The US Must Pull Out of Germany/Europe

 

It is abundantly clear that the US-NATO umbrella over Europe has achieved the complete infantilization of the Continent. Lacking the need to do anything serious in terms of core national interest (i.e., defense), Europe has entirely lost the plot.

There is no longer any justification for propping up Germany, or any nation that refuses to invest in its own national defense. Beyond that: the US should not be defending illiberal countries that arrest people for “mean tweets.” If the US pulls out, Europe gets the very sharp shock that it needs if it is going to wake up, defend against Russia, reduce the Nanny State, and deport Muslims.

Truly: the US should leave Europe – for its own good.

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  1. EJHill Staff
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    cdor: We have facilities all over the world without having NATO-like treaties with those countries if that is the point you are making.

    You retreat from NATO you’re not going to “have facilities all over the world.”

    • #61
  2. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    EJHill (View Comment):

    cdor: We have facilities all over the world without having NATO-like treaties with those countries if that is the point you are making.

    You retreat from NATO you’re not going to “have facilities all over the world.”

    Retreat? How about make it better? Or, move on. If we no longer share a common bond how can we be allies? I am not saying we are at that point. But Vance was giving a kick in the butt – a plea of sorts or a warning. It’s a lot of money and responsibility just for a military hospital that could be built elsewhere.

    • #62
  3. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    sawatdeeka (View Comment):

    However, I don’t believe Vance’s speech is a good example of what you’re talking about.

    Why not? Vance’s constituents are the ones who feel threatened by the very real Democratic infringements on free speech. Especially on social media. That’s the kind of scenario he was browbeating the Europeans about. Wasn’t his speech at the security conference meant for his constituents’ consumption? I think his speech was great in and of itself. The Europeans should be scolded for it. But doing it when we’re trying to figure out how to deal with Putin…who makes the European speech police look like Thomas Jefferson… seems misdirected.

    • #63
  4. ELIZABETH RIVERA Member
    ELIZABETH RIVERA
    @ELIZABETHRIVERA

    Hello, iWe – I agree with much of your take but having some US troops stationed in Europe could be very useful if we go to was with China – CDR Salamander discussed this in his Substack essay today:

    “Should China decide to challenge the USA in the Pacific, Europe will be an economy of force operation for the USA, as almost all we have will be needed west of the International Date Line.”

     

    • #64
  5. GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms Reagan
    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms
    @GLDIII

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? I know the Germans did and the Russians filled in the vacuum after the US beat Germany, but has Russia ever expanded on their own?

    From 1772 to 1795 Russia participated in the three Partitions of Poland with the Hapsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia that eliminated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    Is this what you think recurs if America is out of it?

    Nah. They’ll gobble up the Baltic States first.

    And does that threaten America or Europe?

    If threatens cruise ship itineraries. The rest is a rerun.

    Well it is probably cheaper and safer to just visit the World Showcase at EPCOT for your globe trotting urges.

     

    • #65
  6. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Russian troops left Poland in 1993

    Russian troops left the Baltic States in 1991

    Russian troops left Czechoslovakia in 1991

    Russian troops left Hungary in 1991

    Russian troops left Germany in 1994

    Close to 50 years of Russian military occupation in Eastern Europe after WWII. Nations do not have friends; they do have national interests. The days of two large oceans that protected the United States from invasion, occupation, and the destruction of cities ended with the development of missiles and now internet attacks.

    They must be running short of troops. Now they are using expendable North Koreans.

    The Russians are using contract troops, not draftees. Russia has four times the population of Ukraine. If they suddenly got a burr in their saddle, they could make some messes at the cost of much higher domestic political umbrage. Right now, the Russian economy grew 4.4% in 2024 and they used new hypersonic missiles last year to good effect. The myth that Russia is in collapse is misinformation to prepare to claim that Trump defeated Ukraine when Russia was moments from collapse. Russia is actually advancing on all fronts, albeit slowly. 

