A War Between Peoples (Part II)

 

Let’s set ourselves back a few years, shall we? Israel is established. It is a home for a population of refugees who’ve just been slaughtered on a world-unprecedented scale. They agree to a division of land, but the overwhelming reaction from the Arab population is to try to exterminate them (yes, “Arab.” The label “Palestinian” didn’t exist as a distinct ethnic group at that time). The fighters include Arab populations from villages and cities throughout the land. This was a peoples’ war then – every Jew was a target – man, woman and child.

The initial plan was to overwhelm Jewish settlements and exterminate their populations. A few places and peoples did not engage in this. Most prominent were the Bedouin and Druze who remain a central part of the State today – although as with any nomadic group in a modern society, the Bedouin have challenges. There was also a prominent village on the coast and Abu Ghosh (both populated, interestingly, by generally ‘less-Arab’ populations). Almost everyplace else – and with everyone else – extermination was the goal of the day. Again, it was a peoples’ war – not a war between armies. Jews near Arab villages were and are routinely attacked and massacred. Those who make the mistake of entering are murdered.

What is a reasonable response? Leave military villages everywhere to attack you at will. Leave your coastline populated by people who want you exterminated and can facilitate men and material from the sea?

No. If you want to survive, you drive some of that population out to establish militarily supportable areas. You have to. The alternative is death. You also establish a deterrent factor – responding to terrorism with a few raids that suggest that there will be a price for supporting genocide. Not a nice thing to do. Arguably unnecessary, but the argument could easily go the other way. Finally, you don’t stop the vast majority who flee (many of whom were told they’d come back to take Jewish lands and property once the massacre of Jews was complete.)

It sucks, but as a Jew in the region who wanted to survive, it was the only viable option. After all, the Arabs declared all Jews the enemy and joined in an attempt to follow up the Holocaust with version II – three years later. One of their leaders was the Mufti of Jerusalem, a confidant of Hitler who whipped the population up in an attempt to carry out his part of the final solution.

By the way, the hatred of peace was so strong that the only village on the coast that was willing to make peace (Jisr az Zarqa) still finds itself completely shut off from the rest of the Arab population, and today suffers very high rates of birth defects because nobody else will marry them.

Did Israel kill all the Arabs? No, not even close. Credible massacre victims number under 200. Did they drive all the Arabs out? Absolutely not. 20% of Israel’s population today is Arab. You will note that 0 – that’s ZERO – Jews were permitted to live in areas controlled by Arabs after 1948. This included ancient Jewish settlements that had had continual Jewish populations since the times of the Romans, like Hebron and central Jerusalem. ZERO Jews. Jews who even walked near the holiest site in Judaism were shot at from across the border. ZERO Jews are permitted to live in Palestinian areas today – but 20% of Israel is Arab.

With enemies like that, Israel was quite moderate in their expulsions. It was quite different than say:

  1. Arab expulsions of Jews (99.5% of Jews gone, 100% from Arab-controlled areas West of the Jordan River)
  2. Azerbaijani (92% Azeri) and Armenian (98% Armenian) mutual expulsions

Israel’s actions aren’t appalling. If we want to survive as a people – and I fully intend that we survive – we need to be able to protect ourselves from entire populations dedicated to our erasure.

To quote Golda Meir, “If we have to have a choice between dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image”

She also said, “When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.”

I don’t want this war. We don’t want this war. But peace won’t be the return of millions who want us dead.

Peace will be those millions – and the Arab nations who have refused to integrate them for generations – accepting that Israel will remain. Peace will be when Jews do not have to fear massacre every time they leave the gate open.

If you want Israel to prostrate itself before the Nakba, perhaps the Arab nations could prostrate themselves before the numerous pogroms they conducted over hundreds of years? No? Perhaps Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Egypt could acknowledge their sins in 1948, 67 and 73? No? Of course not, because the blame game only goes one way. The Arabs attempted genocide again and again and they failed. But their pride demands that we ask forgiveness.

My oldest is going into the army in a year and a half. My next three, a year and a half after that. I don’t want them risking their lives to occupy a ****hole like Gaza or Nablus (which was Shechem and houses a major Jewish pilgrimage site, but was renamed Flavius Neopolis by the Romans and drove out its last Jews in 1936). But they will risk their lives to protect their people from those who still dream of our extermination. I would love love love for that to mean that they are never deployed anywhere. But that isn’t going to be the reality. 70% of Palestinians think Oct 7th was the right things to do – not just justified, but the right call strategically. So my kids will risk their lives not because they want to live in Shechem but because they want to live in peace.

This exterminationalist attitude predates the State of Israel and is why Israel has to be so damned aggressive to defend itself.

Predates the State of Israel? Why, yes. Here’s a list of Arab atrocities against Jews during the 1800s. No Israel to blame. When will these countries and peoples acknowledge their sins? If they won’t, then don’t expect us to commit ethnic suicide by beating our chests and inviting them to overwhelm us with their numbers.

