Contributor Post Created with Sketch. Supreme Court Takes Up Same-sex Marriage

 

Today, the Supreme Court granted a writ of certiorari to hear a case on the constitutionality of state bans on gay marriage. I thought, and continue to think, that the Supreme Court erred in Windsor two years ago in striking down the Defense of Marriage Act. The decision did not directly overrule the many states that had barred gay marriage, but the reasoning made it clear what a majority of the Justices think: discrimination against gays violates the Constitution.

Nevertheless, I thought it would be best for the Justices to allow the issue of a constitutional right of gays to marry to proceed through the states and the lower courts over time. As someone who supports gay marriage, I believe that the political process is the most appropriate means under our Constitution for the American people to reach a decision on gay rights.

Still, I am not surprised that the Justices agreed to take up a case directly on the issue. There is a “circuit split” on the issue — while several lower federal courts have struck down state bans on gay marriage, one court has upheld them. Perhaps the most important function of the Supreme Court is to ensure uniformity in federal law throughout the nation. Once a sharp conflict arose between the lower federal courts over gay marriage, the Supreme Court had to step in.

I don’t think I am going out very far on a limb to predict that the Justices — by a 5-4 vote — will decide that state bans on gay marriage violate the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

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  1. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVeyJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.

    • #241
    • January 23, 2015, at 12:34 PM PST
    • Like
  2. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    You have a wonderful facility for changing the subject whenever you have no answer.

    Translation….I haven’t agreed with you, yet.

    Well then maybe you can explain to me what Islamic extremism and terrorism has to do with whether or not same sex marriage should be permitted? The connection is less than obvious and I suspect you and I have much more agreement about the former than we do about the latter.

    Would be obvious if you had listened to me from the start. You look at the issue based merely on how it affects your life. I am looking at the breakdown of civil society and each ill that contributes. Along with the dysfunction, I am concerned with the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government and the loss of freedom that is following.

    That still doesn’t draw anything like a line to explain how allowing homosexuals to marry leads to “the breakdown of civil society” or “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government” or “the loss of freedom” (and somewhere we lost the Islamic terrorists that we were talking about – another example of your unwillingness to stick to a subject). You don’t really have an argument. You haven’t made a single one on this thread. You just have a collection of fears and somehow (unexplained) gay marriage contributes to them. I still don’t see why this is my problem.

    It isn’t in your interest to see and understand the argument.

    Nor within my capacity to imagine it out of whole cloth.

    • #242
    • January 23, 2015, at 1:20 PM PST
    • Like
  3. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:reason we fear the slippery slope …. and doubt the honesty of the movement

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381148/state-dept-lgbt-speaker-we-dont-want-gay-marriage-we-want-no-marriage-ian-tuttle

    Oh, good, you found a loony leftist who said something stupid. There’s a surprise. And it’s certainly cause for denying tens of millions of Americans legal equality.

    and

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/313021/chick-fil-and-totalitarian-temptation-deroy-murdock

    As far as Dan Cathy goes, I think he’s a religious bigot, and I think in a free country, I’m entitled to say so. I think anybody who thinks it should be free to say so, including public officials. I would, however stop short of using the power of the state to interfere with his legitimate business activities on account of his beliefs, for the same reason I’d defend Dan Cathy’s right to say the things he says that I find offensive. Freedom means nothing if it doesn’t mean the freedom of Dan Cathy to offend me, and the freedom of me to offend Dan Cathy. To head you off at the pass though, let me add that if Dan Cathy worked for me in my private business, I might well fire him, and would certainly feel it my right to do so. I will defend him from state interference, but not from the negative reactions that non-state actors may have to his views.

    But the left is driving that issue and the lefty is representative of what the left, which holds many elements of power, has on its mind. Since we all have things that we accept and don’t accept, we are all seen as bigots by somebody. Cathey has the luxury of quantity in his circle of “bigots.” It is interesting that you would fire him for he does not fire people who disagree with him Rather, his chain is a good one to work for…and a good place to eat. No comment on Murdock links?