    • #66
  7. JosephCox Coolidge
    JosephCox
    @JosephCox

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? 

    Well, they like to celebrate their troops in Paris in 1814 :)

    • #67
  8. JosephCox Coolidge
    JosephCox
    @JosephCox

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    Russia has effectively never expanded on their own. 

    Russia, of course, has expanded on its own. Just not (much) into Europe.

    In Europe, the USSR ‘annexed’ numerous European or Europe-adjacent territories shortly after its foundation (Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia)  and then again after WWII (Moldova, Baltics, Armenia). Going back further, Finland was conquered in 1809 and an occupied buffer state until 1918. In the east, of course, Russia expanded dramatically over time – becoming what is now the largest colonial power on earth (and which was far larger in Soviet times).

    • #68
  9. JosephCox Coolidge
    JosephCox
    @JosephCox

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    AMD Texas (View Comment):
    I don’t think it is an exaggeration to say that the Russians did as much if not more to beat them.

    The Russians lost, IIRC, a million men on the German front. Ask Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Their view of the Italian campaign and of the Normandy landings is as a distracting action.

    We lost slightly fewer than 100,000 men and women in the European and Pacific fronts combined.

    Deaths is not the same as achievement. Ask Hezbollah.

    According to the ever unreliable Wikipedia, the German High Command reported 1.1 million Army deaths specifically in the East and 190,000 every place else. Interestingly, injuries were far more balanced with over 600,000 on fronts other than Russia (with 1 million there).

    So, in terms of punishing German military capacity the Western front does seem like a distraction.

    • #69
  10. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    iWe (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):
    Ok, let’s get past the politics and talk about logistics. Between 2004 and 2012, a total of 14,000 injured US servicemen were evacuated from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to the US Military Hospital in Landstuhl, Germany. (Plus their satellite facilities, two in Belgium, two in Italy and three others in Germany.) The survival rate for Landstuhl Level I Trama patients is 99.5%.

    Nothing that cannot be matched by the upcoming and amazing US hospital on US sovereign soil in Gaza. Closer to the action, too.

    I wouldn’t plan on the US sovereign soil until it actually occurs.   Seems like a low probability event.

    • #70
  11. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Reminder: Gaza comes with citizens.

    • #71
  12. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    EODmom (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? I know the Germans did and the Russians filled in the vacuum after the US beat Germany, but has Russia ever expanded on their own?

    From 1772 to 1795 Russia participated in the three Partitions of Poland with the Hapsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia that eliminated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    Is this what you think recurs if America is out of it?

    Nah. They’ll gobble up the Baltic States first.

    And does that threaten America or Europe?

    If threatens cruise ship itineraries. The rest is a rerun.

    Until China takes Taiwan and the high-tech chip foundries.

    China unlikely to take it intact.

    And I bet many of those calling for us to continue to support Ukraine will be against supporting Taiwan.

    • #72
  13. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ok, let’s get past the politics and talk about logistics. Between 2004 and 2012, a total of 14,000 injured US servicemen were evacuated from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to the US Military Hospital in Landstuhl, Germany. (Plus their satellite facilities, two in Belgium, two in Italy and three others in Germany.) The survival rate for Landstuhl Level I Trama patients is 99.5%.

    So, get into a political snit about who’s pulling their weight in NATO or who’s propping up who for what reason is consigning more American servicemen to death and needless grieving for their families.

    Yeah, let’s close our facilities in Europe. That’ll teach us.

    (Statistics provided by the US Army to the American Forces Press Service.)

    The building was an undermanned dump when I had my baby there in 1984.  It existed to serve the 75,000 Americans in The Pfalz. At the time, it wasn’t treating trauma patients involved in wars. And yes, the doctors and skills they added to support the wars did an amazing thing and saved many lives. With the wars over, it will downsize to be even smaller than it was when I was there, probably already has been. Like all other warfighting efforts, it was manned by stateside units and notional taskings. Medical personnel are a premium commodity and they don’t deploy to where they aren’t needed. We have already eliminated much of our Cold War units that were on AF bases and turned the bases and land back to the Germans. The Army hospital here was always rotating doctors over there on TDY assignments. 

