Truth and Lies about Gaza War Crimes

 

Okay, I get it: Joe Biden is upset because there is a war in Gaza, the Israelis are spearheading it (although Hamas instigated it), and the Palestinians are the victims of it (even though some people believe the Palestinians support Hamas). Plus, it’s an election year. Although Biden keeps wringing his hands and making threats in response to how the Israelis are conducting the war, he’s behaving as if Hamas had nothing to do with the war going on. Especially when it comes to accusations of war crimes, the spotlight is focused on Israel. Does Joe Biden even know what a war crime is? You can’t accuse an army of war crimes that do not exist. I thought it would be worthwhile to define war crimes and explain how they are overwhelmingly committed by Hamas, not by Israel.

But if we are going to blame groups for war crimes, we should have clear definitions for doing so:

A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings including genocide or ethnic cleansing, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, the conscription of children in the military and flouting the legal distinctions of proportionality and military necessity.

If we study Israel’s actions, you would think that they must be committing war crimes, as Joe Biden repeatedly criticizes them. But those aren’t the facts.

He condemns them for not making “targeted attacks.” But the IDF is providing safe zones and has made targeted attacks.

He thinks they should be providing more aid or make it easier to provide aid to civilians. This is a ludicrous expectation, because additional aid will likely continue to go to Hamas. Besides, there are reasons to believe that the “civilians” are actively supporting Hamas.

He has claimed that too many of the reported 28,000 casualties have been civilians. But the Gazan agency that reports these figures is unreliable, and they don’t separate civilian counts from soldiers. So, there is no way to know just how many people have died or who they are.

He has described the attack on Gaza as “over the top,” and accused the IDF of indiscriminate bombing, which is not true. But Israel has made it clear that it plans to destroy Hamas and their tunnels. There is no easy way to proceed.

If you review every war crime in the list above, you will see that Israel has not committed any war crimes; a person could argue that “proportionality” is not being practiced, but this concept is complex and very difficult to determine, and nearly impossible to apply to the war in Gaza.

If we look at the actions of Hamas, however, we see multiple war crimes. They have committed torture (burning bodies and torturing Israelis as they raided their kibbutzim), taken hostages (from the kibbutzim and participants at a music concert), destroyed civilian property (including homes and buildings on the kibbutzim), deception by perfidy (when they promised to release hostages and reneged), wartime sexual violence (committed at the kibbutzim), and pillaging (as they ran through the homes and buildings at the kibbutzim). And I would claim that their intention on October 7 was genocide: they have made no secret of their intention to destroy Israel and its people.

*     *     *     *

You might wonder why I have focused on war crimes. After all, no legal body will probably accuse Hamas of war crimes, and Israel will disregard these types of allegations if they are issued.

First, the anti-Semites have come out in droves, crying that they are pro-Palestinian and pro-Hamas. They insist that the accusations against Hamas are lies; at some point, we can hope that the truth reaches them and sanity will reign. I also think these distinctions between Hamas and Israel are very important because for now, the world is mostly supporting Israel. But if Israel is condemned with lies, especially for war crimes they have not committed, it will make Israel’s efforts all the more difficult. Over the years they have been the victims of a mythical history, accusations of unwarranted land grabs, and anti-Semitic tropes.

Let’s keep the record straight when it comes to war crimes.

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  1. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Everybody is biased RH. It’s part of being human.

    I don’t disagree. I’m not biased on the side that raped and tortured civilians on purpose and baked little babies in hot ovens.  

    • #31
  2. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    Israel is even seeking to starve the entire population of Gaza. It’s appalling. I’m trying to remember if I’ve seen anything more horrid in my entire life. Maybe the killing fields in Cambodia. Obviously, the death toll from this attempted genocide by starvation isn’t very high yet. Starvation takes time.

    This is all occurring right out in the open, on video, for anyone to see who cares to look.

    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling. I see Biden shamefully aiding and abetting Israel’s crimes. Others see Biden as somehow wrongfully holding the Israelis back.

