Should we wake the President?

 

Charlie Cooke at NRO has a Corner post detailing discussions within the White House advocating preemptive pardons for Biden allies. Perhaps most curious, however, is that Mr. Biden is not involved in those discussions at this point. This got me thinking…

Obviously, the constitutional pardon power is exclusive to the President and is generally unreviewable. But what happens to a pardon if it can be argued that the president didn’t understand what he was doing or was incapable of making the decision? Do we even know whether Mr. Biden knows he pardoned Hunter? Should the judges in Hunter’s matters ask for a sworn statement from Mr. Biden?

In most areas of the law, incapacity is grounds for voiding contracts, wills, etc. I can’t imagine that pardons should be any different just because someone had access to the seal and auto-pen. It’s not hard to imagine staffers shoving papers in front of Biden for him to sign on January 19. Is it too much to imagine him having little or no idea what he’s signing?

Seems possible to me. What do you all think?

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  1. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    I like it.

    “Here’s your menu for next week with extra ice cream, Mr. President. Just sign right here.”

    • #1
  2. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Arahant (View Comment):

    I like it.

    “Here’s your menu for next week with extra ice cream, Mr. President. Just sign right here.”

    Except on January 19, the menu would just be for the next DAY.

    • #2
  3. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    I like it.

    “Here’s your menu for next week with extra ice cream, Mr. President. Just sign right here.”

    Except on January 19, the menu would just be for the next DAY.

    But will Joe know that?

    • #3
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Arahant (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    I like it.

    “Here’s your menu for next week with extra ice cream, Mr. President. Just sign right here.”

    Except on January 19, the menu would just be for the next DAY.

    But will Joe know that?

    Probably not.  They could have told him some time ago that he’d already served two terms.  Although then it might have been more difficult to get him to sign things.

    • #4
  5. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    The 25th is available,   and I think a quick impeachment would be delightful.  Otherwise,  his handlers have the full power of the presidency.

    • #5
  6. EJHill Staff
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    There is an office in the DOJ dedicated to reviewing clemency cases. The Office of the Pardon Attorney reviews and prepares all the paperwork the president eventually signs. The current Pardon Attorney is Elizabeth Oyer.

    • #6
  7. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    EJHill (View Comment):

    There is an office in the DOJ dedicated to reviewing clemency cases. The Office of the Pardon Attorney reviews and prepares all the paperwork the president eventually signs. The current Pardon Attorney is Elizabeth Oyer.

    Thanks—this is good to know. Do we know the dynamics of the office? Does she have direct access to the president? I would assume the White House Counsel’s office drafts the things for Oyer to review. Would she know whether Biden is actually on board?

    • #7
  8. EJHill Staff
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Justin Other Lawyer: Do we know the dynamics of the office? Does she have direct access to the president? I would assume the White House Counsel’s office drafts the things for Oyer to review. Would she know whether Biden is actually on board?

    From their website:

    The Office of the Pardon Attorney is entrusted with the responsibility of administering the executive clemency process, in accordance with longstanding federal regulations codified at 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.35, 0.36, and 1.1 – 1.11. The Office receives, reviews, and investigates applications for executive clemency and provides advice and recommendations to the President. The Office is led by the Pardon Attorney, a career senior executive, and is supported by approximately 40 attorney and non-attorney staff. The Office is nonpolitical and operates under the general oversight of the Deputy Attorney General. For over 130 years, Presidents have relied on the Office to support the exercise of the constitutional clemency power by providing neutral advice and expertise. The Office also prepares the documents the President signs when granting clemency and notifies applicants when the President has made a decision to grant or deny clemency. 

    • #8
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer: Do we know the dynamics of the office? Does she have direct access to the president? I would assume the White House Counsel’s office drafts the things for Oyer to review. Would she know whether Biden is actually on board?

    From their website:

    The Office of the Pardon Attorney is entrusted with the responsibility of administering the executive clemency process, in accordance with longstanding federal regulations codified at 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.35, 0.36, and 1.1 – 1.11. The Office receives, reviews, and investigates applications for executive clemency and provides advice and recommendations to the President. The Office is led by the Pardon Attorney, a career senior executive, and is supported by approximately 40 attorney and non-attorney staff. The Office is nonpolitical and operates under the general oversight of the Deputy Attorney General. For over 130 years, Presidents have relied on the Office to support the exercise of the constitutional clemency power by providing neutral advice and expertise. The Office also prepares the documents the President signs when granting clemency and notifies applicants when the President has made a decision to grant or deny clemency.

    Is there anything that says the president MUST USE the Pardon Attorney etc?

    • #9
  10. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Is there anything that says the president MUST USE the Pardon Attorney etc?

    And did he do so for Hunter’s pardon?