    The nutty “do away with marriage” meme is not representative of anything but an exotic fringe. You know how you can tell? Because you could only find one reference to it uttered by someone nobody’s ever heard of. Trying to tar me and the majority of Americans who favor same sex marriage rights with it is dishonest, or a cheap debate trick at best.

    And I’m not sure what Murdock links you mean. If you’ve posted some other link, I missed it.

    And not that it matters, but Chik-fil-a food is disgusting.

    • #243
    • January 23, 2015, at 1:29 PM PST
    • Like
  4. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374559/gay-genes-or-choice-deroy-murdock

    The reason we never agree is because we don’t state the issue as well as he does.

    The point of this eludes me. I have never stuck a stake in the ground and said homosexuality was genetic. We’ve already had this conversation on this thread and you have tried to press the illogical position that if we can’t identify the cause with certainty, it must be a choice. To repeat, I’ve said that the causes are uncertain but that it is involuntary. The opposite of “choice” is “no choice;” it is not “genetic.”

    Involuntary? How do you distinguish between involuntary behavior and lack of self-restraint?

    Being homosexual is not a “behavior.” Were you heterosexual when you were a virgin?

    Yep. Hung out with girls and guys. Dated guys.

    I didn’t ask who you hung out with. Pretty much everybody’s “hung out with” both girls and guys. There are an awful lot of both around. I have “hung out with” both all my life, and still do today.

    Your claim to have been heterosexual and dated guys though, is I suppose the bait I’m supposed to bite on, but it occurs to me it only looks like bait because for whatever reason I’ve assumed you’re male. As I don’t actually know that, I’ll ask, before trodding down that path.

    In the meantime though, I’ll note that you seem to have been able to identify your orientation as heterosexual — despite not engaging in a “behavior” (you say you were a virgin) because of it. I’ll ask why you think it’s any different for homosexuals and failing an answer, assume that we can put the “it’s just a behavior and a lack of self restraint” slur behind us.

    You asked. I answered. I am heterosexual but that isn’t what defines me. I am a female. It is the behavior and not the person that is in the Bible. But then I am a hetero whether of not I am celibate.

    Remind me again why I’m supposed to believe that your disdain for me isn’t based on your religious beliefs?

    • #244
    • January 23, 2015, at 1:33 PM PST
    • Like
  5. Cato Rand Inactive

    Gary McVey:

    Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.

    Gary, is this some reference to the mysteriously absent Jennifer?

    • #245
    • January 23, 2015, at 1:34 PM PST
    • Like
  6. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVeyJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    (laughs) No, just my usual indirect suggestion that the rhetorical level of the thread is proving to be impervious to improvement.

    • #246
    • January 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM PST
    • Like
  7. Cato Rand Inactive

    Gary McVey:(laughs) No, just my usual indirect suggestion that the rhetorical level of the thread is proving to be impervious to improvement.

    Oh, as usual, I haven’t seen the movie.

    • #247
    • January 23, 2015, at 2:09 PM PST
    • Like
  8. EHerring Coolidge

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374559/gay-genes-or-choice-deroy-murdock

    The reason we never agree is because we don’t state the issue as well as he does.

    The point of this eludes me. I have never stuck a stake in the ground and said homosexuality was genetic. We’ve already had this conversation on this thread and you have tried to press the illogical position that if we can’t identify the cause with certainty, it must be a choice. To repeat, I’ve said that the causes are uncertain but that it is involuntary. The opposite of “choice” is “no choice;” it is not “genetic.”

    Involuntary? How do you distinguish between involuntary behavior and lack of self-restraint?

    Being homosexual is not a “behavior.” Were you heterosexual when you were a virgin?

    Yep. Hung out with girls and guys. Dated guys.

    I didn’t ask who you hung out with. Pretty much everybody’s “hung out with” both girls and guys. There are an awful lot of both around. I have “hung out with” both all my life, and still do today.

    Your claim to have been heterosexual and dated guys though, is I suppose the bait I’m supposed to bite on, but it occurs to me it only looks like bait because for whatever reason I’ve assumed you’re male. As I don’t actually know that, I’ll ask, before trodding down that path.

    In the meantime though, I’ll note that you seem to have been able to identify your orientation as heterosexual — despite not engaging in a “behavior” (you say you were a virgin) because of it. I’ll ask why you think it’s any different for homosexuals and failing an answer, assume that we can put the “it’s just a behavior and a lack of self restraint” slur behind us.