(By the way, the Druze committed one of those massacres and we are completely at peace with them today.)

▪ 1800: New decree adopted in Yemen, prohibiting Jews from wearing new or good clothes. Jews were forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were sometimes rounded up for long, naked marches through the Roob al Khali desert.

▪ 1805: 1st pogrom in Ottoman Algeria against the Jews of Algiers after a famine. French consul Dubois-Thainville saves 200 Jews by sheltering them in his consulate.

▪ 1805: Exile of Jews from Algiers to Tunis and Livorno.

▪ 1805: The leader of the Jewish Nation of Algiers, Naphthalie Busnach, is killed while riots ravage the neighborhoods.

▪ 1806: Expulsion by fatwa of the Jews of Sali in Morocco.

▪ 1806: Ban on Moroccan Jews wearing Western clothing.

▪ 1806: The janissaries of the dey of Algiers massacre and pillage in the Jewish Quarter.

▪ 1807: Expulsion of Jews from Tetouan.

▪ 1808: 1st massacres in the Mellah ghetto, North Africa.

▪ 1815: The chief rabbi of Algiers, Isaac Aboulker, is beheaded during a riot.

▪ 1815: 2nd pogrom of Algiers, Ottoman Algeria.

▪ 1816: In Algeria, ban on carrying weapons for Jews and Christians.

▪ 1820: Massacres of Sahalu Lobiant, Ottoman Syria.

▪ 1828 : Pogrom de Baghdad, Iraq Ottoman.

▪ 1830: 3rd pogrom of Algeria, Ottoman Algeria.

▪ 1830: Start of the persecution of Jews in Persia, caused by the Russian advance in the Caucasus.

▪ 1830: Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran.

▪ 1834: 2nd pogrom of Hebron, Ottoman Palestine.

▪ 1834: Pogrom de Safed, Palestine Ottomane.

▪ 1838: Druze attack in Safed, Ottoman Palestine.

▪ 1839: Massacre of the Mashadi Jews, Iran.

▪ 1839: Forced conversion of surviving Jews from Mashadi.

▪ 1839: Campaign of forced conversions of Iranian Jews.

▪ 1840: Persecution of the Jews of Damascus; ritual murder case.

▪ 1840: Forced conversion of the Jews of Mashadi.

▪ 1841: Massive murders of Jews in Morocco; the sultan is obliged to consider the Jews as his personal property, which helps to protect them.

▪ 1840: Damascus, ritual murders (French Muslims and Christians kidnapped, tortured and killed Jewish children for entertainment), Ottoman Syria.

▪ 1844: 1st Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt.

▪ 1847: Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Liban Ottoman.

▪ 1847: Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Jerusalem, Ottoman Palestine.

▪ 1848: 1st pogrom of Damascus, Syria.

▪ 1848: Total disappearance of the Jews of Mashhad.

▪ 1850: 1st pogrom of Aleppo, Ottoman Syria.

▪ 1877 : 3rd massacre of Damanhur, Ottoman Egypt.

▪ 1877: Pogrom of Mansura, Ottoman Egypt.

▪ 1882: Massacre of Homs, Ottoman Syria.

▪ 1882: 3rd massacre of Alexandria, Ottoman Egypt.

▪ 1889: After the funeral of a rabbi, deemed too discreet, the Jewish cemetery of Baghdad was confiscated.

▪ 1889: Looting of the Jewish quarter of Baghdad.

▪ 1890: 2nd Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt.

▪ 1890: 3rd pogrom de Damascus, Ottoman Syria.

▪ 1891: 4th massacre of Damanahur, Ottoman Egypt.

(longer list here)

There are 2 billion Muslims who control 29 million square kilometers of land. There are 16 million Jews who control 22,000 square kilometers. We are less than 1% of the Muslim population and we have less than 0.1% of Muslim lands. But those 2 billion Muslims want those 16 million Jews and  their tiny sliver of land erased because we had the gall to do what we needed to defend ourselves against multiple attempts at genocidal slaughter.

What about the Palestinian side? I’ve quoted Yellowstone before in saying that evil is wanting to punish the world for what it inflicted on you. The Palestinians meet this to a T. They are angry at the world, punishing everybody right now (notice the global riots), and have contributed almost nothing to humankind aside from terrorism and some local cheese. Palestinian society is sick, it is evil. Justifiably angry, but still evil. But I do believe, as I have written many times, that it can be saved.

