Time for the Jacksonian Response?

 

I thought we would soon see this, this material from a RedState article.

A federal judge issued an order Saturday that purports to not only stop the US DOGE Service, which is part of the Executive Office of the President, from accessing data on federal payments, but also prohibits Treasury officials from accessing the system managed by that agency. Buying into a tenuous — one might say bull**** — claim of “irreparable harm,” a leftist Obama appointee serving in the Southern District of New York blocked access to Treasury systems and demanded Trump’s audit team “immediately destroy any and all copies of material downloaded from the Treasury Department’s records and systems, if any.”

Is there any supervision at all of the federal court system?

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  1. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Sounds like the court order interferes with the President’s Constitutional authority.

    What standing does the NY AG have in this matter. Is she going to suffer “irreparable harm”? Maybe! Let’s hope so!

    • #1
  2. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Is there any supervision at all of the federal court system?

    As you’ve probably figured, no.  Unfortunately, one of the skillsets in the “practice of law” is forum shopping for just the right District Court judge.

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    • #2
  3. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    How would the court order be enforced? @hoyacon

    • #3
  4. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    •  

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    It is supposed to be. Except in the fever dreams of Federal Circuit Court judges, I guess.

    • #4
  5. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    •  

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    That’s one way to phrase it, and I do not know the answer but would say “no.”The other way to look at it would be to ask if there is any data that should not be be accessed by the President as a matter of principle.  Tax returns?

    • #5
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    •  

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    That’s one way to phrase it, and I do not know the answer but would say “no.”The other way to look at it would be to ask if there is any data that should not be be accessed by the President as a matter of principle. Tax returns?

    I agree. But we are not there with this as far as I can tell. Some of the kind of payments being assessed might show something going to New York related to some of the actions against Trump during Biden’s term. 

    The entertainment value of this beats Hollywood.

    • #6
  7. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Is there any supervision at all of the federal court system?

    As you’ve probably figured, no. Unfortunately, one of the skillsets in the “practice of law” is forum shopping for just the right District Court judge.

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    Obviously, if this data mining breaks a law, a conservative’s reaction would be the same, no matter which Party the perpetrator belonged to: hold him accountable.  (The Rule of Law is a pillar of conservative philosophy.)

    But I’ve only read the claim that it broke some law. No facts to support the accusation. I would need a trustworthy lawyer, like Jonathan Turley, to weigh in on it.

    • #7
  8. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    How would the court order be enforced? @hoyacon

    • #8
  9. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    But I’ve only read the claim that it broke some law. No facts to support the accusation. I would need a trustworthy lawyer, like Jonathan Turley, to weigh in on it.

    •  

    I bet he will, but the Super Bowl might slow things down. Maybe it will be addressed in the President’s interview there tomorrow.

    • #9
  10. DonG (¡Afuera!) Coolidge
    DonG (¡Afuera!)
    @DonG

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    On behalf of all conservatives, we are in favor of transparency, accountability, and good governance.  This data mining addresses all three.

    • #10
  11. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    IANAL, has anyone here read the material presented to the court that might describe the “irreparable harm” context?

    • #11
  12. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    IANAL, has anyone here read the material presented to the court that might describe the “irreparable harm” context?

    I think it might have something to do with the fact that the data might contain information on crimes that could send Federal employees to jail. Definitely “irreparable harm,” even though the harm might be deserved.

    • #12
  13. Columbo Member
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    This needs to go to the SCOTUS.  Are there any areas of the Executive branch of government that are prohibited from POTUS purview?

    • #13
  14. Columbo Member
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Continued judge shopping will find federal judges on each side of the issue … https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-judge-rules-not-immediately-block-doge-access-labor-department-systems

    This stalemate must be decided by SCOTUS.

    • #14
  15. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    Bob Thompson: Is there any supervision at all of the federal court system?

    Other than the court appeals process, no.

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    How would the court order be enforced? @ hoyacon

    The American system of government depends a great deal on each branch of government acting in good faith while zealously asserting its own realm of power, as well as general public confidence that those branches of government are doing so.

    A court claiming that the executive (administrative) branch of government cannot access the administrative information on which the administrative branch makes its administrative decisions, is not acting in good faith. The court risks undermining the basic structure of the government (who supervises the administration of the administrative information?), and risks undermining public confidence in the authority of the courts. 

    I did not hunt down the original source material, but just in case the decision is based on a claim that DOGE workers are not entitled to access executive branch information because the DOGE workers are not real government employees, I note that the national government uses a lot of contractors, which use would then have to be similarly questioned. 

    Although there is some doubt about whether President Jackson really said something like “The Court has made its decision, now let them enforce it,” a court making decisions outside its realm of power risks getting that type of response. 

    • #15
  16. OldPhil Coolidge
    OldPhil
    @OldPhil

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):
    I did not hunt down the original source material, but just in case the decision is based on a claim that DOGE workers are not entitled to access executive branch information because the DOGE workers are not real government employees, I note that the national government uses a lot of contractors, which use would then have to be similarly questioned. 

