Binary Option: Anyone on the Public Right Publicly Not Supporting Trump is Supporting Harris

 

The simple binary outcome of this election is that either Trump or Harris will win. What we have, again, is many on what I am calling the Public Right declaring Trump unfit for office or that they will not vote for him. This helps Harris get elected. There is no squirming out of that. They can say they are being principled all they want to. It does not matter. They can sleep soundly at night, knowing their principles dictated helping Harris, who in theory, stands against everything in which they believe, win.

Thus, I will lay part of the blame for a Trump loss at the feet of the Public Right who did not support him. These include all the Never Trumpers at NRO, and anyone with any voice, any sense of public communications. In the battleground states, a few votes may make the difference. Those few votes could well be swayed by hearing the anti-Trump Public Right come around to supporting Trump.

It is clear to me that those not supporting Trump on the Public Right just don’t care. They don’t care what Biden has done to the nation, they don’t care what Harris will do. It’s all OK. No worries. All that is important is they feel good about themselves. Ironically, this is just like the voters on the left. All that matters to them is feeling good about themselves.

Maybe the anti-Trump Public Right is not so on the Right after all.

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  1. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

     

    Anyone trying to turn this into a right-wing ‘base” election is writing a prescription for defeat.

    Absolutely. Does the Trump base understand this?

    Since we need everyone to win, how does the other side think they will win in the future by pissing off Trump supporters now? Far too many insults have been tossed our way by pundits, politicians, and Republicans. How will they win by normalizing only voting if one’s preferred candidate wins? 

    • #61
  2. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Anyone trying to turn this into a right-wing ‘base” election is writing a prescription for defeat.

    Absolutely. Does the Trump base understand this?

    Seems to me a big part of the message – perhaps most or even all of it – is something like “We voted for your McCain and Romney, now it’s your turn to vote for our Trump. And if you won’t, it’s ‘screw YOU,’ not us.”

    What a bizarre message. Who is it that wanted you to vote for McCain and Romney? Not me. Frankly I don’t understand this, maybe because I vote based on my own judgement and assessment of the situation. I don’t vote a certain way because I’m told to (and who is this that is doing the telling?). Your mileage may vary.

    Republican Party, not you personally.

    • #62
  3. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s pretty simple math, the only reason someone wouldn’t understand it is if they are even simpler.

    Not voting for the Republican, WHOEVER it is, in ANY election, is a net +1 for the Democrat, WHOEVER it is.

    Actually voting for the Democrat, as some self-proclaimed Republicans have done, is a net +2 for the Democrat.

     

     

    And, a reminder:

     

    A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. A vote for Harris is a Vote for Harris. Not voting, or voting 3rd party is not voting for either. You don’t know Math. I use Math every day in my profession.

    It is kinda like standing athwart history sitting this one out.

    • #63
  4. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    I truly believe most Republican candidates would have done better than Trump. He barely beat the most hated woman in America (Hillary), lost to a serial loser and brain dead idiot (Biden). The Party did not do well under him in 2018, 2020, and 2022.

    Trump is truly the most deeply loved person in American politics. He is also the most deeply hated. On net, in the general populace ( including non Republicans), I am not sure if he pulls in more people to vote for him or pulls in more people to vote against him. Strong in the Republican party, but not a strong general election candidate – at all. Nominating him was suicide.

    Nominating Nikki might have been suicide as well. I’m reasonably sure that there were more people who would not have voted for her than just myself and Rand Paul.

    Maybe. And would Bryan be insisting, as he does now, that it’s a binary choice, and not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris? That those who won’t vote for Haley don’t care about the country, or how Biden and Harris have hurt it?

    I doubt it. The real message is very simple – vote the way I want you to vote, or you stink. Great message. Very compelling.

    I think he would actually be consistent and say that “not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris”. He might also say that the differences between Harris and Haley are fewer and less than the differences between Harris and Trump. 

    • #64
  5. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s pretty simple math, the only reason someone wouldn’t understand it is if they are even simpler.

    Not voting for the Republican, WHOEVER it is, in ANY election, is a net +1 for the Democrat, WHOEVER it is.

    Actually voting for the Democrat, as some self-proclaimed Republicans have done, is a net +2 for the Democrat.

     

     

    And, a reminder:

     

    A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. A vote for Harris is a Vote for Harris. Not voting, or voting 3rd party is not voting for either. You don’t know Math. I use Math every day in my profession.

    It’s more like scales in balance. One hundred votes — imagine votes have mass — on each side with the sides representing Trump and Harris. Take one from Trump and picture what happens. 