    • #73
  14. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    cdor (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ok, let’s get past the politics and talk about logistics. Between 2004 and 2012, a total of 14,000 injured US servicemen were evacuated from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to the US Military Hospital in Landstuhl, Germany. (Plus their satellite facilities, two in Belgium, two in Italy and three others in Germany.) The survival rate for Landstuhl Level I Trama patients is 99.5%.

    So, get into a political snit about who’s pulling their weight in NATO or who’s propping up who for what reason is consigning more American servicemen to death and needless grieving for their families.

    Yeah, let’s close our facilities in Europe. That’ll teach us.

    (Statistics provided by the US Army to the American Forces Press Service.)

    We have facilities all over the world without having NATO-like treaties with those countries if that is the point you are making.

    And with the wars over, all those specialized medical people have returned back to their home bases.

    • #74
  15. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Chris O (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment):

    Chris O (View Comment):

    Okay, here’s the deal: Russia hates Germany. You cannot apply a strong enough level to that statement. If we leave, Germans have to fill the gap. Russia will be very unhappy about that. Not that I care about their interests, but we’ve seen how Russia behaves, particularly with imagined threats nearby. Confronted with a militarily strengthened Germany…I don’t know.

    Russia isn’t near as threatened by us being in Germany as it would be for Germans to be armed and equipped in Germany. No matter, the country is trying to destroy itself and Russia is falling apart anyway, but, of course, that makes things worse, not better.

    Why should we care? Mainly because we don’t want the winds spreading the nuclear fallout all over the Earth. Plus, Danube River cruises.

    Oh, shoot! I forgot about the Danube cruises.

    Clearly a matter of national security (not to mention Rhine River cruises).

    I want to book the Budapest to Prague leg. I also want to do the Baltic cruise…those two bucket list cruises might not happen. 

    • #75
  16. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    EJHill (View Comment):

    cdor: We have facilities all over the world without having NATO-like treaties with those countries if that is the point you are making.

    You retreat from NATO you’re not going to “have facilities all over the world.”

    We will if we have to go back in. We have been shedding units and bases for years. 

    • #76
  17. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    cdor (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    cdor: We have facilities all over the world without having NATO-like treaties with those countries if that is the point you are making.

    You retreat from NATO you’re not going to “have facilities all over the world.”

    Retreat? How about make it better? Or, move on. If we no longer share a common bond how can we be allies? I am not saying we are at that point. But Vance was giving a kick in the butt – a plea of sorts or a warning. It’s a lot of money and responsibility just for a military hospital that could be built elsewhere.

    And a new one should be built to replace the very old one in Landstuhl..

    • #77
  18. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Ma… (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? I know the Germans did and the Russians filled in the vacuum after the US beat Germany, but has Russia ever expanded on their own?

    From 1772 to 1795 Russia participated in the three Partitions of Poland with the Hapsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia that eliminated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    Is this what you think recurs if America is out of it?

    Nah. They’ll gobble up the Baltic States first.

    And does that threaten America or Europe?

    If threatens cruise ship itineraries. The rest is a rerun.

    Well it is probably cheaper and safer to just visit the World Showcase at EPCOT for your globe trotting urges.

     

    I’m not sure a vacation at the Money Kingdom has ever been used before as a cheaper safer vacation option.

    • #78
  19. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    EODmom (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? I know the Germans did and the Russians filled in the vacuum after the US beat Germany, but has Russia ever expanded on their own?

    From 1772 to 1795 Russia participated in the three Partitions of Poland with the Hapsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia that eliminated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    Is this what you think recurs if America is out of it?

    Nah. They’ll gobble up the Baltic States first.

    And does that threaten America or Europe?

    If threatens cruise ship itineraries. The rest is a rerun.

    Until China takes Taiwan and the high-tech chip foundries.