    Even an Israeli paper, Haaretz, reported 11,500 children killed in Gaza, as of about 2 weeks ago. That’s about 300 Palestinian children for every Israeli child killed on 10-7. Apparently, this is not enough for some people. Indeed, some people seem upset at anyone who isn’t cheering on the killing with sufficient enthusiasm.

    Oh, for Pete’s sake. War is hell. Israel is fighting illegal combatants who don’t follow the laws of armed conflict. Because Hamas prevented civilians from leaving, dress like civilians, and fight from civilian locations, Hamas is responsible for civilian casualties caused by their own actions. People who have clutched their pearls for years have enabled these tactics to succeed and thus led to widespread use of such tactics.

    Not to mention using ambulances to move weapons, hospitals, mosques, and schools to store weapons or to attack from, and building military bases under all of the above. 

    This is why Palestinians can’t have nice things. 

    • #32
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    TBA (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    Israel is even seeking to starve the entire population of Gaza. It’s appalling. I’m trying to remember if I’ve seen anything more horrid in my entire life. Maybe the killing fields in Cambodia. Obviously, the death toll from this attempted genocide by starvation isn’t very high yet. Starvation takes time.

    This is all occurring right out in the open, on video, for anyone to see who cares to look.

    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling. I see Biden shamefully aiding and abetting Israel’s crimes. Others see Biden as somehow wrongfully holding the Israelis back.

    Even an Israeli paper, Haaretz, reported 11,500 children killed in Gaza, as of about 2 weeks ago. That’s about 300 Palestinian children for every Israeli child killed on 10-7. Apparently, this is not enough for some people. Indeed, some people seem upset at anyone who isn’t cheering on the killing with sufficient enthusiasm.

    Oh, for Pete’s sake. War is hell. Israel is fighting illegal combatants who don’t follow the laws of armed conflict. Because Hamas prevented civilians from leaving, dress like civilians, and fight from civilian locations, Hamas is responsible for civilian casualties caused by their own actions. People who have clutched their pearls for years have enabled these tactics to succeed and thus led to widespread use of such tactics.

    Not to mention using ambulances to move weapons, hospitals, mosques, and schools to store weapons or to attack from, and building military bases under all of the above.

    This is why Palestinians can’t have nice things.

    But it’s entirely by choice.

    Anyone remember the final episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer?  That would be cool to see in Gaza.

    • #33
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Zafar (View Comment):
    and that’s been apparent for some time

    Apparent = lack of evidence on which to base such a conclusion

    • #34
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    and that’s been apparent for some time

    Apparent = lack of evidence on which to base such a conclusion

    Many statements – even on a Caroline Glick podcast Susan linked in the past – but fwiw;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/amp/

    • #35
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Zafar (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    and that’s been apparent for some time

    Apparent = lack of evidence on which to base such a conclusion

    Many statements – even on a Caroline Glick podcast Susan linked in the past – but fwiw;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/amp/

    So that’s it? A concept paper?   

    • #36
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    So that’s it? A concept paper?

    Well you could check for statements by Smotrich and Ben Gvir (both ministers in the govt) and by looking at what Israel’s actions so far push towards, but Israel/Palestine won’t be resolved by nitpicking on Ricochet.

    I think you’re not on X (twitter) but the usual suspects are quite ‘interesting’ on this subject.

    • #37
  8. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    I will bite for the moment. They are not intentionally killing civilians. They are not taking hostages. And they are destroying property where Hamas hides out.

    Haaretz us full of bologny. No one knows how many people have really died.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling.

    I don’t see the differences in our views that way at all. I find your viewpoint detestable and misguided and I am not at all puzzled. This is your standard type of answer.

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Everybody is biased RH. It’s part of being human.

    But bias doesn’t preclude telling the truth. Unless we can’t tell the difference.