    Types of Kitchen Scales That Help Enhance Your Culinary Talents

    • #65
  6. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    I truly believe most Republican candidates would have done better than Trump. He barely beat the most hated woman in America (Hillary), lost to a serial loser and brain dead idiot (Biden). The Party did not do well under him in 2018, 2020, and 2022.

    Trump is truly the most deeply loved person in American politics. He is also the most deeply hated. On net, in the general populace ( including non Republicans), I am not sure if he pulls in more people to vote for him or pulls in more people to vote against him. Strong in the Republican party, but not a strong general election candidate – at all. Nominating him was suicide.

    Most haters will hate anyone who promotes our policies and beats them. I will not base my vote on drying to appease the left. I want to destroy and bury their cancerous ideology in the ash heap of history.

    • #66
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens. 

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

     

    • #67
  8. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Stad (View Comment):

    To those folks who think they’re taking a principled stand by not voting for Trump:

    Is it principled to allow evil to flourish? Because if the Democrats win, you can bet we’ll be living in a deeper Hell than we are now . . .

    Bingo

    • #68
  9. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    I truly believe most Republican candidates would have done better than Trump. He barely beat the most hated woman in America (Hillary), lost to a serial loser and brain dead idiot (Biden). The Party did not do well under him in 2018, 2020, and 2022.

    Trump is truly the most deeply loved person in American politics. He is also the most deeply hated. On net, in the general populace ( including non Republicans), I am not sure if he pulls in more people to vote for him or pulls in more people to vote against him. Strong in the Republican party, but not a strong general election candidate – at all. Nominating him was suicide.

    Nominating Nikki might have been suicide as well. I’m reasonably sure that there were more people who would not have voted for her than just myself and Rand Paul.

    Maybe. And would Bryan be insisting, as he does now, that it’s a binary choice, and not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris? That those who won’t vote for Haley don’t care about the country, or how Biden and Harris have hurt it?

    I doubt it. The real message is very simple – vote the way I want you to vote, or you stink. Great message. Very compelling.

    I think he would actually be consistent and say that “not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris”. He might also say that the differences between Harris and Haley are fewer and less than the differences between Harris and Trump.

    I’d say the opposite about the differences, but that’s a different post. We disagree about that, but that’s fine.

    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s  consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    • #69
  10. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    I truly believe most Republican candidates would have done better than Trump. He barely beat the most hated woman in America (Hillary), lost to a serial loser and brain dead idiot (Biden). The Party did not do well under him in 2018, 2020, and 2022.

    Trump is truly the most deeply loved person in American politics. He is also the most deeply hated. On net, in the general populace ( including non Republicans), I am not sure if he pulls in more people to vote for him or pulls in more people to vote against him. Strong in the Republican party, but not a strong general election candidate – at all. Nominating him was suicide.

    Nominating Nikki might have been suicide as well. I’m reasonably sure that there were more people who would not have voted for her than just myself and Rand Paul.

    Maybe. And would Bryan be insisting, as he does now, that it’s a binary choice, and not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris? That those who won’t vote for Haley don’t care about the country, or how Biden and Harris have hurt it?

    I doubt it. The real message is very simple – vote the way I want you to vote, or you stink. Great message. Very compelling.

    I think he would actually be consistent and say that “not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris”. He might also say that the differences between Harris and Haley are fewer and less than the differences between Harris and Trump.

    I’d say the opposite about the differences, but that’s a different post. We disagree about that, but that’s fine.

    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    You actually think that Trump and Harris are less different than Haley and Harris? 

    • #70
  11. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

    No analogy is perfect, so you may feel free to nitpick. 

    • #71
  12. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

    No analogy is perfect, so you may feel free to nitpick.

    OK, let’s do it.  You said “take one from Trump.”  How do you decide who is in the “from Trump” category?   Is Chuck Schumer in that category?   

    • #72
  13. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    You are absolutely right, given the position we are in.

    But…

    We shouldn’t be in this position.   Given the state of  world affairs and the domestic economy plus immigration, we should be running away with this.   And it’s my contention that with one of several other candidates at the head of the ticket we would be.    But no.    Early in the process any rational, evidence based discussion of the Trump presidency and his election prospects was stymied by the Only Trump crowd who wanted to make themselves feel better about their singleminded loyalty to Trump.    They put aside any consideration of what might be best for America.   They put aside what Trump’s actual record looks like.   They dismissed the fact that he is held in contempt by large swathes of the electorate.   It was Trump or bust…largely to prove to themselves that 2016 wasn’t a fluke.
    So yeah…given where we are you are right.   But we shouldn’t be here in the first place and it’s the Only Trump faction that brought us here.

