Krauthammer, the Serial Comma[,] and the Wit of the Staircase

 

In Things That Matter, Charles Krauthammer declares war on the comma in general, and the serial comma (“…whether you write a,b, and c rather than a, b and c”)  in particular:

“[Commas] are a pestilence.  They must be stopped.  This book is a continuation of that campaign.”

This surprised me. Long have I adhered to the gospel of the serial comma.  I was trained early to render it “a, b, and c.” This was further ingrained in me when I discovered Strunk and White in college. See rule #2 in Part I, “The Elementary Rules of Usage.” In my 1959 copy, it is on the first page. You can’t miss it.

Placing the serial comma before the “and” has a certain logic to it. I’ve always thought that the absence of the comma before “and” leaves the final two items in a list joined more closely than  the other items. This may be the writer’s intent, but it may not be. Most often, in my experience, “b” and “c ” shouldn’t be any more closely linked than “a” and “b.”

However, Charles Krauthammer has earned the benefit of the doubt. Since he is pretty much always right (I’m not sure I’ve ever known him to be wrong) his assertion in favor of “a, b and c” was enough to give me pause to reflect.  I’ve been paying close attention since I read Things That Matter last October.

I see “a, b and c” everywhere. It seems to be the house style of The Wall Street Journal. I think NR is still an “a, b, and c” outfit. I must admit, I just may be coming around to Krauthammer’s position. I think “a, b and c” has a cleaner look. This is a radical change for me. (I once threw a fit when some marketing people used “a, b and c ” in the copy on my medical group’s website.)

Am I going mad? Am I so crazed with Krauthammer-worship that I have recklessly discarded my principles? Or  is he right?

Alas, I had the chance to mention this to him last week when I met him at a reception before a talk he gave in Oklahoma City. I fell victim to what I have elsewhere seen Krauthammer call l’esprit de l’escalier, or “the wit of the staircase” (the feeling of thinking of a witty comment or riposte, but only as you are on the staircase leaving the dinner party). I just had a few seconds, so it would have only been one line, something like “You’ve turned me against the serial comma,” but it would have been better than the nonplussed stupid blank smile I displayed as I sat down to have my picture taken with him. Fortunately, he rescued my dad and me by asking us our names. We told him, and he said, “So you guys are brothers, right?” (I’m 39; my dad is 76.)

I also could have mentioned that he turned me on to Borges…or that my wife was PO’d at me because she was sick at home on the couch and CK wasn’t going to be on Special Report.

It was an unbelievably great talk, by the way. He’s the best we have.

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  1. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    “a, b, and c”

    Serial capitalizing is another matter entirely.

    • #1
  2. user_358258 Inactive
    user_358258
    @RandyWebster

    I think the comma between b and c is known as the Oxford comma.  It serves a purpose.

    • #2
  3. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Finally, I have a reason to unambigiously oppose Charles Krauthammer.

    He can have my Oxford Comma when he pries it from my cold, dead hands.

    ;-)

    • #3
  4. Devereaux Inactive
    Devereaux
    @Devereaux

    Unlike you, I have found Krauthammer intelligent and thoughtful but far from always right. This is just one example of him being wrong.

    • #4
  5. user_82762 Inactive
    user_82762
    @JamesGawron

    Matt,

    This is very serious (..hmmm).  I grew up with my commas ending before the last two items.  I always had the feeling that it was wrong.  The last two items floating around somehow.  Then, late in life, I discovered the serial comma.  Suddenly all was right with my sentence structure.

    I think the world of Krauthammer but I will not give up the serial comma now that I have found it.

    Pax Grammatica

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #5
  6. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I’m an editor.  That’s what I do for a living.  I put the “series comma” in.  Chicago Manual recommends it and always has.  I had no idea the WSJ was taking it out these days.  It explains a lot–I edit a lot of business books.  Hmmm.  

    Although Dr. Krauthammer is at the top of my most-admired list, on this we disagree, probably the only thing we disagree on actually.  

    The goal is always to make copy as easy to read as possible.  The series comma helps the reader know he or she is at the end of the list and that, as you pointed out so wisely, apples, berries, and cherries are equal in every way–they are all fruits.  When the series comma is missing, parallelism issues arise that befuddle the brain. 