Certain contributors here have suggested the Jews are wanting to punish the world for what it has inflicted on us. Well, our track record doesn’t support that:

  • We are building up peoples around the world in numerous areas including agriculture, communications and health.
  • We regularly perform life-saving operations for Palestinians and Arabs from enemy states. Before and after Oct 7th, there have been Gazan cancer and heart patients receiving treatment in Israeli hospitals – to the extent that somehow we’re considered evil if we don’t extend our services to our enemies when they could have easily built their own healthcare capacity. You know, if they decided to establish a functioning society instead of a terror state. By contrast, a Druze auto-accident patient was murdered in his hospital bed in Jenin because they thought he might be Jewish. Honest mistake, you know…
  • WE massively expanded that fricking Al-Shifa Hospital. What hospital did the Palestinians or Arabs ever build for Jews? On the contrary, that lovely old Peace Now couple that used to drive Palestinians to medical appointments in Israel were taken hostage by Hamas.
  • We both offer and provide aid in earthquake-hit Muslim and Arab countries.
  • We aren’t angry at our enemies of the yester-generations (e.g. Germans or Druze).
  • Despite having the capability, we haven’t and have no plans to genocide Palestinians.
  • We withdrew from Gaza in 2005, hoping they’d actually build something other than the capability to attack us.

If Palestinians believe we are trying to punish the world for everything it did to us, then they are being willful idiots (or, more likely, trying to justify genocide). What we are trying to do is ensure that the world doesn’t get to do what they did (or tried to do, in the case of the Arabs) again.

The Iranian axis is only the latest iteration of those seeking to erase us. Hezbollah has a massive arsenal, Iran wants to nuke us, the Houthis are sending cruise missiles and ballistic missiles at our cities and Hamas has sent 10s of thousands of rockets at our cities. (Those Houthi missiles, by the way, are practice for the Iranians to understand how to get their missiles through.)

I can’t confidently say we’ll survive. Our enemies want us all dead. Me, my wife, my children. My kids’ schools all have an armed guard outside. Now they have 2 because past massacres have targeted school children. We don’t want them all dead. No Israeli – even the craziest right-wingers – want to kill every Arab or Palestinian (although some foolishly believe driving them away will solve things).

But they want us all dead. Not only that, but they may get the means.

And in the middle of this – when we are trying to deal with one axis of this monster in Hamas – the Canadians are cutting off our arms. The Americans are wringing their hands, limiting our access, and buying the Hamas starvation story (Israel is sending over 150 trucks a day with about 1,500 tons a day. A person can get by on 500g just fine, so this is enough for 2.7 million people) and limiting our weapons. We aren’t being allowed to finish the job and end the hard-core military operations so we can pivot to other existential threats and lift the level of disorder in the Strip.

I’m looking at this and saying: Do I really have to argue that my people shouldn’t be genocided? Do I really have to argue that the ridiculous accusation of genocide is just that?

This isn’t some far-off reality. Every city in Israel is within 25 miles of the ‘international’ border. Gaza is under 60km (35 miles) from my home. Hezbollah is 140 kilometers (90 miles) away. 70% of Palestinians think Oct 7th was the right thing to do. Why? Not just because civilians were slaughtered, but because the world is pivoting to support them and they’re evil.

So, you better believe I want my army – my friends and my friends’ kids – to disabuse them of that notion. No, I don’t want wholesale slaughter – a million Gazans would be dead if that were the goal. However, I do want every single member of Hama and Palestine Islamic Jihad dead. That is about 40,000 people. They are members of a genocidal cult in service to an ideology that wants to kill my children and isn’t so far from being able to do just that.

As far as I’m concerned, they don’t get to live.

Of course, that won’t happen. Israel is taking prisoners and has been since day 1. We are even treating them in hospitals. Maybe somebody somewhere believes some kind of reform is possible.

Are we free from sin? Of course not. Young men in an existential fight aren’t going to act like lawyers. But with October 7th, the mask has come off our enemies – they and their progressive fellow travelers demand ‘from the river to the sea’ and that means all of us, dead. They attack Jews and Jewish sites worldwide and that means all of us, not just those evil Israelis, dead.

The Jewish people will survive them. We’ll watch them swept away into the dustbin of history. The remains of Hadrian’s Wall are just across the river from the Gateshead Yeshiva. Where our enemies of old have crumbling ruins, we have living, vibrant, centers of learning.

We’ll survive them, as a people. But as our history shows, there is no guarantee that we won’t suffer terribly in the meantime. There is no guarantee that they won’t kill millions in the process of their own erasure.

Sometimes I have a hard time summoning up the will to argue. It is all so ridiculous.

Thankfully, parts of the Arab world are waking up. They are waking up to the limits of “no justice, no peace,” and are instead recognizing that you must pursue peace and progress despite injustice, because no justice is perfect (see my prior message). Jews aren’t going to get back what was taken from them in the Arab and Muslim and European worlds – but we moved on and made things that are far more valuable in our place of freedom. It’d sure be nice for the Arab world to follow in our footsteps.

On the messed up scale, the Arab world is one of the most backward places on the planet. With all their oil wealth, they only surpass Africa and South Asia on the Human Development Index. It is my hope that progress, even that represented by the slave-holding authoritarians of the Emirates, will take hold and lift both Arabs and Jews from the burden of this conflict.

I am always looking for a better tomorrow . My hopes, expressed in books like the City on the Heights and multiple pieces on this site like A Truly Free Palestine and A War Between Peoples Part I, are for peace, prosperity and advancement. Unfortunately that will only come when the exterminationalist movement is suppressed and supplanted. In the meantime, Palestinian society is doing whatever it can to make that hopeful tomorrow seem as unlikely as possible.