    • #10
  11. Nohaaj Coolidge
    Nohaaj
    @Nohaaj

    Arahant (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Is there anything that says the president MUST USE the Pardon Attorney etc?

    And did he do so for Hunter’s pardon?

    Lol,  it is cute that you asked that question.

    I doubt the pardon attorney’s office was even informed that Biden was going to issue an11 year preemptive pardon for his bag man.

    • #11
  12. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    I like it.

    “Here’s your menu for next week with extra ice cream, Mr. President. Just sign right here.”

    Except on January 19, the menu would just be for the next DAY.

    Like he’d notice the issue.

    • #12
  13. John H. Member
    John H.
    @JohnH

    As far as I can tell from a very casual look at its website, the Office of the Pardon Attorney receives, filters, and perfects petitions from below, not above. That is, if poor ol’ you have been convicted or accused of something, or think you are about to be, you make your “case” to this office, which may then forward it to the President. 

    It could work in the other direction, I suppose. The President may ask the office for an opinion. 

    • #13
  14. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    John H. (View Comment):

    As far as I can tell from a very casual look at its website, the Office of the Pardon Attorney receives, filters, and perfects petitions from below, not above. That is, if poor ol’ you have been convicted or accused of something, or think you are about to be, you make your “case” to this office, which may then forward it to the President.

    It could work in the other direction, I suppose. The President may ask the office for an opinion.

    Or to provide appropriate language. It can’t be easy to phrase the pardon for a blanket, after all.

    • #14
  15. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    There is an office in the DOJ dedicated to reviewing clemency cases. The Office of the Pardon Attorney reviews and prepares all the paperwork the president eventually signs. The current Pardon Attorney is Elizabeth Oyer.

    Thanks—this is good to know. Do we know the dynamics of the office? Does she have direct access to the president? I would assume the White House Counsel’s office drafts the things for Oyer to review. Would she know whether Biden is actually on board?

    And how would Ms. Oyer know if the papers that come to her for review were drafted by someone who told the President he was signing a letter to Santa?

    What if they try to draft a pardon for every violation of immigration law? Another for every corrupt politician in Milwaukee and Philadelphia for vote rigging? And here is a tough legal issue: could they draft a pardon for every outstanding traffic or parking violation in DC by WH staff or does DC’s home rule charter bar that? What about those on the Epstein Island visitor list? 

    This could be a great movie comedy storyline–hijinx by cynical corrupt staff selling pardons from a cognitively impaired president in his last days in office trying to slip the docs past the last honest staffer…

    • #15
  16. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    There is an office in the DOJ dedicated to reviewing clemency cases. The Office of the Pardon Attorney reviews and prepares all the paperwork the president eventually signs. The current Pardon Attorney is Elizabeth Oyer.

    Thanks—this is good to know. Do we know the dynamics of the office? Does she have direct access to the president? I would assume the White House Counsel’s office drafts the things for Oyer to review. Would she know whether Biden is actually on board?

    And how would Ms. Oyer know if the papers that come to her for review were drafted by someone who told the President he was signing a letter to Santa?

    What if they try to draft a pardon for every violation of immigration law? Another for every corrupt politician in Milwaukee and Philadelphia for vote rigging? And here is a tough legal issue: could they draft a pardon for every outstanding traffic or parking violation in DC by WH staff or does DC’s home rule charter bar that? What about those on the Epstein Island visitor list?

    This could be a great movie comedy storyline–hijinx by cynical corrupt staff selling pardons from a cognitively impaired president in his last days in office trying to slip the docs past the last honest staffer…

    Too soon.

    • #16
  17. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    Arahant (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Is there anything that says the president MUST USE the Pardon Attorney etc?

    And did he do so for Hunter’s pardon?

    This is something I think Oyer should testify to Congress about. 

    • #17
  18. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    This could be a great movie comedy storyline–hijinx by cynical corrupt staff selling pardons from a cognitively impaired president in his last days in office trying to slip the docs past the last honest staffer…

    Isn’t something like that how the reformation got started?

    • #18
  19. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    Justin Other Lawyer: Obviously, the constitutional pardon power is exclusive to the President and is generally unreviewable. … Should the judges in Hunter’s matters ask for a sworn statement from Mr. Biden?

    The power is what it is…as it should be (unless changed by proper Constitutional processes. Good luck with that.)

    Justin Other Lawyer: But what happens to a pardon if it can be argued that the president didn’t understand what he was doing or was incapable of making the decision? Do we even know whether Mr. Biden knows he pardoned Hunter?

    Irrelevant. This is what “you” get for pretending for four years that he was really fulfilling the duties of the office. Who knows how many nameless factions around him have access to the “seal and auto-pen”? Any of them can use powers in his name at will…and can/will do so until the end of the term.