    China unlikely to take it intact.

    And I bet many of those calling for us to continue to support Ukraine will be against supporting Taiwan.

    I suspect the people supporting Taiwan are the same people supporting Ukraine.

    • #79
  20. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    EODmom (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    DonG (¡Afuera!) (View Comment):
    Has Russia ever conquered a European country? I know the Germans did and the Russians filled in the vacuum after the US beat Germany, but has Russia ever expanded on their own?

    From 1772 to 1795 Russia participated in the three Partitions of Poland with the Hapsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia that eliminated the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    Is this what you think recurs if America is out of it?

    Nah. They’ll gobble up the Baltic States first.

    And does that threaten America or Europe?

    If threatens cruise ship itineraries. The rest is a rerun.

    Until China takes Taiwan and the high-tech chip foundries.

    China unlikely to take it intact.

    Cutting the West off from Taiwan, their high-tech chip foundries, and the Taiwanese Brains and Knowledge will be bad,  regardless of whether the foundries are commandeered by China or merely destroyed.

    • #80
  21. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Percival (View Comment):

    It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.

    — Anonymous

    Reportedly a sign above Governor Reagan’s desk.

    • #81
  22. Chris O Coolidge
    Chris O
    @ChrisO

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Until China takes Taiwan and the high-tech chip foundries.

    China unlikely to take it intact.

    Cutting the West off from Taiwan, their high-tech chip foundries, and the Taiwanese Brains and Knowledge will be bad, regardless of whether the foundries are commandeered by China or merely destroyed.

    That is a bad prospect, and worse is the loss of a liberal (voting) democracy to a communist despot. If China does this and is successful, they (Xi) will have every motivation to continue, particularly as a distraction for major difficulties developing within their economy. 

    Similarly, we saw Russia planned to go to Moldova after Ukraine. No doubt had things gone to plan, they’d already be there.

    Incidentally, the Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are NATO members. It would take much verbal capitulation for Russia to move against them. The US out of Europe would probably be an item on a checklist of things Russia would need to happen.

    • #82
  23. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.

    — Anonymous

    Reportedly a sign above Governor Reagan’s desk.

    I’ve also heard Harry S Truman, Edward Everett Hale, and others.

    The quote (and variations) have been credited to lots of people over the years. Quote Investigator contends mightily with the question , but concludes that though a Jesuit priest known as Father Strickland may have been first in a diary entry in 1863, parallel independent development cannot be ruled out.

    Wasn’t me.

    • #83
  24. GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms Reagan
    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms
    @GLDIII

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Chris O (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment):

    Chris O (View Comment):

    Okay, here’s the deal: Russia hates Germany. You cannot apply a strong enough level to that statement. If we leave, Germans have to fill the gap. Russia will be very unhappy about that. Not that I care about their interests, but we’ve seen how Russia behaves, particularly with imagined threats nearby. Confronted with a militarily strengthened Germany…I don’t know.

    Russia isn’t near as threatened by us being in Germany as it would be for Germans to be armed and equipped in Germany. No matter, the country is trying to destroy itself and Russia is falling apart anyway, but, of course, that makes things worse, not better.

    Why should we care? Mainly because we don’t want the winds spreading the nuclear fallout all over the Earth. Plus, Danube River cruises.

    Oh, shoot! I forgot about the Danube cruises.

    Clearly a matter of national security (not to mention Rhine River cruises).

    I want to book the Budapest to Prague leg. I also want to do the Baltic cruise…those two bucket list cruises might not happen.

    I really enjoyed our Baltic Cruise, it was a 18 months after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and we spent 2 days in St Petersburg. My impression was if this was their city of cultural excellence, it was is sad shabby shape, Especially in contrast the other Baltic countries that recently were released from the Soviet grip that we visited on that trip.