If you want more color, check out this piece about a chest-beating Israeli historian of the Nakba who thinks Hamas must be erased and Netanyahu is too much of a wuss to get done what needs to be done.

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Well that was…interesting. What’s next, accusations that Jews poison Christian wells? Corrupt Muslim women with aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum? Make matzoh with the blood of Muslim children?

    Um…I would like some of that aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum if you have any….who wouldn’t?

    Ask the Muslims who invented that lie.

    • #31
  2. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    JosephCox (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Selective history, misleading or outright false numbers ( less than 200 massacred Arabs ? Deir Yassin and the King David bombing gets you to about 200, even on the most conservative figures )

    King David Bombing: 41 Arabs

    Deir Yassin (most conservative estimate): 107.

    Total ~ 200?!?

    Math is hard.

    Math IS hard.  So I turned to that Pearl Of Truth (wikipedia):

    On 15 May 1948, following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day, the armies of a number of Arab countries invaded what had just ceased to be Mandatory Palestine, turning the conflict into the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. The yishuv ( now officially called Israel) suffered between 5,700 and 5,800 casualties.[5] The death toll on the Arab side is unclear, but according to Benny Morris, it might have been slightly higher or much higher than the Jewish one. In his book, Morris mentions an estimate of 12,000 provided by Haj Amin al-Husseini in 1950.[5] These numbers amount to around 1 percent of the population of each side.[1]

    It’s an interesting article.  Also from which:

    In 1946, at a meeting held between the heads of the Haganah, Ben-Gurion predicted a confrontation between the Arabs of Palestine and the Arab states. Concerning the “principle of purity of arms”, he stressed that: “The end does not justify all means. Our war is based on moral grounds”[45] and during the 1948 War, the Mapam, the political party affiliated to Palmach, asked for “a strict observance of the Jewish Purity of arms to secure the moral character of [the] war”.[46]

    When he was criticized by Mapam members for his attitude concerning the Arab refugee problem, Ben-Gurion reminded them the events of Lydda and Ramla and the fact Palmach officers had been responsible for the “outrage that had encouraged the Arabs’ flight made the party uncomfortable.”[46]

    And

    With regard to massacres perpetrated by the IDF at the end of the war and particularly during Operation Hiram, Morris and Yoav Gelber consider that lack of discipline cannot explain the violence.[1][54] Gelber points out the “hard feelings [of the soldiers] towards the Palestinians” and the fact that the Palestinians had not fled like in former operations.[54] Benny Morris thinks that they were related to a “general vengefulness and a desire by local commanders to precipitate a civilian exodus“.[1]

     

    • #32
  3. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I prefer to read such evil, defamatory garbage in the original German. Verstehst du?

    https://www.ae911truth.org/

    You don’t seem to be refuting anything I’ve said.

    If I’ve said anything which is factually wrong or inaccurate please point it out to me.

    If you have a chance, have a look through the above linked site. Again, if you disagree with anything they have to say, please say what and why.

     

    • #33
  4. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Not interested in paranoid conspiracy websites. I’ve seen too many of them already, barking about a variety of things.

    I have known liberal Jews, leftist Jews, and conservatives Jews. And as a matter of fact, most of the radical leftists I have personally known were not Jewish but from Christian and atheist backgrounds.

    • #34
  5. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Not interested in paranoid conspiracy websites. I’ve seen too many of them already, barking about a variety of things.

    I have known liberal Jews, leftist Jews, and conservatives Jews. And as a matter of fact, most of the radical leftists I have personally known were not Jewish but from Christian and atheist backgrounds.

    The link I sent is a website which about 3,600 credentialled architects and civil engineers have put their name to – I know at least one of them personally. I think you’re just afraid to consider anything that might suggest that your worldview might be 180 degrees around from reality.

    I had a chuckle at your second paragraph. Jews are 2% of the population. Even if 100% of Jews were radical leftists, you would only need 2.05% of the remainder of the population to be lefties to exceed the number of Jewish lefties, so given a random sample of course you’d meet more non-Jewish radicals.

     

     

    • #35
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Tribalism could be good in the way that you describe, but it could also be detrimental if you have an influential minority with no loyalty to the country they happen to be living in – just to their own people and to a foreign country.

    Good thing that doesn’t describe the Jews or most others.  Jews in pre-war Germany thought of themselves as good, loyal German citizens until they found out they weren’t allowed to be.  During WWI in the United States, Germans of the 1st and 2nd generation thought of themselves as both Germans and loyal, U.S. citizens until the Wilson administration and some of its adherents said they had to make a choice.  The examples go on and on.  There are cases where recently arrived immigrants really did consider their old allegiances to their former nation-state to take priority.  That can be a problem, but I haven’t heard of any examples of Jews in the U.S. doing that.  

    • #36
  7. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Tribalism could be good in the way that you describe, but it could also be detrimental if you have an influential minority with no loyalty to the country they happen to be living in – just to their own people and to a foreign country.