    Confirmation bias can make it difficult to acknowledge that something is true, especially when it causes us cognitive dissonance. Some time back you pointed out that this was sort of my thing with gay issues – correctly.

    Confirmation bias is an issue for everyone –especially when the issue is dear to us.

    When a “holy book” calls for the extermination of the Jews…

    Jews and gays and anyone not Islamic enough.

    • #38
  9. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    I will bite for the moment. They are not intentionally killing civilians. They are not taking hostages. And they are destroying property where Hamas hides out.

    Haaretz us full of bologny. No one knows how many people have really died.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling.

    I don’t see the differences in our views that way at all. I find your viewpoint detestable and misguided and I am not at all puzzled. This is your standard type of answer.

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Everybody is biased RH. It’s part of being human.

    But bias doesn’t preclude telling the truth. Unless we can’t tell the difference.

    Confirmation bias can make it difficult to acknowledge that something is true, especially when it causes us cognitive dissonance. Some time back you pointed out that this was sort of my thing with gay issues – correctly.

    Confirmation bias is an issue for everyone –especially when the issue is dear to us.

    When a “holy book” calls for the extermination of the Jews…

    Jews and gays and anyone not Islamic enough.

    Very true. But while the Koran calls for war until all the people of the world have been conquered, Judaism is the only religion that it singles out for explicit talk about extermination.

    • #39
  10. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    So that’s it? A concept paper?

    Well you could check for statements by Smotrich and Ben Gvir (both ministers in the govt) and by looking at what Israel’s actions so far push towards, but Israel/Palestine won’t be resolved by nitpicking on Ricochet.

    I think you’re not on X (twitter) but the usual suspects are quite ‘interesting’ on this subject.

    Israel has its own problem with pearl-clutching lefties. CNN is your source? Explains a lot.

    • #40
  11. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Inactive
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    I will bite for the moment. They are not intentionally killing civilians. They are not taking hostages. And they are destroying property where Hamas hides out.

    Haaretz us full of bologny. No one knows how many people have really died.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling.

    I don’t see the differences in our views that way at all. I find your viewpoint detestable and misguided and I am not at all puzzled. This is your standard type of answer.

    And I really don’t get the argument that supposedly Israel is somehow required to supply food etc to the people who have been attacking them.

    For one thing, they’re preventing other people from supplying food, you know.

    For another thing, every single person in Gaza is not attacking them.  Some did.  Militants from Hamas and some other groups.

    Supposedly, one of the principles of modern, civilized countries is that you differentiate between combatants and noncombatants.  This is precisely what Israel is failing to do and, frankly, has failed to do for many years, though never as brutally as over the past 4 months.  This is what our country is supporting.

    It is so troubling to me to see some of you — ke and Susan, here, who I know pretty well — completely losing sight of this.  Causing massive suffering to civilians is one of the principal war crimes.  Israel is doing this, without question.

    I do realize that we’ve done it as well, though less dramatically and more slowly.  Our blockades and embargoes of Iraq and Iran — and Venezuela, for that matter — caused great suffering, and even a substantial number of deaths, especially in Iraq.  (I’m referring, in particular, to the sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s.)

    For a third thing, Israel has special responsibilities in Gaza, because it is the occupying power.  It withdrew its forces some years ago — around 2006, I think — but kept control of the sea, the air, and the borders.  It essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison.  It refuses to allow the people in Gaza to form a state, while denying, thus far, that the land belongs to Israel itself.

    • #41
  12. Susan Quinn Member
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    For one thing, they’re preventing other people from supplying food, you know.

    Not true. Allowing aid through is slowed down, in order for Israel to inspect the shipments. That can’t be helped.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Supposedly, one of the principles of modern, civilized countries is that you differentiate between combatants and noncombatants.  This is precisely what Israel is failing to do and, frankly, has failed to do for many years, though never as brutally as over the past 4 months.  This is what our country is supporting.

    They can’t make the distinction easily because Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms. They dress like all the other Palestinians. How would you suggest they tell the difference?