    • #73
  14. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

    No analogy is perfect, so you may feel free to nitpick.

    OK, let’s do it. You said “take one from Trump.” How do you decide who is in the “from Trump” category? Is Chuck Schumer in that category?

    Trump is not a category. The point of my comment was to illustrate simply the effect of not voting for Trump. It is not a vote for Harris, but can effectively give her the Presidency. But if you want to play silly word games, go ahead and play . . . with yourself. 

    • #74
  15. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

    No analogy is perfect, so you may feel free to nitpick.

    OK, let’s do it. You said “take one from Trump.” How do you decide who is in the “from Trump” category? Is Chuck Schumer in that category?

    Trump is not a category. The point of my comment was to illustrate simply the effect of not voting for Trump. It is not a vote for Harris, but can effectively give her the Presidency. But if you want to play silly word games, go ahead and play . . . with yourself.

    I was not the person who came up with the mathematical formula with undefined terms.   Following the lead of the OP, I’d say it’s a binary.  If you didn’t denounce that formula for its undefined terms, you support it.   

    • #75
  16. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
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    Django (View Comment):

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    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    I truly believe most Republican candidates would have done better than Trump. He barely beat the most hated woman in America (Hillary), lost to a serial loser and brain dead idiot (Biden). The Party did not do well under him in 2018, 2020, and 2022.

    Trump is truly the most deeply loved person in American politics. He is also the most deeply hated. On net, in the general populace ( including non Republicans), I am not sure if he pulls in more people to vote for him or pulls in more people to vote against him. Strong in the Republican party, but not a strong general election candidate – at all. Nominating him was suicide.

    Nominating Nikki might have been suicide as well. I’m reasonably sure that there were more people who would not have voted for her than just myself and Rand Paul.

    Maybe. And would Bryan be insisting, as he does now, that it’s a binary choice, and not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris? That those who won’t vote for Haley don’t care about the country, or how Biden and Harris have hurt it?

    I doubt it. The real message is very simple – vote the way I want you to vote, or you stink. Great message. Very compelling.

    I think he would actually be consistent and say that “not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris”. He might also say that the differences between Harris and Haley are fewer and less than the differences between Harris and Trump.

    I’d say the opposite about the differences, but that’s a different post. We disagree about that, but that’s fine.

    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    You actually think that Trump and Harris are less different than Haley and Harris?

    Yes. But that’s a whole other subject…

    • #76
  17. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

    No analogy is perfect, so you may feel free to nitpick.

    OK, let’s do it. You said “take one from Trump.” How do you decide who is in the “from Trump” category? Is Chuck Schumer in that category?

    Trump is not a category. The point of my comment was to illustrate simply the effect of not voting for Trump. It is not a vote for Harris, but can effectively give her the Presidency. But if you want to play silly word games, go ahead and play . . . with yourself.

    I was not the person who came up with the mathematical formula with undefined terms. Following the lead of the OP, I’d say it’s a binary. If you didn’t denounce that formula for its undefined terms, you support it.

    As usual, you wrap yourself up in misunderstanding. I said nothing to dispute that the choice is binary. I was attempting to address the idea that not voting for Trump is a vote for Harris, a point I don’t agree with. If you don’t find my analogy persuasive, then ignore it. I don’t care to waste time discussing your nonsense about undefined terms. 

    • #77
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Django (View Comment):
    As usual, you wrap yourself up in misunderstanding. I said nothing to dispute that the choice is binary. I was attempting to address the idea that not voting for Trump is a vote for Harris, a point I don’t agree with. If you don’t find my analogy persuasive, then ignore it. I don’t care to waste time discussing your nonsense about undefined terms. 

    I don’t blame you.  Maybe we’ll have to wait for the inventor of the mathematical formula with undefined terms to deal with it.   

    • #78
  19. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s  consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    No it would still exist.  The contrast is much less in some ways.  I suspect Harris would be further ahead.  Haley appeals to a small amount of suburban republican voters.  It isn’t clear to me that those are the significant factor in this election.   Additionally she would be I suspect stronger on the pro-life side, which I would be in favor of,  thus the abortion issue would be more of a wedge against her than it is against Trump.   Elite Republicans love Haley but she has a pretty limited appeal outside of that group.