    Good thing that doesn’t describe the Jews or most others. Jews in pre-war Germany thought of themselves as good, loyal German citizens until they found out they weren’t allowed to be. During WWI in the United States, Germans of the 1st and 2nd generation thought of themselves as both Germans and loyal, U.S. citizens until the Wilson administration and some of its adherents said they had to make a choice. The examples go on and on. There are cases where recently arrived immigrants really did consider their old allegiances to their former nation-state to take priority. That can be a problem, but I haven’t heard of any examples of Jews in the U.S. doing that.

    Well you’ve got big political donors like Haim Saban for one example ( he’s a dual Israeli-US citizen ). Quote from him, “I’m a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel”.

    Then you have US citizens who’ve served in the IDF, and  supposedly about 15,000 “sayanim” in the USA who work for mossad when required.

    • #37
  8. Macho Grande' Coolidge
    Macho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I prefer to read such evil, defamatory garbage in the original German. Verstehst du?

    https://www.ae911truth.org/

    You don’t seem to be refuting anything I’ve said.

    If I’ve said anything which is factually wrong or inaccurate please point it out to me.

    If you have a chance, have a look through the above linked site. Again, if you disagree with anything they have to say, please say what and why.

     

    If only there was an internet in 1939, and someone, anyone, could have refuted these same points to Hitler, we could have avoided the Holocaust.

    You’re literally smearing feces on the website, as an argument.  If you have a chance, please look through the below linked site.  If you disagree with anything they have to say, please say what and why.

    http://www.ishouldbeashamedofmyself.org

    • #38
  9. Macho Grande' Coolidge
    Macho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    This is a great OP, @JosephCox.  Ignore the lunatics as best you can.

     I’m reading Six Days of War: June 1967.  It’s a historically fascinating and horrifying read.

     

    • #39
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Comments on part 1 were better. Just saying.

    • #40
  11. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    Macho Grande' (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I prefer to read such evil, defamatory garbage in the original German. Verstehst du?

    https://www.ae911truth.org/

    You don’t seem to be refuting anything I’ve said.

    If I’ve said anything which is factually wrong or inaccurate please point it out to me.

    If you have a chance, have a look through the above linked site. Again, if you disagree with anything they have to say, please say what and why.

     

    If only there was an internet in 1939, and someone, anyone, could have refuted these same points to Hitler, we could have avoided the Holocaust.

    You’re literally smearing feces on the website, as an argument. If you have a chance, please look through the below linked site. If you disagree with anything they have to say, please say what and why.

    http://www.ishouldbeashamedofmyself.org

    Not sure what you’re playing at – I couldn’t connect to that even with a VPN, so whatever point you’re trying to make just spell it out in English please.

    I’ve got a book recommendation for you – “Jewish History, Jewish Religion – The Weight of Three Thousand Years”, by Israel Shahak. It’s a short book – you could read it in an evening. 

    • #41
  12. JosephCox Coolidge
    JosephCox
    @JosephCox

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Well you’ve got big political donors like Haim Saban for one example ( he’s a dual Israeli-US citizen ). Quote from him, “I’m a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel”.

    Back when I lived in the US I used to say that if there was a major divide between Israel and the US – as in one in which my interests in both countries were to be brought to odds – then something was seriously wrong with one of them (or both).

    The countries have so very much in common, ideologically. It is more than that though, they have shared roots.

    The US was founded on ideas, bringing together people of many backgrounds to form a new body politic based on variously defined ideas of freedom and self-determination. The ‘American’ concept wasn’t formed of a bunch of people living in North America and then, due to geography and language, spontaneously forming a nation as happened in say… almost everywhere else. Instead, there was this calling, explicitly rooted in Jewish terminology and concepts. The idea of the City Upon a Hill was in Winthrop’s ‘opening lines’ and is based on the idea of Jerusalem. The US has been through its troubles and sins (black slavery, native cleansing) but still tries to hold dear to those foundational concepts.  

    The Jewish people were founded on ideas. Yes, we have the whole Abraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov thing. But we weren’t a people who happened to be living in a place and then, due to geography and language, spontaneously forming a nation. Instead, our national birth story is one of freedom from slavery and a relationship with G-d. We were formed on ideas. Our goal was, and is, the same City Upon a Hill. The ancient Jewish nation state was riddled with failures, it was hardly inspiring.  But those ideas remained, linking people who came together – just as in the US – from many different background to form a new body politic based on variously defined ideas of freedom and self-determination.

    I had no conflict between my allegiance to the United States and my allegiance to Israel. I wanted Israel to survive and flourish, but I also wanted the US to survive and flourish and I saw those two things as highly complementary.

    To put it another way, you may be conflating multiple interests/loyalties with disloyalty. An individual may be loyal to G-d, family and country and never be disloyal to any of the three. An individual may worship money and be a perfectly good American. They may embrace an ideology or a church and express no disloyalty to the state they live in. It is only when they cross into disloyalty – selling their country for money, undermining their country for another, betraying their vision of G-d in the national interest (or visa versa) that problems emerge.