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    For a third thing, Israel has special responsibilities in Gaza, because it is the occupying power.  It withdrew its forces some years ago — around 2006, I think — but kept control of the sea, the air, and the borders.  It essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison.  It refuses to allow the people in Gaza to form a state, while denying, thus far, that the land belongs to Israel itself.

    So many errors in one paragraph. You can call it an occupying power, but it wouldn’t exert so much control if the
    Gazans didn’t pursue  terrorism. So Israel must have strict oversight to protect its people. As some people have said, Gaza could have developed the Strip into a Singapore; they’ve received millions of dollars, which have been wasted on building tunnels for war. If they had shown some incentive for being peaceful neighbors and acting as responsible leaders, they probably would have been able to have a state. They didn’t want to make Gaza a state; they wanted to drive out Israel and have the land all for themselves.

    • #42
  13. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    For one thing, they’re preventing other people from supplying food, you know. 
    [Hamas is taking the supplies and has prevented people from leaving.]

    For another thing, every single person in Gaza is not attacking them. Some did. Militants from Hamas and some other groups.
    [Hamas dresses as civilians and operates among civilians, even using them as human shields. Responsibility for civilian deaths lies with Hamas.  That is why uniforms are so critical. Unlawful combatants.  They do this to get an advantage, one our spineless leaders give in to but Israel does not. If this strategy only led to death on the spot for unlawful combatants with protections only for lawful combatants, we might save civilian lives.]

    Supposedly, one of the principles of modern, civilized countries is that you differentiate between combatants and noncombatants. [We already have this. It is called wearing a military uniform.] This is precisely what Israel is failing to do and, frankly, has failed to do for many years, though never as brutally as over the past 4 months. [No, you misspelled Hamas.] This is what our country is supporting. [You darn tootin.  Kill unlawful combatants and terrorists who kill civilians and bake infants in ovens.]

    It is so troubling to me to see some of you — ke and Susan, here, who I know pretty well — completely losing sight of this. Causing massive suffering to civilians is one of the principal war crimes. Israel is doing this, without question. [Jerry, you need to study the laws of armed conflict.  I’m glad you aren’t a general in ours or their military. We have already had too many that weren’t good at winning but we’re good at prolonging a war.]

    I do realize that we’ve done it as well, though less dramatically and more slowly. Our blockades and embargoes of Iraq and Iran — and Venezuela, for that matter — caused great suffering, and even a substantial number of deaths, especially in Iraq. (I’m referring, in particular, to the sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s.) [Necessary, but would be obvious to more countries if we actually declared war.]

    For a third thing, Israel has special responsibilities in Gaza, because it is the occupying power. [Nope] It withdrew its forces some years ago — around 2006, I think — but kept control of the sea, the air, and the borders. It essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison. It refuses to allow the people in Gaza to form a state, while denying, thus far, that the land belongs to Israel itself. [Oh gee]

     

    • #43
  14. Susan Quinn Member
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    For one thing, they’re preventing other people from supplying food, you know.
    [Hamas is taking the supplies and has prevented people from leaving.]

    For another thing, every single person in Gaza is not attacking them. Some did. Militants from Hamas and some other groups.
    [Hamas dresses as civilians and operates among civilians, even using them as human shields. Responsibility for civilian deaths lies with Hamas. That is why uniforms are so critical. Unlawful combatants. They do this to get an advantage, one our spineless leaders give in to but Israel does not. If this strategy only led to death on the spot for unlawful combatants with protections only for lawful combatants, we might save civilian lives.]

    Supposedly, one of the principles of modern, civilized countries is that you differentiate between combatants and noncombatants. [We already have this. It is called wearing a military uniform.] This is precisely what Israel is failing to do and, frankly, has failed to do for many years, though never as brutally as over the past 4 months. [No, you misspelled Hamas.] This is what our country is supporting. [You darn tootin. Kill unlawful combatants and terrorists who kill civilians and bake infants in ovens.]