    It is a binary choice because Harris is actively lying about her positions.  She is going to rule as the most left wing president in US history.  Here is what the NT right is endorsing by endorsing Harris:

    1. Use of the Justice department to prosecute political enemies
    2. Use of the Administrative state more broadly to suppress dissent.
    3. Decriminalization and the mass importation of 10-20 million illegal immigrants many of whom do not have the nation’s best interest in mind.
    4. A continuation of the Obama doctrine which has lead to world Chaos.  (Obama doctrine is “Be nice to your enemies, and mean to your friends)
    5. A tacit embrace of Islamism.
    6. A tacit embrace of Antisemitism
    7. The hollowing out of US industry and the middle class in favor of global elites.
    8. The selective enforcement of laws which leads to more crime and a poorer quality of life.
    9. Gun confiscation
    10. Increased government control over markets to create a statist economy (a.k.a fascism)
    11. Continued mutilation of  children to support rabid gender ideology.
    12. Continued hostility to Judeo-Christian and western values.

    For all these reasons.  It should be very hard for a so called conservative to vote for Harris.  Essentially you have made a prudential calculation to accept all of this to settle an internal political score.    

    There are those that say because of J6 we can’t allow Trump to ever be president again.  This might have been a fair argument before seeing the 4 years of the Biden-Harris administration.  I would argue that what we have seen in terms of weaponization of the administrative state against disfavored political opponents is far more dangerous to the United States than J6 ever was.

    • #79
  20. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    No it would still exist. The contrast is much less in some ways. I suspect Harris would be further ahead. Haley appeals to a small amount of suburban republican voters. It isn’t clear to me that those are the significant factor in this election. Additionally she would be I suspect stronger on the pro-life side, which I would be in favor of, thus the abortion issue would be more of a wedge against her than it is against Trump. Elite Republicans love Haley but she has a pretty limited appeal outside of that group.

    It is a binary choice because Harris is actively lying about her positions. She is going to rule as the most left wing president in US history. Here is what the NT right is endorsing by endorsing Harris:

    1. Use of the Justice department to prosecute political enemies
    2. Use of the Administrative state more broadly to suppress dissent.
    3. Decriminalization and the mass importation of 10-20 million illegal immigrants many of whom do not have the nation’s best interest in mind.
    4. A continuation of the Obama doctrine which has lead to world Chaos. (Obama doctrine is “Be nice to your enemies, and mean to your friends)
    5. A tacit embrace of Islamism.
    6. A tacit embrace of Antisemitism
    7. The hollowing out of US industry and the middle class in favor of global elites.
    8. The selective enforcement of laws which leads to more crime and a poorer quality of life.
    9. Gun confiscation
    10. Increased government control over markets to create a statist economy (a.k.a fascism)
    11. Continued mutilation of children to support rabid gender ideology.
    12. Continued hostility to Judeo-Christian and western values.

    For all these reasons. It should be very hard for a so called conservative to vote for Harris. Essentially you have made a prudential calculation to accept all of this to settle an internal political score.

    There are those that say because of J6 we can’t allow Trump to ever be president again. This might have been a fair argument before seeing the 4 years of the Biden-Harris administration. I would argue that what we have seen in terms of weaponization of the administrative state against disfavored political opponents is far more dangerous to the United States than J6 ever was.

    You left an important item out of your list:  13. Continued inflation to make the rich richer and the unrich poorer.   

    • #80
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    If Trump loses, I blame Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries. DeSantis and Haley always had a better shot in the General.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense. The assumption seems to be that switching out Trump for Haley would not have cost any votes. Not true. A lot of Trump people simply would not have voted for Haley. They might have left the top slot blank or maybe not bothered to vote at all.

    What?? It wouldn’t have been a binary choice if Haley had won? By the “logic” of this post, if Haley had won and it was now a contest between Haley and Harris, then “a lot of Trump people,” as you refer to them, would be supporting Harris if they didn’t vote for Haley.

     

    And?

    And so just as Trump supporters might have their reasons for not voting for Haley, if she was the candidate, so Trump skeptics might have their reasons. Calling the election “binary” is an oversimplification – not all of us live in swing states, and some people might be single-issue voters whose concerns aren’t being addressed by either candidate. No doubt other voters have other reasons not to vote. But by all means, go on and insult them! Now that’s the way to persuade…

    You have a remarkable ability to hear things that aren’t being said. I haven’t insulted anyone. I just said that the assumption that substituting Haley for Trump would give better results in the general is wrong and I’m sick of hearing it. A man much smarter than I once said, “Look for the hidden assumption.” The assumption(s) here is that Haley would pick up NeverTrumpers and not lose anyone from Trump’s base. I think that’s a false assumption and I can name two voters who would not vote for Haley: Rand Paul and I. Paul put together a “NeverNikki” website describing why. Maybe it’s still out there though it is OBE now.