    You asked. I answered. I am heterosexual but that isn’t what defines me. I am a female. It is the behavior and not the person that is in the Bible. But then I am a hetero whether of not I am celibate.

    Remind me again why I’m supposed to believe that your disdain for me isn’t based on your religious beliefs?

    Can’t. I do not hold you in disdain. You seem to wish to believe everyone who disagrees with SSM marriage does hold you in disdain. Why? to give you a green light to hold them in disdain, too? to label them bigots? without feeling guilty for doing so?

    • #248
    • January 23, 2015, at 4:11 PM PST
    • Like
  9. EHerring Coolidge

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:reason we fear the slippery slope …. and doubt the honesty of the movement

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381148/state-dept-lgbt-speaker-we-dont-want-gay-marriage-we-want-no-marriage-ian-tuttle

    Oh, good, you found a loony leftist who said something stupid. There’s a surprise. And it’s certainly cause for denying tens of millions of Americans legal equality.

    and

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/313021/chick-fil-and-totalitarian-temptation-deroy-murdock

    As far as Dan Cathy goes, I think he’s a religious bigot, and I think in a free country, I’m entitled to say so. I think anybody who thinks it should be free to say so, including public officials. I would, however stop short of using the power of the state to interfere with his legitimate business activities on account of his beliefs, for the same reason I’d defend Dan Cathy’s right to say the things he says that I find offensive. Freedom means nothing if it doesn’t mean the freedom of Dan Cathy to offend me, and the freedom of me to offend Dan Cathy. To head you off at the pass though, let me add that if Dan Cathy worked for me in my private business, I might well fire him, and would certainly feel it my right to do so. I will defend him from state interference, but not from the negative reactions that non-state actors may have to his views.

    But the left is driving that issue and the lefty is representative of what the left, which holds many elements of power, has on its mind. Since we all have things that we accept and don’t accept, we are all seen as bigots by somebody. Cathey has the luxury of quantity in his circle of “bigots.” It is interesting that you would fire him for he does not fire people who disagree with him Rather, his chain is a good one to work for…and a good place to eat. No comment on Murdock links?

    The nutty “do away with marriage” meme is not representative of anything but an exotic fringe. You know how you can tell? Because you could only find one reference to it uttered by someone nobody’s ever heard of. Trying to tar me and the majority of Americans who favor same sex marriage rights with it is dishonest, or a cheap debate trick at best.

    And I’m not sure what Murdock links you mean. If you’ve posted some other link, I missed it.

    And not that it matters, but Chik-fil-a food is disgusting.

    If the person were an anomaly, her comment would be condemned. It isn’t the only example. It may not be your goal, but it is the goal of the lefties who have seized the cause for their own means. Chik Fil A is good and gets high ratings. It is the one fast food that has cars wrapped around the drive through lane at all hours of the day.

    • #249
    • January 23, 2015, at 4:17 PM PST
    • Like
  10. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374559/gay-genes-or-choice-deroy-murdock

    The reason we never agree is because we don’t state the issue as well as he does.

    The point of this eludes me. I have never stuck a stake in the ground and said homosexuality was genetic. We’ve already had this conversation on this thread and you have tried to press the illogical position that if we can’t identify the cause with certainty, it must be a choice. To repeat, I’ve said that the causes are uncertain but that it is involuntary. The opposite of “choice” is “no choice;” it is not “genetic.”

    Involuntary? How do you distinguish between involuntary behavior and lack of self-restraint?

    Being homosexual is not a “behavior.” Were you heterosexual when you were a virgin?

    Yep. Hung out with girls and guys. Dated guys.

    I didn’t ask who you hung out with. Pretty much everybody’s “hung out with” both girls and guys. There are an awful lot of both around. I have “hung out with” both all my life, and still do today.

    Your claim to have been heterosexual and dated guys though, is I suppose the bait I’m supposed to bite on, but it occurs to me it only looks like bait because for whatever reason I’ve assumed you’re male. As I don’t actually know that, I’ll ask, before trodding down that path.