    The vast majority of American Jews who support Israel are in no way disloyal to the United States. They aren’t sleeper agents waiting for some sub-sonic signal to awaken them to world destruction. In fact, today, I’d venture that the majority of American Jews may be anti-Israel – whether from the Haredi or the hard-core leftist side of the equation. Many are also anti-Jewish (although only from the hard-core leftist side).

    I suppose similar things could be said of Catholics and the Pope, except Netanyahu is not seen as the leader (or even a leader) of American Jews. He has zero power in the US. Instead, again, people are supportive of the idea of Israel, but they aren’t kowtowing to the Knesset.

    So what now? Are we in a situation in which loyalty to multiple ideas demands disloyalty?

    I think not. As I look at both countries today, both are struggling. The US is falling into a South-American-style battle between establishment bureaucracy and caudillo demagoguery (both sides are wrong) while Israel is suffering from internecine conflict over the place of democracy vs. rule by philosopher kings (both sides are wrong).

    I’m saddened by both situations. I’m in Israel, a far smaller country with issues that the US actually figured out ways to basically resolve in 1792. Thus, I can see myself possible making a difference here and being able to help resolve things and move things forward. I’m not in the US and I don’t consider it my place – anymore – to weigh in on domestic issues. I make almost no comments about Trump or Biden or option C, outside of those related to foreign policy. It isn’t my place.

    Am I disloyal to the United States? No. I saddened by where the country is, particularly on a cultural and social level. I think the current leadership has made some terrible mistakes – but so do 95% of the people on this platform. I think the financial imperium the US imposes on the world is a mistake and should be walked back. Basically, I wish the US well and hope that it grows only safer, stronger and freer. I hope that it grows to be that City on the Hill – that shining example of the possible.

    At the same time, I am an Israeli citizen and loyal to Israel. Guess what, the same applies. I hope that it grows only safer, stronger and freer. I hope that it grows to be that City on the Hill – that shining example of the possible.

    I believe a US, true to its foundational values, will support a homeland for the Jews – a place where they aren’t persecuted. I also believe a US, true to its foundational values, will support a homeland for the Kurds. For exactly the same reasons. I believe a US, true to its foundational values, will help its allies stand up against genocidal forces – whether they be Taiwanese, Israeli or Singaporean. I also believe a US, true to its foundational values, will support freedom worldwide. I don’t think American boots on the ground are a necessary part of this, but I think a coup in Iran – or China – would be very positive things if there were ways to encourage it.

    The current fallout between the countries isn’t a question of loyalty. 95% of the people on this platform would criticize Biden Administration decisions without considering themselves disloyal – or being disloyal.

    And so, today, I stand with both Israel and the US. There is no disloyalty involved, just an aspiration that both countries should realize their great promise and a realization that each can strengthen the other’s ability to do exactly that.

    What about Saban? Is he disloyal because he supports Israel with his political contributions? Well, are opponents of the CCP disloyal because that is the issue that motivates them? Are they just serving the interests of Taiwan, Japan and Singapore? Or, perhaps, are they embracing an ideal. An ideal that people should have a homeland, the genocidal forces should be held at bay and that freedom should be encouraged.

    I think its the latter.

    But I know you and I will disagree.

    • #42
  13. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Well that was…interesting. What’s next, accusations that Jews poison Christian wells? Corrupt Muslim women with aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum? Make matzoh with the blood of Muslim children?

    Um…I would like some of that aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum if you have any….who wouldn’t?

    When you ask Muslims why they created that lie, you should also ask them why Arab embassies distributed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And why month-long dramatizations of the Protocols were broadcast during Ramadan.

    • #43
  14. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    JosephCox (View Comment):
    I had no conflict between my allegiance to the United States and my allegiance to Israel. I wanted Israel to survive and flourish, but I also wanted the US to survive and flourish and I saw those two things as highly complementary.

    Before the United States entered WWII, there were Americans who volunteered to fight the Japanese in China, and the Nazis in France and England. They were 100% loyal Americans. (Of course, some Jew-haters do see fighting Nazis as  a betrayal…)

    • #44
  15. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    JosephCox (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Well you’ve got big political donors like Haim Saban for one example ( he’s a dual Israeli-US citizen ). Quote from him, “I’m a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel”.

    Back when I lived in the US I used to say that if there was a major divide between Israel and the US – as in one in which my interests in both countries were to be brought to odds – then something was seriously wrong with one of them (or both).

    The countries have so very much in common, ideologically. It is more than that though, they have shared roots.

    The US was founded on ideas, bringing together people of many backgrounds to form a new body politic based on variously defined ideas of freedom and self-determination. The ‘American’ concept wasn’t formed of a bunch of people living in North America and then, due to geography and language, spontaneously forming a nation as happened in say… almost everywhere else. Instead, there was this calling, explicitly rooted in Jewish terminology and concepts. The idea of the City Upon a Hill was in Winthrop’s ‘opening lines’ and is based on the idea of Jerusalem. The US has been through its troubles and sins (black slavery, native cleansing) but still tries to hold dear to those foundational concepts.