    It is so troubling to me to see some of you — ke and Susan, here, who I know pretty well — completely losing sight of this. Causing massive suffering to civilians is one of the principal war crimes. Israel is doing this, without question. [Jerry, you need to study the laws of armed conflict. I’m glad you aren’t a general in ours or their military. We have already had too many that weren’t good at winning but we’re good at prolonging a war.]

    I do realize that we’ve done it as well, though less dramatically and more slowly. Our blockades and embargoes of Iraq and Iran — and Venezuela, for that matter — caused great suffering, and even a substantial number of deaths, especially in Iraq. (I’m referring, in particular, to the sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s.) [Necessary, but would be obvious to more countries if we actually declared war.]

    For a third thing, Israel has special responsibilities in Gaza, because it is the occupying power. [Nope] It withdrew its forces some years ago — around 2006, I think — but kept control of the sea, the air, and the borders. It essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison. It refuses to allow the people in Gaza to form a state, while denying, thus far, that the land belongs to Israel itself. [Oh gee]

     

    I tried to answer him, too, but you were much more thorough, RH, especially with your military background. Thanks!

    • #44
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-unwra-bank-aid-4ed5e0652dd81b875055679a01a19371

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has imposed financial restrictions on the main U.N. agency providing aid in the Gaza Strip, a measure which prevented a shipment of food for 1.1 million Palestinians from reaching the war-battered enclave, the agency’s director said Friday…

    UNRWA’s director, Philippe Lazzarini, said Friday that that a convoy of food donated by Turkey has been sitting for weeks in the Israeli port city of Ashdod. The agency said that the Israeli contractor they work with received a call from Israeli customs authorities “ordering them not to process any UNRWA goods.

    That stoppage means 1,049 shipping containers of rice, flour, chickpeas, sugar and cooking oil — enough to feed 1.1 million people for one month — are stuck, even as an estimated 25% of families in Gaza face catastrophic hunger.

    • #45
  16. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    • #46
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    • #47
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    Maybe it’s only a war crime.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

    From which:

    • The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
    • For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
      1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions..
      2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
        1.  
        2. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
        3.  
        4. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
        5.  
        6. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

    The numbering got a bit mixed up when I cut it down, but fwiw.

    • #48
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    Maybe it’s only a war crime.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

    From which:

    • The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
    • For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
      1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions..
      2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
        1.  
        2. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
        3.  
        4. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
        5.  
        6. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

    The numbering got a bit mixed up when I cut it down, but fwiw.

    But it’s Hamas that is preventing them from going to safety, and stealing food and fuel from them…

    • #49
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    If it’s doing this then Hamas is also committing war crimes. But it’s not like they cancel out if both parties are doing it.  Hamas, for eg, doesn’t control Ashkelon.

    • #50
  21. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Inactive
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    I will bite for the moment. They are not intentionally killing civilians. They are not taking hostages. And they are destroying property where Hamas hides out.

    Haaretz us full of bologny. No one knows how many people have really died.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling.

    I don’t see the differences in our views that way at all. I find your viewpoint detestable and misguided and I am not at all puzzled. This is your standard type of answer.

    This is a difficult issue, when so many people find “detestable” anyone who disagrees with them.

    I do face the same challenge.  From my point of view, the Israelis are engaging in a horrible mass slaughter of women and children, right in the open.  Many people don’t see it that way, and it’s hard to remain emotionally neutral about it.

    There are many reports of Israelis taking hostages, though not in our major media.  The Israelis and their supporters would call them “detainees.”  As I understand it, the “detainees” are rounded up and held without charge in many cases, or dealt with in military courts that are much like kangaroo courts.  It is similar to what we did during the early days of the so-called War on Terror, though I think that the Israelis do it on a much larger scale.

    I don’t think that Haaretz is particularly inaccurate, but obviously you disagree.  My own impression is that this source is more truthful than most Israeli outlets.