    In the meantime though, I’ll note that you seem to have been able to identify your orientation as heterosexual — despite not engaging in a “behavior” (you say you were a virgin) because of it. I’ll ask why you think it’s any different for homosexuals and failing an answer, assume that we can put the “it’s just a behavior and a lack of self restraint” slur behind us.

    You asked. I answered. I am heterosexual but that isn’t what defines me. I am a female. It is the behavior and not the person that is in the Bible. But then I am a hetero whether of not I am celibate.

    Remind me again why I’m supposed to believe that your disdain for me isn’t based on your religious beliefs?

    Can’t. I do not hold you in disdain. You seem to wish to believe everyone who disagrees with SSM marriage does hold you in disdain. Why? to give you a green light to hold them in disdain, too? to label them bigots? without feeling guilty for doing so?

    “Choice” “sin” “lack of self restraint” and the cause of “the breakdown of civil society” and “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government” the “the loss of freedom.” Unworthy of legal equality. That’s disdain, even if it’s uncomfortable for you to look in the mirror and acknowledge it.

    • #250
    • January 23, 2015, at 8:25 PM PST
    • Like
  11. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:reason we fear the slippery slope …. and doubt the honesty of the movement

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381148/state-dept-lgbt-speaker-we-dont-want-gay-marriage-we-want-no-marriage-ian-tuttle

    Oh, good, you found a loony leftist who said something stupid. There’s a surprise. And it’s certainly cause for denying tens of millions of Americans legal equality.

    and

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/313021/chick-fil-and-totalitarian-temptation-deroy-murdock

    As far as Dan Cathy goes, I think he’s a religious bigot, and I think in a free country, I’m entitled to say so. I think anybody who thinks it should be free to say so, including public officials. I would, however stop short of using the power of the state to interfere with his legitimate business activities on account of his beliefs, for the same reason I’d defend Dan Cathy’s right to say the things he says that I find offensive. Freedom means nothing if it doesn’t mean the freedom of Dan Cathy to offend me, and the freedom of me to offend Dan Cathy. To head you off at the pass though, let me add that if Dan Cathy worked for me in my private business, I might well fire him, and would certainly feel it my right to do so. I will defend him from state interference, but not from the negative reactions that non-state actors may have to his views.

    But the left is driving that issue and the lefty is representative of what the left, which holds many elements of power, has on its mind. Since we all have things that we accept and don’t accept, we are all seen as bigots by somebody. Cathey has the luxury of quantity in his circle of “bigots.” It is interesting that you would fire him for he does not fire people who disagree with him Rather, his chain is a good one to work for…and a good place to eat. No comment on Murdock links?

    The nutty “do away with marriage” meme is not representative of anything but an exotic fringe. You know how you can tell? Because you could only find one reference to it uttered by someone nobody’s ever heard of. Trying to tar me and the majority of Americans who favor same sex marriage rights with it is dishonest, or a cheap debate trick at best.

    And I’m not sure what Murdock links you mean. If you’ve posted some other link, I missed it.

    And not that it matters, but Chik-fil-a food is disgusting.

    If the person were an anomaly, her comment would be condemned.

    Not if nobody paid attention to it it wouldn’t. Obscure people say stupid things every day without producing a public outcry.

    • #251
    • January 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM PST
    • Like
  12. EHerring Coolidge

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:reason we fear the slippery slope …. and doubt the honesty of the movement

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381148/state-dept-lgbt-speaker-we-dont-want-gay-marriage-we-want-no-marriage-ian-tuttle

    Oh, good, you found a loony leftist who said something stupid. There’s a surprise. And it’s certainly cause for denying tens of millions of Americans legal equality.

    and

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/313021/chick-fil-and-totalitarian-temptation-deroy-murdock

    As far as Dan Cathy goes, I think he’s a religious bigot, and I think in a free country, I’m entitled to say so. I think anybody who thinks it should be free to say so, including public officials. I would, however stop short of using the power of the state to interfere with his legitimate business activities on account of his beliefs, for the same reason I’d defend Dan Cathy’s right to say the things he says that I find offensive. Freedom means nothing if it doesn’t mean the freedom of Dan Cathy to offend me, and the freedom of me to offend Dan Cathy. To head you off at the pass though, let me add that if Dan Cathy worked for me in my private business, I might well fire him, and would certainly feel it my right to do so. I will defend him from state interference, but not from the negative reactions that non-state actors may have to his views.