    The Jewish people were founded on ideas………..

    ……………..But I know you and I will disagree.

    Well I agree with your last sentence at least…….

    The US was originally an assortment of mainly British and Spanish colonies – the “idea” came later. It ended up being basically an offshoot of Britain. If the Spanish had ended up ruling the whole continent it would have Spanish characteristics rather than British. Cultural characteristics go deeper and last longer than most people realise. For example, you can still see differences between US states which correspond pretty closely with what part of England the original settlers came from, or which side they took in the English civil war.

    Not sure what you mean by the Jewish people being “founded” – they’re basically a tribe, leaving aside the question of how closely Eastern European Jews are related to those of Middle Eastern descent etc. You’re a very unusual tribe, having lasted a long time as a separate people in many different places.

    And having a very old religion and very deep rooted culture of your own, you’re obviously going to retain a lot of characteristics which are different to other groups.

    For various reasons, Jews have become very influential in the US, to a degree which is vastly out of proportion their share of the population. I really don’t think you can honestly dispute that, and I can spend a lot of time quoting facts and statistics but I really don’t think I need to.

    There’s nothing unusual about a small minority being wealthier and more influential than the majority in a particular country; I’m sure you can think of other examples. The question is whether or not that minority uses their influence in a way that is beneficial to the country overall. 

    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas  or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me. 

    • #45
  16. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas  or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me. 

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests.  There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support.  And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.  

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.   

    • #46
  17. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me.

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests. There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support. And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.

    I suggest that he sees America’s best interests as involving the subjugation and eradication of the Jewish people.

    • #47
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Well that was…interesting. What’s next, accusations that Jews poison Christian wells? Corrupt Muslim women with aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum? Make matzoh with the blood of Muslim children?

    Um…I would like some of that aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum if you have any….who wouldn’t?

    When you ask Muslims why they created that lie, you should also ask them why Arab embassies distributed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And why month-long dramatizations of the Protocols were broadcast during Ramadan.

    They’re your mirror image Paul. You can explain it to me. 

    • #48
  19. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Well that was…interesting. What’s next, accusations that Jews poison Christian wells? Corrupt Muslim women with aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum? Make matzoh with the blood of Muslim children?

    Um…I would like some of that aphrodisiac-laced chewing gum if you have any….who wouldn’t?

    When you ask Muslims why they created that lie, you should also ask them why Arab embassies distributed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And why month-long dramatizations of the Protocols were broadcast during Ramadan.

    They’re your mirror image Paul. You can explain it to me.

    Because me noticing exterminationist propaganda and tyrannical ambitions is exactly the same thing.

    • #49
  20. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me.

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests. There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support. And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.

    Jeez, well I suppose you have the neocon view of what’s in US interests.

    There wouldn’t be a Russia-Ukraine war without the efforts of neocon lunatics/morons like Victoria Nuland ( Mrs Robert Kagan ). You’re missing the point – I meant actual, real US interests as opposed to what the neocons have decided they want to pursue in their own interests.

    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    Then there’s the long history of the US getting involved in middle east conflicts for no benefit to anyone except Israel.

    The Israelis are now trying to provoke a war with Iran, which no doubt they think you dumb Americans will fight on their behalf. 

    I don’t know where you get your news from but you seem either really badly informed or astoundingly naive. 

    • #50
  21. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me.

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests. There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support. And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.

    Jeez, well I suppose you have the neocon view of what’s in US interests.

    There wouldn’t be a Russia-Ukraine war without the efforts of neocon lunatics/morons like Victoria Nuland ( Mrs Robert Kagan ). You’re missing the point – I meant actual, real US interests as opposed to what the neocons have decided they want to pursue in their own interests.

    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    Then there’s the long history of the US getting involved in middle east conflicts for no benefit to anyone except Israel.

    The Israelis are now trying to provoke a war with Iran, which no doubt they think you dumb Americans will fight on their behalf.

    I don’t know where you get your news from but you seem either really badly informed or astoundingly naive.

    Well, whaddya know.  Just like the other main anti-semite here on Ricochet.   They could be twins! 

    • #51
  22. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me.

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests. There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support. And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.

    Jeez, well I suppose you have the neocon view of what’s in US interests.

    There wouldn’t be a Russia-Ukraine war without the efforts of neocon lunatics/morons like Victoria Nuland ( Mrs Robert Kagan ). You’re missing the point – I meant actual, real US interests as opposed to what the neocons have decided they want to pursue in their own interests.

    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    Then there’s the long history of the US getting involved in middle east conflicts for no benefit to anyone except Israel.

    The Israelis are now trying to provoke a war with Iran, which no doubt they think you dumb Americans will fight on their behalf.

    I don’t know where you get your news from but you seem either really badly informed or astoundingly naive.