    I would have voted for DeSantis, but that also is OBE.

    Sorry – I wasn’t referring to you when I mentioned insults. I had in mind the items listed in the original post – they don’t care about the country, it’s all about feeling good about themselves, blah blah blah. I understand it’s just venting and anger, but it really does oversimplify the reasons one might sit out this election.

    I did not “insult” anyone. I stated a fact. Someone on the Public Right who comes out against Trump is supporting Harris. I don’t see what is so insulting about that.

    Read more carefully.

    I did not insult anyone. I stand by it. I believe that many on the Public Right are more interested in voting their feelings than the good of the country.

    • #81
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    Maybe. And would Bryan be insisting, as he does now, that it’s a binary choice, and not voting for Haley is the same as voting for Harris? That those who won’t vote for Haley don’t care about the country, or how Biden and Harris have hurt it?

    Well, I did not say that. I said that the Public Right being against Trump supports Harris. I did not mention voting. 

    I would, however say to anyone, that if you wanted Niki to win, then you should support her, same as for Trump.

    • #82
  23. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    Take one from Trump and picture what happens.

    In that case the OP title should have been, “Binary Option: Anyone who voted for Trump before and is publicly not supporting Trump now is Supporting Harris.”

     

     

    Nope. Not talking about votes. I am talking about people of the Public Right, i.e. pundits, political types, journalists, and so forth.

     

    • #83
  24. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    I’m afraid I don’t agree with you either about Bryan’s  consistency. I suspect that if Haley had been nominated, the “binary choice” would disappear. Which is fine, by the way – people should vote or not vote as they see fit. I will.

    Above I have spelled out I would be totally consistent.

    Now your choices are to admit you were wrong in your mind reading or to call me a liar. 

    Which is it going to be, Jean?

    • #84
  25. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Maybe the anti Trump Public Right is not so on the Right after all. 

    Maybe the problem lies with your definition of “the Right.” The term actually covers a wide range of opinions, some in obvious opposition to others. It has always been that way.

    I suspect your defintion of “the Right” can be summed up as, “Whatever Trump thinks.”

    Having said that, there truly are some whose hatred of Trump caused them to dump all their previous conservative principles. I have very little regard for them.

    • #85
  26. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    You are absolutely right, given the position we are in.

    But…

    We shouldn’t be in this position. Given the state of world affairs and the domestic economy plus immigration, we should be running away with this. And it’s my contention that with one of several other candidates at the head of the ticket we would be. But no. Early in the process any rational, evidence based discussion of the Trump presidency and his election prospects was stymied by the Only Trump crowd who wanted to make themselves feel better about their singleminded loyalty to Trump. They put aside any consideration of what might be best for America. They put aside what Trump’s actual record looks like. They dismissed the fact that he is held in contempt by large swathes of the electorate. It was Trump or bust…largely to prove to themselves that 2016 wasn’t a fluke.
    So yeah…given where we are you are right. But we shouldn’t be here in the first place and it’s the Only Trump faction that brought us here.

    No.

    It is the GOP and the Public Right who got us here. Three decades of taking the social conservatives for granted. Three decades of making promises they had no intention of keeping. Three decades of defeat after defeat. Even when the GOP held the House, the Senate, and the White House, they were unable to close the border. 

    No, this is not the fault of “Only Trump”. This is the fault of their betters, who have long made promises they failed to keep. Long taken them for granted. They plowed the fields. They planted the seeds. They provided the fertilizer and water. And they are appalled with their harvest. The GOP had decades to follow through. It failed. Now there is Trump. 

    Oh, and by the way, part of so many people hating Trump? Well, the GOPe and the Against Trump(tm) Public Right have done their best to make him hated. Instead of defending him, instead of supporting him, they attacked him.

    For instance National Review is Against Trump, despite the fact he was the most conservative administration since Reagan. Imagine if the Public Right had pulled behind Trump like they did Bush. 

    • #86
  27. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Maybe the anti Trump Public Right is not so on the Right after all.

    Maybe the problem lies with your definition of “the Right.” The term actually covers a wide range of opinions, some in obvious opposition to others. It has always been that way.

    I suspect your defintion [sic] of “the Right” can be summed up as, “Whatever Trump thinks.”