    But the left is driving that issue and the lefty is representative of what the left, which holds many elements of power, has on its mind. Since we all have things that we accept and don’t accept, we are all seen as bigots by somebody. Cathey has the luxury of quantity in his circle of “bigots.” It is interesting that you would fire him for he does not fire people who disagree with him Rather, his chain is a good one to work for…and a good place to eat. No comment on Murdock links?

    The nutty “do away with marriage” meme is not representative of anything but an exotic fringe. You know how you can tell? Because you could only find one reference to it uttered by someone nobody’s ever heard of. Trying to tar me and the majority of Americans who favor same sex marriage rights with it is dishonest, or a cheap debate trick at best.

    And I’m not sure what Murdock links you mean. If you’ve posted some other link, I missed it.

    And not that it matters, but Chik-fil-a food is disgusting.

    If the person were an anomaly, her comment would be condemned.

    Not if nobody paid attention to it it wouldn’t. Obscure people say stupid things every day without producing a public outcry.

    Not easy to ignore her when she is a government-chosen voice at a government-sponsored event precisely because the State Dpt is using the power of government to push an agenda.

    • #252
    • January 24, 2015, at 9:37 AM PST
    • Like
  13. EHerring Coolidge

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374559/gay-genes-or-choice-deroy-murdock

    The reason we never agree is because we don’t state the issue as well as he does.

    The point of this eludes me. I have never stuck a stake in the ground and said homosexuality was genetic. We’ve already had this conversation on this thread and you have tried to press the illogical position that if we can’t identify the cause with certainty, it must be a choice. To repeat, I’ve said that the causes are uncertain but that it is involuntary. The opposite of “choice” is “no choice;” it is not “genetic.”

    Involuntary? How do you distinguish between involuntary behavior and lack of self-restraint?

    Being homosexual is not a “behavior.” Were you heterosexual when you were a virgin?

    Yep. Hung out with girls and guys. Dated guys.

    I didn’t ask who you hung out with. Pretty much everybody’s “hung out with” both girls and guys. There are an awful lot of both around. I have “hung out with” both all my life, and still do today.

    Your claim to have been heterosexual and dated guys though, is I suppose the bait I’m supposed to bite on, but it occurs to me it only looks like bait because for whatever reason I’ve assumed you’re male. As I don’t actually know that, I’ll ask, before trodding down that path.

    In the meantime though, I’ll note that you seem to have been able to identify your orientation as heterosexual — despite not engaging in a “behavior” (you say you were a virgin) because of it. I’ll ask why you think it’s any different for homosexuals and failing an answer, assume that we can put the “it’s just a behavior and a lack of self restraint” slur behind us.

    You asked. I answered. I am heterosexual but that isn’t what defines me. I am a female. It is the behavior and not the person that is in the Bible. But then I am a hetero whether of not I am celibate.

    Remind me again why I’m supposed to believe that your disdain for me isn’t based on your religious beliefs?

    Can’t. I do not hold you in disdain. You seem to wish to believe everyone who disagrees with SSM marriage does hold you in disdain. Why? to give you a green light to hold them in disdain, too? to label them bigots? without feeling guilty for doing so?

    “Choice” “sin” “lack of self restraint” and the cause of “the breakdown of civil society” and “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government” the “the loss of freedom.” Unworthy of legal equality. That’s disdain, even if it’s uncomfortable for you to look in the mirror and acknowledge it.

    -“choice” – how so? Choice vs innate is at the heart of many debates and attempts to understand homosexuality and even its status as a right. The Murdock article says it doesn’t matter if it is choice or not if two consenting adults find pleasure in the arrangement. My argument is different – that if it is choice, then you have no right to force acceptance and and even classify those who don’t accept the behavior as bigoted.

    -“sin” – We are all sinners in the eyes of God. Are you saying I have disdain for myself and for all mankind? Again, the Bible prohibits certain behaviors,we call them sins, because the behavior damages. One can’t deny that homosexual male sexual activity causes many health problems. You may think this is an antiquated idea. Convince me otherwise once we find a cure for AIDS.