    I note a tendency for supporters of Israel to simply disbelieve any reports that are unfavorable to Israel.  We do all have this tendency.  My own view is that the Israelis, and their press, and most of the Western press spread many false stories.  Many of these have been conceded to be false, like the beheaded babies stories.  Others simply lack credibility and have been powerfully challenged, like the mass rape allegations.  However, what you know will depend on your news sources.

    I don’t think that there’s much legitimate disagreement about the most important facts, though.  Thousands and thousands of Palestinian women and children have been killed.  Even the Voice of America (here) reported yesterday that over 29,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, mostly women and children, though the source of this is the Gaza health ministry.  As I understand it, their figures have been accurate in past conflicts.  The UN and the International Court of Justice find them credible.

    I think that the Israelis are clearly and obviously killing these civilians, including women and children, “intentionally.” They’ve been bombing them for months.  We may be using “intentionally” to mean different things.  If I were to take your position, at least as I think that I understand it, I might say that the Israelis are not killing women and children “purposefully.”

    I’m skeptical about this, but it is plausible to me.  I think that there’s a reasonable argument, as to the bombing, that the Israelis’ purpose is to kill Palestinian militants, while the civilians are so-called collateral damage.  It’s sort of like blowing up an entire bus in order to kill one guy on the bus.  One’s purpose may be just to kill the one guy, but in my view, the bomber intentionally killed everyone on the bus.

    About the huge civilian death toll — as I understand it, you can find many, many videos online of large numbers of dead Palestinians.  I haven’t looked at them myself, in any significant numbers.  It would be very unpleasant to do so.

    But I think that you should.  It’s probably around 11,000 children, 8,000 women, 29,000 total.  You seem to dismiss these reports as lacking credibility.  Research it.  Find out.

    I think that the truth, on these issues, is very ugly.  I understand why people would not want to believe such things about Israel.  It would cause one to change one’s view about the country. 

    This is what has happened to me.  I used to be pro-Israel.  I just didn’t know, and what little I heard, I dismissed.

    • #51
  22. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    For one thing, they’re preventing other people from supplying food, you know.
    [Hamas is taking the supplies and has prevented people from leaving.]

    For another thing, every single person in Gaza is not attacking them. Some did. Militants from Hamas and some other groups.
    [Hamas dresses as civilians and operates among civilians, even using them as human shields. Responsibility for civilian deaths lies with Hamas. That is why uniforms are so critical. Unlawful combatants. They do this to get an advantage, one our spineless leaders give in to but Israel does not. If this strategy only led to death on the spot for unlawful combatants with protections only for lawful combatants, we might save civilian lives.]

    Supposedly, one of the principles of modern, civilized countries is that you differentiate between combatants and noncombatants. [We already have this. It is called wearing a military uniform.] This is precisely what Israel is failing to do and, frankly, has failed to do for many years, though never as brutally as over the past 4 months. [No, you misspelled Hamas.] This is what our country is supporting. [You darn tootin. Kill unlawful combatants and terrorists who kill civilians and bake infants in ovens.]

    It is so troubling to me to see some of you — ke and Susan, here, who I know pretty well — completely losing sight of this. Causing massive suffering to civilians is one of the principal war crimes. Israel is doing this, without question. [Jerry, you need to study the laws of armed conflict. I’m glad you aren’t a general in ours or their military. We have already had too many that weren’t good at winning but we’re good at prolonging a war.]

    I do realize that we’ve done it as well, though less dramatically and more slowly. Our blockades and embargoes of Iraq and Iran — and Venezuela, for that matter — caused great suffering, and even a substantial number of deaths, especially in Iraq. (I’m referring, in particular, to the sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s.) [Necessary, but would be obvious to more countries if we actually declared war.]

    For a third thing, Israel has special responsibilities in Gaza, because it is the occupying power. [Nope] It withdrew its forces some years ago — around 2006, I think — but kept control of the sea, the air, and the borders. It essentially turned Gaza into an open-air prison. It refuses to allow the people in Gaza to form a state, while denying, thus far, that the land belongs to Israel itself. [Oh gee]

     

    I tried to answer him, too, but you were much more thorough, RH, especially with your military background. Thanks!