    Justin Other Lawyer: It’s not hard to imagine staffers shoving papers in front of Biden for him to sign on January 19. Is it too much to imagine him having little or no idea what he’s signing?

    There was a docu-drama made about this years ago. The part of the staffers was combined into a single character named Radar O’Reilly:

    …what has been obvious for some time to most anyone willing to see but – as of late last evening (evidently) – is now just being openly rubbed in our faces to the cheers and giggles of a fully corrupted party: The oval office has been occupied since January 2021 by a hollow vessel happy to have the title but without an ounce of pride in the authority that goes with it and the uses of it done in his name by others…nameless, faceless others. (He has been mindlessly signing Executive Orders since his very first hours in office like Colonel Henry Blake initialing whatever papers Radar O’Reilly puts under his nose. His party cheered him on…embarrassments galore.)

     

    • #19
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    philo (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer: Obviously, the constitutional pardon power is exclusive to the President and is generally unreviewable. … Should the judges in Hunter’s matters ask for a sworn statement from Mr. Biden?

    The power is what it is…as it should be (unless changed by proper Constitutional processes. Good luck with that.)

    Justin Other Lawyer: But what happens to a pardon if it can be argued that the president didn’t understand what he was doing or was incapable of making the decision? Do we even know whether Mr. Biden knows he pardoned Hunter?

    Irrelevant. This is what “you” get for pretending for four years that he was really fulfilling the duties of the office. Who knows how many nameless factions around him have access to the “seal and auto-pen”? Any of them can use powers in his name at will…and can/will do so until the end of the term.

    Justin Other Lawyer: It’s not hard to imagine staffers shoving papers in front of Biden for him to sign on January 19. Is it too much to imagine him having little or no idea what he’s signing?

    There was a docu-drama made about this years ago. The part of the staffers was combined into a single character named Radar O’Reilly:

    …what has been obvious for some time to most anyone willing to see but – as of late last evening (evidently) – is now just being openly rubbed in our faces to the cheers and giggles of a fully corrupted party: The oval office has been occupied since January 2021 by a hollow vessel happy to have the title but without an ounce of pride in the authority that goes with it and the uses of it done in his name by others…nameless, faceless others. (He has been mindlessly signing Executive Orders since his very first hours in office like Colonel Henry Blake initialing whatever papers Radar O’Reilly puts under his nose. His party cheered him on…embarrassments galore.)

     

    I’ve said for years, even before Biden got to VP, that he only ever wanted the title(s), not the job(s).

    • #20
  21. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I’ve said for years, even before Biden got to VP, that he only ever wanted the title(s), not the job(s).

    Me, too, man. Me, too. No, not saying that. I mean, I want the title without the work. I definitely want a campaign without having to shake hands, for instance. Those people  might have germs.

    • #21
  22. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):

    philo (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer: Obviously, the constitutional pardon power is exclusive to the President and is generally unreviewable. … Should the judges in Hunter’s matters ask for a sworn statement from Mr. Biden?

    The power is what it is…as it should be (unless changed by proper Constitutional processes. Good luck with that.)

    Justin Other Lawyer: But what happens to a pardon if it can be argued that the president didn’t understand what he was doing or was incapable of making the decision? Do we even know whether Mr. Biden knows he pardoned Hunter?

    Irrelevant. This is what “you” get for pretending for four years that he was really fulfilling the duties of the office. Who knows how many nameless factions around him have access to the “seal and auto-pen”? Any of them can use powers in his name at will…and can/will do so until the end of the term.

    Justin Other Lawyer: It’s not hard to imagine staffers shoving papers in front of Biden for him to sign on January 19. Is it too much to imagine him having little or no idea what he’s signing?

    There was a docu-drama made about this years ago. The part of the staffers was combined into a single character named Radar O’Reilly:

    …what has been obvious for some time to most anyone willing to see but – as of late last evening (evidently) – is now just being openly rubbed in our faces to the cheers and giggles of a fully corrupted party: The oval office has been occupied since January 2021 by a hollow vessel happy to have the title but without an ounce of pride in the authority that goes with it and the uses of it done in his name by others…nameless, faceless others. (He has been mindlessly signing Executive Orders since his very first hours in office like Colonel Henry Blake initialing whatever papers Radar O’Reilly puts under his nose. His party cheered him on…embarrassments galore.)

     

    I’ve said for years, even before Biden got to VP, that he only ever wanted the title(s), not the job(s).

