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    James Gawron:

    From the Declaration of the Establishment of State of Israel

    A greater statement of good faith there could not be.

    Yes Jim, it’s lovely.  But it doesn’t explain why 700,000 Arabs were kept from returning to their homes after the cease fire.  Whether they were driven away (as many claim, and as many Israeli fighters from the war of independence now admit in interviews – this is what I mean by proof rather than assertion), why were they kept out unless Israel wanted the land but not the people who already lived on it?

    Odd, if so many remained how was it that the others were selectively expelled? There is absolutely no evidence of an Israeli governmental decree, order, or statement which required them to leave.

    Indeed, that’s true. 

    So why were the majority expelled and then stopped from coming home? 

    Actions speak louder than words.

    • #136
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    donald todd:Actually a lot of the people of that area left because they knew that the fight was coming, and they did not want to be trampled in the battles. I believe but cannot cite the sources that they believed, that they would re-occupy their property when they returned.

    Nobody can cite the sources, because although much referred to they seem pretty thin on the ground.  One sees them selectively referred to in books, which cite other books, which cite other books – collectively building up a consensus about what happened –  but there’s little actual proof of this at all and quite a lot for the expulsion.  It is, at the very least, a mixed record.

    Everything I have read backs what JG wrote.  I suspect that anything else is probably anti-Israeli propaganda.

    There’s certainly a lot of propaganda surrounding the subject, I’ll grant you that.  I make a real effort to cite Jewish Israeli sources (like Zochrot), of which there are many, to support my points.  I think it’s hard to dismiss them all as anti-Israeli anti-Semites.

    I sometimes feel that what makes these discussions emotional is an assumed subtext –  what we think an argument is saying about people.  Questioning Israel’s absolute “right to exist” – no matter what the cost and who pays it – seems to be taken as questioning Jewish people’s right to exist.  It’s not the same thing at all, of course – look at all the Jewish people who criticise Israel’s founding and current polity – but sometimes I think that’s how it’s heard and how it’s responded to.

    Similarly I know that when I hear or read people basically dismissing Palestinian refugees, and refusing to acknowledge that Israel had any responsibility for creating them, it sometimes seems as if their worth as human being is being dismissed because they’re Arabs, or Muslims (or both).  That may not be what people are saying, but sometimes that’s how it comes across.

    Looking at the specifics of this article – Annika had what sounds like a terrible time in Sweden, and as far as it goes I’m genuinely glad that she is in a place (I guess Israel?) where she feels safe and happy.  I don’t wish anybody to suffer, least of all for being different from the majority.  For a number of reasons I get how that feels.

    But I know that there are Palestinian women, the same age as Annika, who also have children like Annika, who are stuck and unsafe in refugee camps in Lebanon. I don’t see them as having less intrinsic worth as people, or fewer rights as individuals, so I have to ask why it’s right for them to pay the price  (expulsion) for her safety (a Jewish majority Israel).  Is that  just?

    • #137
  18. user_385039 Inactive
    user_385039
    @donaldtodd

    Zafar: #137 “But I know that there are Palestinian women, the same age as Annika, who also have children like Annika, who are stuck and unsafe in refugee camps in Lebanon. I don’t see them as having less intrinsic worth as people, or fewer rights as individuals, so I have to ask why it’s right for them to pay the price  (expulsion) for her safety (a Jewish majority Israel).  Is that  just?”

    If I leave my home in anticipation of a battle that I don’t want to be involved in, and my side loses and the border shifts accordingly, should I be surprised that my home is no longer my home?

    To the best of my understanding everyone who stayed home still had their homes when the 1948 war was over.  They were not refugees.  The refugees were those people who voluntarily left.

    Is a human being of one race or ethnicity worth less than the human being of another race or ethnicity?  No.  Both are made in the image and likeness of God (no matter what they think) and both are deserving of their human dignity for exactly that reason.

    After the 1948 war, Israel as a nation had to protect their own which is the reason for Israel’s existence.  Did Israel have an investment in non-Jews who had vacated their homes?  Nope.  Did Israel owe people whose investment and belief was in the other side, the losing side?  Nope.

    We are having a problem here which is similar.  The Nation of Mexico, in an attempt to mitigate its financial duties to its citizens, finds ways to get them out of Mexico and into the US, where it is hoped that they will find jobs, earn money, and perhaps send some of it back to Mexico.  Whether or not money flows back into Mexico, Mexico is relieved the of the burden of caring for its own.