    I’ve tried to explain this to him several times. He doesn’t seem interested in studying the art and rules of war.  The rules of war only help us when fighting other western powers. Trying to award the protections to unlawful combatants is nothing more than useless moral preening. 

    • #52
  23. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-unwra-bank-aid-4ed5e0652dd81b875055679a01a19371

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has imposed financial restrictions on the main U.N. agency providing aid in the Gaza Strip, a measure which prevented a shipment of food for 1.1 million Palestinians from reaching the war-battered enclave, the agency’s director said Friday…

    UNRWA’s director, Philippe Lazzarini, said Friday that that a convoy of food donated by Turkey has been sitting for weeks in the Israeli port city of Ashdod. The agency said that the Israeli contractor they work with received a call from Israeli customs authorities “ordering them not to process any UNRWA goods.

    That stoppage means 1,049 shipping containers of rice, flour, chickpeas, sugar and cooking oil — enough to feed 1.1 million people for one month — are stuck, even as an estimated 25% of families in Gaza face catastrophic hunger.

    So what. Israel shouldn’t trust UNRWA.

    • #53
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Others simply lack credibility and have been powerfully challenged, like the mass rape allegations.

    How many rapes must there be for you to consider them “mass?”  Last I heard, in the US “mass shootings” means at least 4 victims.  Would you consider that there may have been 4 rapes on/around Oct 7?  Considering the size difference between the US and Israel, 1 rape might qualify as “mass.”

    • #54
  25. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    Maybe it’s only a war crime.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

    From which:

    • The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
    • For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
      1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions..
      2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
        1.  
        2. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
        3.  
        4. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
        5.  
        6. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

    The numbering got a bit mixed up when I cut it down, but fwiw.

    Geneva is carrot or stick. You want carrot or carrot. Unlawful combatants aren’t protected by Geneva Conventions 

    • #55
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I’m skeptical about this, but it is plausible to me.  I think that there’s a reasonable argument, as to the bombing, that the Israelis’ purpose is to kill Palestinian militants, while the civilians are so-called collateral damage.  It’s sort of like blowing up an entire bus in order to kill one guy on the bus.  One’s purpose may be just to kill the one guy, but in my view, the bomber intentionally killed everyone on the bus.

    If Hamas isn’t letting them leave, how is it not the fault of Hamas, no matter how many are killed?

    • #56
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    Maybe it’s only a war crime.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

    From which:

    • The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
    • For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
      1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions..
      2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
        1.  
        2. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
        3.  
        4. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
        5.  
        6. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

    The numbering got a bit mixed up when I cut it down, but fwiw.

    Geneva is carrot or stick. You want carrot or carrot. Unlawful combatants aren’t protected by Geneva Conventions

    But civilians are.  4 year olds are civilians. 

    • #57
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    How can it be genocide if they went somewhere else but they’re still alive?

    Maybe it’s only a war crime.

    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

    From which:

    • The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
    • For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
      1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions..
      2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
        1.  
        2. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
        3.  
        4. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
        5.  
        6. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

    The numbering got a bit mixed up when I cut it down, but fwiw.

    Geneva is carrot or stick. You want carrot or carrot. Unlawful combatants aren’t protected by Geneva Conventions

    But civilians are. 4 year olds are civilians.

    When civilians are endangered because of the unlawful combatants, that is also the unlawful combatants’ fault.

    • #58
  29. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-unwra-bank-aid-4ed5e0652dd81b875055679a01a19371

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has imposed financial restrictions on the main U.N. agency providing aid in the Gaza Strip, a measure which prevented a shipment of food for 1.1 million Palestinians from reaching the war-battered enclave, the agency’s director said Friday…

    UNRWA’s director, Philippe Lazzarini, said Friday that that a convoy of food donated by Turkey has been sitting for weeks in the Israeli port city of Ashdod. The agency said that the Israeli contractor they work with received a call from Israeli customs authorities “ordering them not to process any UNRWA goods.