    • #84
  25. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Ma… (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Chris O (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment):

    Chris O (View Comment):

    Okay, here’s the deal: Russia hates Germany. You cannot apply a strong enough level to that statement. If we leave, Germans have to fill the gap. Russia will be very unhappy about that. Not that I care about their interests, but we’ve seen how Russia behaves, particularly with imagined threats nearby. Confronted with a militarily strengthened Germany…I don’t know.

    Russia isn’t near as threatened by us being in Germany as it would be for Germans to be armed and equipped in Germany. No matter, the country is trying to destroy itself and Russia is falling apart anyway, but, of course, that makes things worse, not better.

    Why should we care? Mainly because we don’t want the winds spreading the nuclear fallout all over the Earth. Plus, Danube River cruises.

    Oh, shoot! I forgot about the Danube cruises.

    Clearly a matter of national security (not to mention Rhine River cruises).

    I want to book the Budapest to Prague leg. I also want to do the Baltic cruise…those two bucket list cruises might not happen.

    I really enjoyed our Baltic Cruise, it was a 18 months after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and we spent 2 days in St Petersburg. My impression was if this was their city of cultural excellence, it was is sad shabby shape, Especially in contrast the other Baltic countries that recently were released from the Soviet grip that we visited on that trip.

    Klaipėda, Riga, and Tallinn had a head start in revving their engines.

    • #85
  26. tanglewoodfox Member
    tanglewoodfox
    @tanglewoodfox

    I’m of two minds on this.   On the one hand, we are $37 Trillion in debt and I dont like the idea of providing first world countries with security that they should be doing themselves.   It’s bad enough we pay money to the third world in aid that probably goes to corrupt dictators.   My great grandkids are going to paying that debt off.

    On the other hand I believe an under-militarized Europe on its own would look like a juicy target for Putin.   I can tell you from years doing business in Germany they are a different people than the ones my Uncle Frank fought in WW2.

    • #86
  27. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Russian troops left Poland in 1993

    Russian troops left the Baltic States in 1991

    Russian troops left Czechoslovakia in 1991

    Russian troops left Hungary in 1991

    Russian troops left Germany in 1994

    Close to 50 years of Russian military occupation in Eastern Europe after WWII. Nations do not have friends; they do have national interests. The days of two large oceans that protected the United States from invasion, occupation, and the destruction of cities ended with the development of missiles and now internet attacks.

    They must be running short of troops. Now they are using expendable North Koreans.

    The Russians are using contract troops, not draftees. Russia has four times the population of Ukraine. If they suddenly got a burr in their saddle, they could make some messes at the cost of much higher domestic political umbrage. Right now, the Russian economy grew 4.4% in 2024 and they used new hypersonic missiles last year to good effect. The myth that Russia is in collapse is misinformation to prepare to claim that Trump defeated Ukraine when Russia was moments from collapse. Russia is actually advancing on all fronts, albeit slowly.

    We don’t know if Russia’s economy is growing at 4%. I’m doubtful.

    Regardless, they do have the potential manpower to grind the Ukrainian army down. Can their troops be motivated to do so? Hard to say.

    Really fast missiles aren’t war winners. Guys on the ground with bayonets are the critical weapon.

    The Russians can win. Providing they are willing to accept the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory.

    • #87
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it, but Dennis Prager used to say – and probably still does – that Europe learned the wrong lesson from WW II.  Rather than learning to fight evil, they learned that fighting IS evil.

    • #88
  29. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it, but Dennis Prager used to say – and probably still does – that Europe learned the wrong lesson from WW II. Rather than learning to fight evil, they learned that fighting IS evil.

    And apparently what they got from all of those rousing Hitler speeches was that speech was the real threat.

    • #89
  30. Chris O Coolidge
    Chris O
    @ChrisO

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it, but Dennis Prager used to say – and probably still does – that Europe learned the wrong lesson from WW II. Rather than learning to fight evil, they learned that fighting IS evil.

    And apparently what they got from all of those rousing Hitler speeches was that speech was the real threat.

    Well, of course. How could you blame an individual for choosing to act based on his words? He was very charismatic, they say.

    • #90
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