    Jordan, Egypt and other Arab nations have created a problem with refugees that they don’t want.  They are attempting to foist them off on Israel, a country they loathe.  Israel is the scapegoat for the failure of the Arab/Moslem nations in that area.

    The refugees are not an Israeli problem.  That is wishful thinking on the part of some.

    • #138
  19. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    donald todd:To the best of my understanding everyone who stayed home still had their homes when the 1948 war was over. They were not refugees. The refugees were those people who voluntarily left.

    I know you keep saying that people only left because they wanted to avoid war and this means that they permanently forfeited their property rights, but:

    1. A lot of those poor peasants didn’t just up and leave because they felt like it, they were chased out at the point of a gun.  There is a lot of evidence supporting that – it’s honest, I think, to take that into account when you make your argument.
    2. Did it really mean that they forfeited their property rights?  According to the parts of the Geneva Conventions of War (ratified by Israel) that deal with the rights of civilians in war zones, it does not mean that.  Certainly the Palestinians and most of the rest of the world don’t believe that it does.
    3. Lastly, I know that there’s all this thing about Israel surviving an invasion by all the surrounding Arab States.  The fact is all the Arab States declared war, I don’t this that meant that all of them invaded Israel.  The indigenous resistance to colonisation had been shut down by the British between 1936 and 1939.  Those peasants had been deliberately made defenseless.

    I know this may not change your thinking. I appreciate that for many believing Christians the perception that Israel is a fulfilment of Biblical prophecy makes it hard to acknowledge any wrongs or injustices in how it was founded – I don’t know if either of these things is true for you.  But fwiw, these are my thoughts.

    • #139
  20. user_385039 Inactive
    user_385039
    @donaldtodd

    Zafar: #139 “I know this may not change your thinking. I appreciate that for many believing Christians the perception that Israel is a fulfilment of Biblical prophecy makes it hard to acknowledge any wrongs or injustices in how it was founded – I don’t know if either of these things is true for you.  But fwiw, these are my thoughts.”

    If you are asking if Jesus will return to Israel, to the Vatican, or to Salt Lake City, my best guess would be Israel.  However whenever He does what He is going to do, He won’t require my assistance; and wherever He decides to arrive at will be His decision as well.  He will also do it in His own timeframe, a fact which has escaped a great many of my co-religionists who are hot for the second coming.

    He managed not to return in 1843 (re William Miller), or 1844 (a disciple of William Miller), or in 1988 (40 years after the birth of Israel and the thesis of Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth) or on any number of other dates which were bandied about as being “the day.”

    When He comes, He will bring judgment.  To be sure, we’ll all be held responsible for our decisions and actions, good and bad, and we’ll be measured as individuals, and as nations.

    Of one thing I am certain, you are keen to have the rights of Palestinians upheld.  I am certain that if they were abused of their rights as individuals (because they are not a people), justice will be served, no matter who is responsible for that abuse.

    • #140
  21. Ricochet Inactive
    Ricochet
    @CalvinCoolidg

    Zafar:

    Calvin Coolidg:

    Zafar:

    Also – You know, right, that more than 10% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian, and that many many Palestinian Christians were also expelled in 1948?

    How many Jews were expelled before them?

    By the Palestinians? Not many, certainly nothing like 700,000.

    This may shed some clarity on the discussion……..

    The Palestinian refugee problem originated as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, when five Arab armies invaded the State of Israel just hours after it was established. During the ensuing war as many as 700,000 Palestinians fled their homes in the newly created state. Many of the Palestinians who fled did so voluntarily to avoid the ongoing war or at the urging of Arab leaders who promised that all who left would return after a quick Arab victory over the new Jewish state. Other Palestinians were forced to flee by individuals or groups fighting for Israel……………….http://www.adl.org/israel-international/israel-middle-east/content/AG/palestinian-refugees.html

    I found it, along with evidence that the Temple Mount is the original place of worship for the Jews and that the Arabs destroyed the 2nd temple and have since been attempting to destroy all artifacts found in the area to conceal the facts.

    What was Nasser’s, or Haj Amin al-Husseini’s role in all of this? You talk about the great “Catastrophe” (Nakba). Should we discuss “Taqiyaa”?

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