    That said, that silly little comma before “too” in a sentence: Dr. Krauthammer, do raise your voice.  Modern style books took that comma out thirty years ago.  It must be the nation’s seventh-grade English teachers–a group of people I greatly admire and respect–who keep it there in people’s minds.  The comma before “too” interrupts the sentence.  It calls attention to something that is largely insignificant.  It needs to go into the comma ash heap.

    • #6
  7. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Smart people and thoughtful writers here on Ricochet.  A whole group of series comma devotees.  How cool is that!

    • #7
  8. user_140544 Inactive
    user_140544
    @MattBlankenship

    Devereaux:Unlike you, I have found Krauthammer intelligent and thoughtful but far from always right. This is just one example of him being wrong.

     I know.  That was intended as hyperbole.  As with irony, hyperbole often falls flat–or is at least hard to get across–on a Ricochet post or comment.  I do think he is right a lot.  Probably even a little more often than George Will.

    • #8
  9. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I wish I could find it quickly, but one of my favorite Ann Coulter quotes comes from a preface to one of her books.  She thanks her long-time editor, particularly for putting commas in her copy as needed.  In frustration, he asked her one time, “What did commas ever do to your family?”

    • #9
  10. user_140544 Inactive
    user_140544
    @MattBlankenship

    You guys have given me strength.  I am coming to my senses.  Now, the wit of the staircase tells me that I should have used the opportunity to assail him for his position on this great question!

    • #10
  11. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    MarciN: How cool is that!

     Shouldn’t there be a question mark?

    • #11
  12. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    I, too, disagree with Dr. Krauthammer.

    [two commas ’round “too” just to annoy MarciN]

    • #12
  13. user_1050 Member
    user_1050
    @MattBartle

    Wow, first Jay Nordlinger succumbs to “could care less” and now this?

    I don’t know what world I’m living in any more.

    • #13
  14. user_1938 Inactive
    user_1938
    @AaronMiller

    I use both ways. It depends on the sentence. As Marci says, readability is one concern. Another is pacing. Commas can be useful not only to separate dependent phrases or thoughts, but also to control the sound of a sentence. (Incidentally, the comma in that last sentence both slows the reading and simplifies a long statement.)

    “I want grits, bacon and eggs.” Clear enough, right?

    “I like grits, bacon and eggs.” In this sentence, is “bacon and eggs” one object or two? A comma would clarify.

    My main gripe concerning commas is the expectation that they should be included at the beginning but not at the end of what is effectively the same sentence. For example:

    “Tomorrow, the game is on.”

    “The game is on tomorrow.”

    Nonsense! The ruling factor in cases like these is aesthetics. Educators try to eliminate the need for prudential judgement with universal rules, probably to simplify grading. But writers should be allowed individual voices.

    By the way, the semicolon is the most underappreciated punctuation mark in the English language.

    • #14
  15. Old Buckeye Inactive
    Old Buckeye
    @OldBuckeye

    Another editor weighing in here. The serial/Oxford comma is a matter of style only–not a grammar rule. You may choose to use it or not. The trick is to use/not use it consistently within a document or publication. Associated Press style is the major style that leaves it out, which is why it’s often omitted in newspapers, AP being the style that many newspapers follow. (Although The New York Times has deviations from any published style.) Works in the humanities fields more commonly retain the serial comma.

    • #15
  16. user_140544 Inactive
    user_140544
    @MattBlankenship

    I use dashes and parentheticals too much.  That has no direct bearing on this topic, but I wanted to get it off my chest.

    • #16
  17. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Let’s go eat grandma.

    Let’s go eat, grandma.

    God invented commas to prevent cannibalism.

    • #17
  18. Son of Spengler Member
    Son of Spengler
    @SonofSpengler

    Buzzfeed provides examples of why the Oxford comma generally makes things clearer. My favorite: “Highlights of [Peter Ustinov’s] global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.”

    • #18
  19. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Ahhhhhhh … The Oxford comma. To loosely quote Lynn Truss (Eats, Shoots and Leaves) do not get in between those who disagree on the Oxford comma when drink has been taken.