    – “the breakdown of civil society,” “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government,” and the “the loss of freedom” – yes, I have disdain for anyone who supports these for whatever reason. I openly and comfortably acknowledge this. Prove to me these don’t apply to the SSM movement. You only offer personal opinion. I have offered examples.

    -“lack of self restraint” – Do you argue with the premise or with the assumption that that is a bad thing? Heterosexuals can exercise self-restraint, although fewer do so now. Do you want a list of societal ills fueled by the sexual revolution?

    -Now let me addressed one – the accusation of bigotry when applied to religious people. The Bible lists ten commandments, the ones related to our relationship with God, “I am the Lord, your God. Thou shall bring no false idols before me. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.” I do not find society more civil now that it is full of pottie mouths. I also prefer the peaceful Sundays we had under the Blue Laws over the 7 days of hustle bustle we have now.

    This brings us to the ones on behavior, “Honor thy father and thy mother, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery,Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor, Thou shalt not covet your neighbor’s wife.” These are the biggees …. but I guess I better add the law that offends you, thou shalt not engage in homosexual sex. You contend religious people are bigots for recognizing the latter as forbidden behavior. Therefore, to avoid being a bigot, I must also tolerate dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and pursuing someone’s spouse.

    • #253
    • January 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM PST
    • Like
  14. Cato Rand Inactive

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:

    Cato Rand:

    EHerring:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374559/gay-genes-or-choice-deroy-murdock

    The reason we never agree is because we don’t state the issue as well as he does.

    The point of this eludes me. I have never stuck a stake in the ground and said homosexuality was genetic. We’ve already had this conversation on this thread and you have tried to press the illogical position that if we can’t identify the cause with certainty, it must be a choice. To repeat, I’ve said that the causes are uncertain but that it is involuntary. The opposite of “choice” is “no choice;” it is not “genetic.”

    Involuntary? How do you distinguish between involuntary behavior and lack of self-restraint?

    Being homosexual is not a “behavior.” Were you heterosexual when you were a virgin?

    Yep. Hung out with girls and guys. Dated guys.

    I didn’t ask who you hung out with. Pretty much everybody’s “hung out with” both girls and guys. There are an awful lot of both around. I have “hung out with” both all my life, and still do today.

    Your claim to have been heterosexual and dated guys though, is I suppose the bait I’m supposed to bite on, but it occurs to me it only looks like bait because for whatever reason I’ve assumed you’re male. As I don’t actually know that, I’ll ask, before trodding down that path.

    In the meantime though, I’ll note that you seem to have been able to identify your orientation as heterosexual — despite not engaging in a “behavior” (you say you were a virgin) because of it. I’ll ask why you think it’s any different for homosexuals and failing an answer, assume that we can put the “it’s just a behavior and a lack of self restraint” slur behind us.

    You asked. I answered. I am heterosexual but that isn’t what defines me. I am a female. It is the behavior and not the person that is in the Bible. But then I am a hetero whether of not I am celibate.

    Remind me again why I’m supposed to believe that your disdain for me isn’t based on your religious beliefs?

    Can’t. I do not hold you in disdain. You seem to wish to believe everyone who disagrees with SSM marriage does hold you in disdain. Why? to give you a green light to hold them in disdain, too? to label them bigots? without feeling guilty for doing so?

    “Choice” “sin” “lack of self restraint” and the cause of “the breakdown of civil society” and “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government” the “the loss of freedom.” Unworthy of legal equality. That’s disdain, even if it’s uncomfortable for you to look in the mirror and acknowledge it.

    -”choice” – how so? Choice vs innate is at the heart of many debates and attempts to understand homosexuality and even its status as a right. The Murdock article says it doesn’t matter if it is choice or not if two consenting adults find pleasure in the arrangement. My argument is different – that if it is choice, then you have no right to force acceptance and and even classify those who don’t accept the behavior as bigoted.