    That stoppage means 1,049 shipping containers of rice, flour, chickpeas, sugar and cooking oil — enough to feed 1.1 million people for one month — are stuck, even as an estimated 25% of families in Gaza face catastrophic hunger.

    So what. Israel shouldn’t trust UNRWA.

    And have doubts about Turkey as well.  

    • #59
  30. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Of course Israel has committed war crimes. Your own definition includes “intentionally killing civilians,” “taking hostages,” and “unnecessarily destroying civilian property.” Israel has done all of this on a massive scale.

    I will bite for the moment. They are not intentionally killing civilians. They are not taking hostages. And they are destroying property where Hamas hides out.

    Haaretz us full of bologny. No one knows how many people have really died.

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the disconnect in our views of the present situation interesting and puzzling.

    I don’t see the differences in our views that way at all. I find your viewpoint detestable and misguided and I am not at all puzzled. This is your standard type of answer.

    This is a difficult issue, when so many people find “detestable” anyone who disagrees with them.

    I do face the same challenge. From my point of view, the Israelis are engaging in a horrible mass slaughter of women and children, right in the open. Many people don’t see it that way, and it’s hard to remain emotionally neutral about it.

    There are many reports of Israelis taking hostages, though not in our major media. The Israelis and their supporters would call them “detainees.” As I understand it, the “detainees” are rounded up and held without charge in many cases, or dealt with in military courts that are much like kangaroo courts. It is similar to what we did during the early days of the so-called War on Terror, though I think that the Israelis do it on a much larger scale.

    I don’t think that Haaretz is particularly inaccurate, but obviously you disagree. My own impression is that this source is more truthful than most Israeli outlets.

    I note a tendency for supporters of Israel to simply disbelieve any reports that are unfavorable to Israel. We do all have this tendency. My own view is that the Israelis, and their press, and most of the Western press spread many false stories. Many of these have been conceded to be false, like the beheaded babies stories. Others simply lack credibility and have been powerfully challenged, like the mass rape allegations. However, what you know will depend on your news sources.

    I don’t think that there’s much legitimate disagreement about the most important facts, though. Thousands and thousands of Palestinian women and children have been killed. Even the Voice of America (here) reported yesterday that over 29,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, mostly women and children, though the source of this is the Gaza health ministry. As I understand it, their figures have been accurate in past conflicts. The UN and the International Court of Justice find them credible.

    I think that the Israelis are clearly and obviously killing these civilians, including women and children, “intentionally.” They’ve been bombing them for months. We may be using “intentionally” to mean different things. If I were to take your position, at least as I think that I understand it, I might say that the Israelis are not killing women and children “purposefully.”

    I’m skeptical about this, but it is plausible to me. I think that there’s a reasonable argument, as to the bombing, that the Israelis’ purpose is to kill Palestinian militants, while the civilians are so-called collateral damage. It’s sort of like blowing up an entire bus in order to kill one guy on the bus. One’s purpose may be just to kill the one guy, but in my view, the bomber intentionally killed everyone on the bus.

    About the huge civilian death toll — as I understand it, you can find many, many videos online of large numbers of dead Palestinians. I haven’t looked at them myself, in any significant numbers. It would be very unpleasant to do so.

    But I think that you should. It’s probably around 11,000 children, 8,000 women, 29,000 total. You seem to dismiss these reports as lacking credibility. Research it. Find out.

    I think that the truth, on these issues, is very ugly. I understand why people would not want to believe such things about Israel. It would cause one to change one’s view about the country.

    This is what has happened to me. I used to be pro-Israel. I just didn’t know, and what little I heard, I dismissed.

    At least we haven’t bombed a “baby milk factory,” yet, but ….

    • #60
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