    Having said that, there truly are some whose hatred of Trump caused them to dump all their previous conservative principles. I have very little regard for them.

    You are doing a lot of mind reading here. I wish I could be as good at it.

    No, what I mean is that the Anti Trump Public Right, who espouses conservative ideals, is in fact supporting someone who is, as Raxxalan put it: 

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    . Here is what the NT right is endorsing by endorsing Harris:

    1. Use of the Justice department to prosecute political enemies
    2. Use of the Administrative state more broadly to suppress dissent.
    3. Decriminalization and the mass importation of 10-20 million illegal immigrants many of whom do not have the nation’s best interest in mind.
    4. A continuation of the Obama doctrine which has lead to world Chaos. (Obama doctrine is “Be nice to your enemies, and mean to your friends)
    5. A tacit embrace of Islamism.
    6. A tacit embrace of Antisemitism
    7. The hollowing out of US industry and the middle class in favor of global elites.
    8. The selective enforcement of laws which leads to more crime and a poorer quality of life.
    9. Gun confiscation
    10. Increased government control over markets to create a statist economy (a.k.a fascism)
    11. Continued mutilation of children to support rabid gender ideology.
    12. Continued hostility to Judeo-Christian and western values.

    I question anyone claiming to be a conservative or on the political right who is supporting these 12 things. Heck, I support things to the right of Trump. He is just he most conservative person in the race. 

     

    • #87
  28. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens
    • #88
  29. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    You are absolutely right, given the position we are in.

    But…

    We shouldn’t be in this position. Given the state of world affairs and the domestic economy plus immigration, we should be running away with this. And it’s my contention that with one of several other candidates at the head of the ticket we would be. But no. Early in the process any rational, evidence based discussion of the Trump presidency and his election prospects was stymied by the Only Trump crowd who wanted to make themselves feel better about their singleminded loyalty to Trump. They put aside any consideration of what might be best for America. They put aside what Trump’s actual record looks like. They dismissed the fact that he is held in contempt by large swathes of the electorate. It was Trump or bust…largely to prove to themselves that 2016 wasn’t a fluke.
    So yeah…given where we are you are right. But we shouldn’t be here in the first place and it’s the Only Trump faction that brought us here.

    No.

    It is the GOP and the Public Right who got us here. Three decades of taking the social conservatives for granted. Three decades of making promises they had no intention of keeping. Three decades of defeat after defeat. Even when the GOP held the House, the Senate, and the White House, they were unable to close the border.

    No, this is not the fault of “Only Trump”. This is the fault of their betters, who have long made promises they failed to keep. Long taken them for granted. They plowed the fields. They planted the seeds. They provided the fertilizer and water. And they are appalled with their harvest. The GOP had decades to follow through. It failed. Now there is Trump.

    Oh, and by the way, part of so many people hating Trump? Well, the GOPe and the Against Trump(tm) Public Right have done their best to make him hated. Instead of defending him, instead of supporting him, they attacked him.

    For instance National Review is Against Trump, despite the fact he was the most conservative administration since Reagan. Imagine if the Public Right had pulled behind Trump like they did Bush.

    This is true.    And I understand the impulse.    It explains 2016.    But there were other, better, solutions than Trump in 2024.   But Only Trump had the bit in their teeth and here we are.   We got stampeded by lawfare I to circling the wagons around Trump.    The Left WANTED to run against Trump.   The bait and switch with Biden was already in the works (Who decided on the pre-convention debate)  
    Going to vote straight Rep regardless.   Hoping for the best.

    But it didn’t have to be this way.   

    • #89
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s pretty simple math, the only reason someone wouldn’t understand it is if they are even simpler.

    Not voting for the Republican, WHOEVER it is, in ANY election, is a net +1 for the Democrat, WHOEVER it is.

    Actually voting for the Democrat, as some self-proclaimed Republicans have done, is a net +2 for the Democrat.

    And, a reminder:

    A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. A vote for Harris is a Vote for Harris. Not voting, or voting 3rd party is not voting for either. You don’t know Math. I use Math every day in my profession.

    Except it’s not just you voting, it’s millions of people.  And if you’re as good at math as you claim to be, you should be able to understand that not voting for Trump represents a +1 vote net change, as one vote for Harris was not cancelled out; while actually voting FOR Harris INSTEAD OF Trump represents a +2 vote change, since it takes away a vote FOR Trump AND adds a vote FOR Harris.  A total shift of 2, not just 1.

    • #90
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