    Here’s a very interesting article about the genesis of DOGE; it came from an Obama administration creation.

    The Dirty Secret of DOGE: Dems Built It – HotAir

    Trump took an agency launched by Barack Obama in 2014 called the US Digital Service and renamed it the US DOGE Service, and made Musk a special adviser to it.

    • #16
  17. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    The DOGE battles will be fascinating. People dislike being startled more than anything else in life. DOGE has startled the entire world. They will be stopped in some areas they go into, and they will make some honest mistakes in others. But they will get a lot done.

    Every thinking person on the planet knows this combing through the executive branch accounts has to happen. It’s sort of like zero-based budgeting. When an organization, even if just on theoretical basis, zeros out every single account, then frames practical objectives, then constructs a budget completely from scratch, there is much to be gained, both fiscally and psychologically.

    Our national annual debit and our accumulated debt are unsustainable. If our creditors want us to be solvent three, five, or ten years from now, they know this DOGE process has to go forward. The U.S. economy can expand infinitely, I believe, but not the federal government.

    • #17
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Our national annual debit and our accumulated debt are unsustainable. If our creditors want us to be solvent three, five, or ten years from now, they know this DOGE process has to go forward. The U.S. economy can expand infinitely, I believe, but not the federal government. 

    This is really good. 18 minutes.

     

     

     

    • #18
  19. Subcomandante America Member
    Subcomandante America
    @TheReticulator

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    •  

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    How would the court order be enforced? @ hoyacon

    Biden flouted Supreme Court rulings on student loan giveaways.  Hillary Clinton flouted federal court rulings on the handling of emails. Maybe we should be the Uniparty and do like they did. 

    • #19
  20. Joker Member
    Joker
    @Joker

    Any department in an organization can be audited to determine whether it, and its individual managers, are spending money effectively. Management evaluates department priorities and the personnel making spending decisions. Priorities may be wrong and individuals may be spending improperly or unwisely. Maybe criminally, as was mentioned. You cannot evaluate any of this without information. Not personal info like individual tax returns. But information concerning what was spent by whom on what while on the clock is essential.

    If somebody tells the CFO that he can’t see some financial information, he is dismissed.

    It’s a little late to fire Blinkin, but he’d never survive the US AID mess in the private sector.

     

    • #20
  21. Yarob Coolidge
    Yarob
    @Yarob

    Bob Thompson: Buying into a tenuous, one might say bull**** claim of “irreparable harm,” a leftist Obama appointee serving in the Southern District of New York blocked access to Treasury systems and demanded Trump’s audit team “immediately destroy any and all copies of material downloaded from the Treasury Department’s records and systems, if any.”

    Yes, the federal district judge in question, Paul A. Engelmayer, is clearly a Deep Stater or a progressive or a commie or something else we don’t like. According to the list of prominent cases noted in his Wikipedia entry:

    • In 2012, in American Freedom Defense Initiative v. Metropolitan Transit Authority, Engelmayer held that the MTA violated the First Amendment in refusing to allow a pro-Israel advertisement to appear on New York City subways and buses.
    • In 2015, in a closely watched action for injunctive relief, Amarin Pharma, Inc. v. U.S. Food & Drug Administration, Engelmayer held that the First Amendment bars the Food and Drug Administration from prosecuting a pharmaceutical manufacturer for misbranding, where the manufacturer’s conduct consisted only of truthful speech marketing an off-label use of an FDA-approved product.
    • In 2017, Engelmayer granted summary judgment in favor of parolee John Doe and his family, whose due process claims alleged that five New York State parole officials had wrongly separated Doe from his wife and child for 13 months. He rejected the parole officials’ qualified immunity arguments.
    • In 2019, in Airbnb, Inc. v. City of New York, Engelmayer enjoined a New York City ordinance that required home-sharing companies to turn over voluminous data monthly about hosts, finding it facially invalid under the Fourth Amendment. Calling the scale of the required monthly productions breathtaking and unprecedented, he wrote: “The city has not cited any decision suggesting that the governmental appropriation of private business records on such a scale, unsupported by individualized suspicion or any tailored justification, qualifies as a reasonable search and seizure.” He added: “An attempt by a municipality in an era before electronic data storage to compel an entire industry monthly to copy and produce its records as to all local customers would have been unthinkable under the Fourth Amendment.”
    • In 2019, in a ruling on a Freedom of Information Act request, Engelmayer ordered the U.S. Departments of State and Defense each to process at least 5,000 pages per month of materials relating to the killing of Saudi journalist and U.S. resident Jamal Khashoggi. Rejecting the agencies’ request for a slower pace of processing, he said the request concerned “a matter of exceptional public importance and obvious and unusual time sensitivity”.
    • In 2019, Engelmayer invalidated a 2019 rule that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services had promulgated to define the statutory conscience rights of federally funded health care entities and providers. The rule superseded a narrower 2011 rule, adding broadened definitions, new compliance regulations, and a new enforcement mechanism. On a challenge brought by states and cities led by New York State, Engelmayer held that HHS had violated the Administrative Procedure Act. The agency had no authority to impose major portions of the rule, he held, and its stated justification for the new rule-making “in the first place—a purported ‘significant increase’ in civilian complaints relating to the conscience provisions—was factually untrue.”
    • #21
  22. Subcomandante America Member
    Subcomandante America
    @TheReticulator

    When there is a conflict between verifiable information and the voices in my head, I have to give precedence to the voices in my head. 