    • #19
  20. user_1938 Inactive
    user_1938
    @AaronMiller

    MarciN: That said, that silly little comma before “too” in a sentence: Dr. Krauthammer, do raise your voice.  Modern style books took that comma out thirty years ago.  It must be the nation’s seventh-grade English teachers–a group of people I greatly admire and respect–who keep it there in people’s minds.  The comma before “too” interrupts the sentence.  It calls attention to something that is largely insignificant.  It needs to go into the comma ash heap.

    Yes! Sadly, I usually comply with the standard just to avoid the wrath of grammar police.

    Also, periods are entirely unnecessary after abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms. (You didn’t need the comma that time, did you?) USA, NATO, Mr, Mrs — What’s the point?

    • #20
  21. user_1938 Inactive
    user_1938
    @AaronMiller

    Jimmy Carter:

    MarciN: How cool is that!

    Shouldn’t there be a question mark?

     Philistine!

    That’s another rule that needs to die. If the question is rhetorical and the purpose of the sentence is excitement, just use an exclamation mark. If the primary purpose is to express excitement but the question is genuine, use both. Understand?!

    But don’t use dual punctuation at the end of sentences too often, or we will lock you in a room with squealing teenage girls until your enthusiasm is extinguished.

    • #21
  22. user_140544 Inactive
    user_140544
    @MattBlankenship

    Aaron Miller:

    Also, periods are entirely unnecessary after abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms. (You didn’t need the comma that time, did you?) USA, NATO, Mr, Mrs — What’s the point?

    British English agrees with you.

    • #22
  23. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    Aaron Miller: Philistine! That’s another rule that needs to die.

     

    You progressives are screwing up everything; that includes MarciN, too.

    • #23
  24. user_140544 Inactive
    user_140544
    @MattBlankenship

    OK, while we are on grammar amd style I have a question for the lurking editors: What do you guys do with a comma or period (or question mark or exclamation point) that abuts the close of a quote, but is not really part of the quote?   I was trained that punctuation  always goes within the quotation marks, and that is still what looks right to me.  But what if the “question mark is not really part of the quote”?  [That was supposed to be an example.]  Do the British also do this differently?

    • #24
  25. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Thanks for this, Matt.  I bow before your having met Dr. K…I’m such a fangirl <grin>. I love this book!

    Aaron, it’s British usage not to use a period after a title – and acronyms like NATO don’t need one (says the recovering English major.)  Cheers!

    • #25
  26. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    “The question mark is placed inside the quote[?]”

    And don’t let Aaron tell You otherwise.

    • #26
  27. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Jimmy Carter:I, too, disagree with Dr. Krauthammer.[two commas ’round “too” just to annoy MarciN]

     help help help

    • #27
  28. Mrs K Inactive
    Mrs K
    @MrsK

    Another Oxford comma user here. Mollie posted about this a couple of years ago. http://ricochet.com/archives/the-oxford-comma-is-great-but-not-for-this-reason/

    • #28
  29. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    The Brits do this more logically sometimes.  However, American style is to put a question mark or exclamation mark inside the quotes only if it goes with the quotation.

    All periods and commas go inside quotation marks.  That rule is nearly inviolable.   It was an American printers’ convention, and it comes from the days of setting lead letter type character by character. It was easier not to drop the periods and commas if they were inside.   The American printers’ union was one of the first and most powerful unions in America.  They were responsible for the original copyright laws, which created the first protectionist tariff. Publishers could not carry a U.S. copyright unless the book was printed in the United States. 

    I convert a great many British books to American style for publication here.  I find the work so interesting  because some of the American English rules I go by don’t make logical sense to me, and then I stumble across the same, for example, collective noun in the British books, suddenly it makes sense logically:  the family were all there.

    • #29
  30. user_646010 Member
    user_646010
    @Kephalithos

    My rule of thumb: when in doubt, use the comma.

    Ignoring commas entirely seems the default position of most Americans. I’d rather overcompensate (and indicate that I indeed think about punctuation) than emulate.

    Rigid adherence to grammatical rules in vogue does not define good writing; clarity and control do.

    • #30
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