    Well, whaddya know. Just like the other main anti-semite here on Ricochet. They could be twins!

    Uh-huh. Usual name-calling but no attempt to address the question, and apparently no interest in hearing anything that contradicts your rather shallow worldview.

    Btw, I just read a bit more about the Israeli’s deliberate targeting and killing of 7 aid workers, which included 3 Brits.

    These people you’re so fond of are irredeemably evil.   

    • #52
  23. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Btw, I just read a bit more about the Israeli’s deliberate targeting and killing of 7 aid workers, which included 3 Brits

    I’ll bet you did read more about it.

    • #53
  24. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Btw, I just read a bit more about the Israeli’s deliberate targeting and killing of 7 aid workers, which included 3 Brits

    I’ll bet you did read more about it.

    Do you actually have anything to say or not ?

    • #54
  25. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    The Ukrainians are fighting for the right to not be Russians. You, with your superior world view, can explain to them why that is nothing; the victorious Russians don’t seem to be able to.

    Freedom is an important thing. It allows one to spout mindless drivel about the Joooos like a salesman of used copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion without having to worry about a fate any worse than being laughed at.

     

    • #55
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Btw, I just read a bit more about the Israeli’s deliberate targeting and killing of 7 aid workers, which included 3 Brits

    I’ll bet you did read more about it.

    Do you actually have anything to say or not ?

    Sorry.  It was rude of me to interrupt. 

    You were telling us about doing some reading.  What happened next?   

    • #56
  27. Ryan Van Tress Inactive
    Ryan Van Tress
    @RyanVanTress

    Thank you Joseph for sharing this. I sincerely hope that somehow the situation will improve before your children enter military service. 

    When I studied in Tel Aviv 11 years ago it struck me how much Israelis, while skeptical of the possibility, have wanted peace. It’s unfortunate that the skepticism was justified. 

    I stand with Israel, and I think most Americans still do. 

    • #57
  28. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    Btw, I just read a bit more about the Israeli’s deliberate targeting and killing of 7 aid workers, which included 3 Brits

    I’ll bet you did read more about it.

    Do you actually have anything to say or not ?

    Sorry. It was rude of me to interrupt.

    You were telling us about doing some reading. What happened next?

    We’re still left hanging.   The suspense is getting difficult to deal with. 

    • #58
  29. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    TomRoberts57 (View Comment):
    I can think of other examples, but foreign policy in particular is the one area where Jewish interests are pretty much diametrically opposite to what would be in Americas or Britains best interests. Whether you genuinely can’t see that or are just pretending to not see any conflict of loyalties or interests I don’t know, but that conflict seems rather obvious to me.

    I’ve run a bunch of foreign policy interests through my mind, from the Russia-Ukraine war though the China-Taiwan conflict, and can’t think of any where Israel’s foreign policy interests are not well aligned with U.S. interests. There were some complaints before the Hamas attack that Israel wasn’t doing enough to support Ukraine, but that was more about the level of support than the direction of support. And now Israel has its hands full with Hamas.

    So if there is any conflict of loyalties it is far from obvious.

    Jeez, well I suppose you have the neocon view of what’s in US interests.

    There wouldn’t be a Russia-Ukraine war without the efforts of neocon lunatics/morons like Victoria Nuland ( Mrs Robert Kagan ). You’re missing the point – I meant actual, real US interests as opposed to what the neocons have decided they want to pursue in their own interests.

    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    Then there’s the long history of the US getting involved in middle east conflicts for no benefit to anyone except Israel.

    The Israelis are now trying to provoke a war with Iran, which no doubt they think you dumb Americans will fight on their behalf.

    I don’t know where you get your news from but you seem either really badly informed or astoundingly naive.

    Well, whaddya know. Just like the other main anti-semite here on Ricochet. They could be twins!

    Have you noticed that there is a certain kind of…person who throws around “neocon!” the way monkeys throw poo?

    • #59
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    There wouldn’t be a Russia-Ukraine war without the efforts of neocon lunatics/morons like Victoria Nuland ( Mrs Robert Kagan ). You’re missing the point – I meant actual, real US interests as opposed to what the neocons have decided they want to pursue in their own interests.

    The neocons Ukraine project has been a catastrophe. Russia has won, America and the EU/NATO has lost, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for absolutely nothing.

    Then there’s the long history of the US getting involved in middle east conflicts for no benefit to anyone except Israel.

    The Israelis are now trying to provoke a war with Iran, which no doubt they think you dumb Americans will fight on their behalf.

    I don’t know where you get your news from but you seem either really badly informed or astoundingly naive.

    Well, whaddya know. Just like the other main anti-semite here on Ricochet. They could be twins!

    Have you noticed that there is a certain kind of…person who throws around “neocon!” the way monkeys throw poo?

    To be fair, it comes from a couple types of persons that I wouldn’t normally put together in the same category.  I sometimes wonder if they have more in common than a tendency to do that particular line of namecalling, but so far I can’t really say. More research is required.  

    • #60
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