    You’ve been saying that for years, and you’ve been wrong about it for years.  Not 100 percent wrong; maybe more like 85 percent wrong.   Biden has always wanted power.  He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t.  He may never have learned the nuts and bolts of exercising power to the degree that Stalin did, and he certainly didn’t have the work ethic without which Stalin couldn’t have killed his millions, but he worked hard enough and got enough experience at lying and double dealing that you can’t say he only wanted the title.   

    • #22
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Arahant (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I’ve said for years, even before Biden got to VP, that he only ever wanted the title(s), not the job(s).

    Me, too, man. Me, too. No, not saying that. I mean, I want the title without the work. I definitely want a campaign without having to shake hands, for instance. Those people might have germs.

    Voter cooties!

    • #23
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    philo (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer: Obviously, the constitutional pardon power is exclusive to the President and is generally unreviewable. … Should the judges in Hunter’s matters ask for a sworn statement from Mr. Biden?

    The power is what it is…as it should be (unless changed by proper Constitutional processes. Good luck with that.)

    Justin Other Lawyer: But what happens to a pardon if it can be argued that the president didn’t understand what he was doing or was incapable of making the decision? Do we even know whether Mr. Biden knows he pardoned Hunter?

    Irrelevant. This is what “you” get for pretending for four years that he was really fulfilling the duties of the office. Who knows how many nameless factions around him have access to the “seal and auto-pen”? Any of them can use powers in his name at will…and can/will do so until the end of the term.

    Justin Other Lawyer: It’s not hard to imagine staffers shoving papers in front of Biden for him to sign on January 19. Is it too much to imagine him having little or no idea what he’s signing?

    There was a docu-drama made about this years ago. The part of the staffers was combined into a single character named Radar O’Reilly:

    …what has been obvious for some time to most anyone willing to see but – as of late last evening (evidently) – is now just being openly rubbed in our faces to the cheers and giggles of a fully corrupted party: The oval office has been occupied since January 2021 by a hollow vessel happy to have the title but without an ounce of pride in the authority that goes with it and the uses of it done in his name by others…nameless, faceless others. (He has been mindlessly signing Executive Orders since his very first hours in office like Colonel Henry Blake initialing whatever papers Radar O’Reilly puts under his nose. His party cheered him on…embarrassments galore.)

     

    I’ve said for years, even before Biden got to VP, that he only ever wanted the title(s), not the job(s).

    You’ve been saying that for years, and you’ve been wrong about it for years. Not 100 percent wrong; maybe more like 85 percent wrong. Biden has always wanted power. He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t. He may never have learned the nuts and bolts of exercising power to the degree that Stalin did, and he certainly didn’t have the work ethic without which Stalin couldn’t have killed his millions, but he worked hard enough and got enough experience at lying and double dealing that you can’t say he only wanted the title.

    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing.  He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed.  Staff does most of that anyway.

    • #24
  25. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing.  He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed.  Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power.  But the title alone is not enough.  

    • #25
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing. He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed. Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power. But the title alone is not enough.

    I’m pretty sure that nobody but the person with the title of President can issue pardons.

    • #26
  27. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing. He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed. Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power. But the title alone is not enough.

    I’m pretty sure that nobody but the person with the title of President can issue pardons.

    Governors can issue pardons for offenses under their state’s jurisdiction. I suspect this might not be uniform to all 50 states. We are like that.

    • #27
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing. He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed. Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power. But the title alone is not enough.

    I’m pretty sure that nobody but the person with the title of President can issue pardons.

    Governors can issue pardons for offenses under their state’s jurisdiction. I suspect this might not be uniform to all 50 states. We are like that.

    Same thing, though.  Whoever has the title Governor can do that, whether or not they are doing “the rest of the job,” whatever that is.

    • #28
  29. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing. He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed. Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power. But the title alone is not enough.

    I’m pretty sure that nobody but the person with the title of President can issue pardons.

    Governors can issue pardons for offenses under their state’s jurisdiction. I suspect this might not be uniform to all 50 states. We are like that.

    Same thing, though. Whoever has the title Governor can do that, whether or not they are doing “the rest of the job,” whatever that is.

    Whoever holds the office. 

    • #29
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    To the extent that power comes just from the title, then it’s still the same thing. He didn’t want to do the actual work of the job, such as putting together legislation and getting it passed. Staff does most of that anyway.

    Power never comes just from the title, though sometimes titles can be put to use in exercising power. But the title alone is not enough.

    I’m pretty sure that nobody but the person with the title of President can issue pardons.

    Governors can issue pardons for offenses under their state’s jurisdiction. I suspect this might not be uniform to all 50 states. We are like that.

    Same thing, though. Whoever has the title Governor can do that, whether or not they are doing “the rest of the job,” whatever that is.

    Whoever holds the office.

    Right.  And whoever holds the office, has the title.  And vice reversa.

    • #30
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