    • #22
  23. Tex929rr Coolidge
    Tex929rr
    @Tex929rr

    Columbo (View Comment):

    Continued judge shopping will find federal judges on each side of the issue … https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-judge-rules-not-immediately-block-doge-access-labor-department-systems

    This stalemate must be decided by SCOTUS.

    I wonder how the Dread Coward Roberts is viewing all this.  If he thinks DJT is truly leading an enduring movement maybe he will overcome his normal tendency to split the baby, and do some good.

    I loom forward to many dissenting losing side opinions from the leftie SCOTUS girls.

    • #23
  24. Subcomandante America Member
    Subcomandante America
    @TheReticulator

    Here is a link to the Engelmayer ruling:

    https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/myvmbzdenpr/02082025doge_order.pdf

    I found these to be the most interesting words in it:

    the defendants are (i) restrained from granting access to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information of payees, other than to civil servants with a need for access to perform their job duties within the Bureau of Fiscal Services who have passed all background checks and security clearances and taken all information security training called for in federal statutes and Treasury Department regulations; (ii) restrained from granting access to all political appointees, special government employees, and government employees detailed from an agency outside the Treasury Department, to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information of payees; and (iii) ordered to direct any person prohibited above from having access to such information, records and systems but who has had access to such information, records, and systems since January 20, 2025, to immediately destroy any and all copies of material downloaded from the Treasury Department’s records and

    I wonder if Congress would have to take action to turn Musk’s employees into people who should have access to the information.

    • #24
  25. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):
    Although there is some doubt about whether President Jackson really said something like “The Court has made its decision, now let them enforce it,” a court making decisions outside its realm of power risks getting that type of response. 

    I used that title to challenge some of those schooled in this modern period on their civic knowledge. Maybe they would look it up.

    • #25
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    However, upon reading this, I did wonder what the conservative reaction to some of this data mining would be had Biden done it.

    •  

    Is there any data accumulated within the Executive Branch that is not accessible to the President?

    It is supposed to be. Except in the fever dreams of Federal Circuit Court judges, I guess.

    These are District judges, aren’t they?  They really only have authority within their district, and that only until a higher Circuit court or SCOTUS reverses them.

    • #26
  27. Subcomandante America Member
    Subcomandante America
    @TheReticulator

    This XTweet from Elon Musk is interesting. I’m not sure if he’s talking about the same database, though, as the one the restraining order applies to:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1888314848477376744

    .

    • #27
  28. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Subcomandante America (View Comment):

    Here is a link to the Engelmayer ruling:

    https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/myvmbzdenpr/02082025doge_order.pdf

    I found these to be the most interesting words in it:

    the defendants are (i) restrained from granting access to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information of payees, other than to civil servants with a need for access to perform their job duties within the Bureau of Fiscal Services who have passed all background checks and security clearances and taken all information security training called for in federal statutes and Treasury Department regulations; (ii) restrained from granting access to all political appointees, special government employees, and government employees detailed from an agency outside the Treasury Department, to any Treasury Department payment record, payment systems, or any other data systems maintained by the Treasury Department containing personally identifiable information and/or confidential financial information of payees; and (iii) ordered to direct any person prohibited above from having access to such information, records and systems but who has had access to such information, records, and systems since January 20, 2025, to immediately destroy any and all copies of material downloaded from the Treasury Department’s records and

    I wonder if Congress would have to take action to turn Musk’s employees into people who should have access to the information.

    US Constitution, Article I, section 9:

    No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

     

     

    So where’s the privacy right?

     

    • #28
  29. Subcomandante America Member
    Subcomandante America
    @TheReticulator

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    So where’s the privacy right?

    Check out the Musk Xtweet, too.  

    • #29
  30. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Bob Thompson: A federal judge issued an order Saturday that purports to not only stop the US DOGE Service, which is part of the Executive Office of the President, from accessing data on federal payments but also prohibits Treasury officials from accessing the system managed by that agency.

    My friends, we are at war. This is simple.

    “Such-and-Such Federal Judge has blocked the Treasury Department from accessing their systems. Therefore, no US government payments will be made. Sorry about the Social Security payment, Granny. We’ll try to catch you up after this judge’s order is reversed. Although, the longer it takes, the longer will be the backlog.

    “If you would like to share your opinion, here is his e-mail address and the e-mail addresses of those who are able to reverse his order. Oh, and here is his home address, in case you want to protest his actions.”

    The Progressives protest outside the homes of judges, it’s only fair that people who are affected by his actions be able to protest those actions.

    • #30
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