    -”sin” – We are all sinners in the eyes of God. Are you saying I have disdain for myself and for all mankind? Again, the Bible prohibits certain behaviors,we call them sins, because the behavior damages. One can’t deny that homosexual male sexual activity causes many health problems. You may think this is an antiquated idea. Convince me otherwise once we find a cure for AIDS.

    – “the breakdown of civil society,” “the growing size, power, and interference of the federal government,” and the “the loss of freedom” – yes, I have disdain for anyone who supports these for whatever reason. I openly and comfortably acknowledge this. Prove to me these don’t apply to the SSM movement. You only offer personal opinion. I have offered examples.

    -”lack of self restraint” – Do you argue with the premise or with the assumption that that is a bad thing? Heterosexuals can exercise self-restraint, although fewer do so now. Do you want a list of societal ills fueled by the sexual revolution?

    -Now let me addressed one – the accusation of bigotry when applied to religious people. The Bible lists ten commandments, the ones related to our relationship with God, “I am the Lord, your God. Thou shall bring no false idols before me. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.” I do not find society more civil now that it is full of pottie mouths. I also prefer the peaceful Sundays we had under the Blue Laws over the 7 days of hustle bustle we have now.

    This brings us to the ones on behavior, “Honor thy father and thy mother, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery,Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor, Thou shalt not covet your neighbor’s wife.” These are the biggees …. but I guess I better add the law that offends you, thou shalt not engage in homosexual sex. You contend religious people are bigots for recognizing the latter as forbidden behavior. Therefore, to avoid being a bigot, I must also tolerate dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and pursuing someone’s spouse.

    Once again you demonstrate that your disdain is entirely rational and has nothing to do with your religious prejudices.

    • #254
    • January 24, 2015, at 11:09 AM PST
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  15. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVeyJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    “Exercise self restraint?” The guy got married, for Chrissakes. He’s been married for ten years.

    Ask any married man, with a smile, if the very essence of the “job” involves self-restraint.

    • #255
    • January 24, 2015, at 11:53 AM PST
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  16. Cato Rand Inactive

    Gary McVey:“Exercise self restraint?” The guy got married, for Chrissakes. He’s been married for ten years.

    Ask any married man, with a smile, if the very essence of the “job” involves self-restraint.

    No Gary. I’m out spreading AIDS and breaking down civil society with the practice of my perversion, which I chose for the purpose of defying God.

    • #256
    • January 24, 2015, at 12:34 PM PST
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  17. EHerring Coolidge

    Gary McVey:“Exercise self restraint?” The guy got married, for Chrissakes. He’s been married for ten years.

    Ask any married man, with a smile, if the very essence of the “job” involves self-restraint.

    Yes, it would seem that, despite claims otherwise, homosexuals are getting along just fine picking and living with mates …. for 10 years even? Then I ask again, what is it they will gain by this movement?

    • #257
    • January 24, 2015, at 6:44 PM PST
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  18. EHerring Coolidge

    EHerring:

    Gary McVey:“Exercise self restraint?” The guy got married, for Chrissakes. He’s been married for ten years.

    Ask any married man, with a smile, if the very essence of the “job” involves self-restraint.

    Yes, it would seem that, despite claims otherwise, homosexuals are getting along just fine picking and living with mates …. for 10 years even? Then I ask again, what is it they will gain by this movement?

    Cato Rand:

    Gary McVey:“Exercise self restraint?” The guy got married, for Chrissakes. He’s been married for ten years.

    Ask any married man, with a smile, if the very essence of the “job” involves self-restraint.

    No Gary. I’m out spreading AIDS and breaking down civil society with the practice of my perversion, which I chose for the purpose of defying God.

    Then why don’t you argue that rather than make up some new right and demand federal government sanction. At least the argument that it is a more moral choice for homosexuals just as it is for heteros is more palatable and doesn’t turn the COnstitution on its head. But then I have been there before somewhere around comment #14* ” There is good argument that if it civilizes heterosexuals and makes them more prosperous, then civil unions should be encouraged for homosexuals, as well, for most of the same reasons. I have no problem with the people of the states voting to determine whether their state will allow civil unions. I think “marriage” as a term should be reserved for the union of the male and female to establish a household and raise a family.”

    • #258
    • January 24, 2015, at 6:49 PM PST
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