Palestinians Embrace Hamas

 

What will it take for the U.S. and Europe to realize that the Palestinians support Hamas? Two recent polls, taken by Palestinian organizations, verify that despite the ugliness of Hamas’ recent horrific actions (from one poll) and its mismanagement of Gaza, Palestinians still favor their rule. Here’s a summary of the most recent poll:

A public opinion poll published on November 14 showed that 75% of Palestinians support Hamas’s murder spree, including rape and beheadings, as opposed to only 13% who disapprove.

The poll, conducted by the Arab World for Research and Development (AWRAD), covered 668 respondents across the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

According to the results, 59.3% of the Palestinians expressed ‘extreme support’ for the actions of Hamas on October 7, while 15.7% said they ‘somewhat’ favored the massacre. Fewer than 13% of the Palestinians opposed the massacre.

But if you think the poll only represented Gaza, think again:

The poll also showed that 68% of the Palestinians in the West Bank said they ‘extremely support’ the butchering of Israelis, while another 14.8% said they ‘somewhat’ support it. In total, 87.7% of the Palestinians in the West Bank have a positive sentiment toward Hamas. Only 10.2% of the Palestinians living in the West Bank have a negative sentiment toward Hamas.

To show how deluded the U.S. and Europe are about creating a two-state solution, consider this data:

One month before the Hamas massacre, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research published a poll that showed that 67% of the Palestinian public opposes the idea of a ‘two-state solution’ as opposed to 32% who support it. The poll showed that a majority of 53% of the Palestinians support armed struggle against Israel. Twenty percent said they support negotiations with Israel, while another 24% expressed support for a ‘popular non-violent resistance.’ The poll, in addition, showed that if new presidential elections were held at the time, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh would receive 58% of the votes as opposed to 37% for Abbas.

A person can question the veracity of both polls shown here; Arab pollsters are not always reliable in the results they reach. Is AWRAD under the influence of Hamas? Did the pollsters intimidate the respondents to give answers favoring Hamas? These are all questions for which we have no answers.

But this is the data we have to consider. In effect, nothing has changed in attitudes toward Hamas and Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians still hate the Jews. They still desire to drive the Jews into the sea. They want the land all to themselves.

How does Israel, or anyone else, convince Biden and the Europeans that their preferred solution is naïve, deluded and will end in disaster?

In response to how the children are indoctrinated, from cdor below:

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Published in Islamist Terrorism
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  1. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    A fair observation, Mark. I assume your conclusion is to ignore the polls?

    Yes, I believe that ordinary Americans should ignore any polls as sources of reliable hard data for gauging the true degree of support for Hamas among its Muslim subjects (there are also Christians and churches in Gaza) that were taken after Hamas came to power and ordinary Palestinians had a chance to discover its true nature.

    I certainly won’t take the numbers as written, but I’m willing to believe that over fifty percent are totally cool with the attack. 

    Conversely, I am willing to believe that over 20% aren’t. 

    • #61
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Ansonia (View Comment):
    just don’t believe any ordinary “Palestinians” hate Jews so much that they welcome Hamas putting weapons and tunnels under their hospitals and day care centers, or that most of them want to stay in areas about to be attacked and are fine with Hamas shooting any of them trying to leave. When ordinary people are functioning that way, they aren’t functioning that way willingly.

    Well, you are just wrong.

    It is understandable, because you are western,  and this barbaric way of thinking is alien. Yet, it is there. It is not like anyone is putting a gun to the head of pro terror demonstrators in America.  Those are people here. Imagine the increased feelings there.

    • #62
  3. Susan Quinn Member
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    • #63
  4. Susan Quinn Member
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I’m not so sure I agree about Gazans being afraid to tell their real answers to pollsters.  Palestinians (in the modern definition) in and around the land of Israel have been attacking and killing Jews for just a little over 100 years now, and there has never really been a significant pause or change in attitude during the entire time.  It is pretty much ingrained in their culture.  There has been much progress with certain nations, such as Jordan and Egypt, but really none with the Palestinians.

    I just don’t know either, Steve. I see both sides: they are lying to save themselves, or they genuinely support Hamas. Mark’s point, that we just need to look at their historic behavior, has merit.

    • #64
  5. Ansonia Member
    Ansonia
    @Ansonia

    TBA (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn: A public opinion poll published on November 14 showed that 75% of Palestinians support Hamas’s murder spree, including rape and beheadings, as opposed to only 13% who disapprove.

    I did the boring thing and read the Gatestone Institute article, and then clicked through to the actual poll results. Imagine my surprise (none) when it didn’t actually mention murder spree, rape or beheadings.

    Not sure how reasonable that distinction is. Perhaps the avg.-Palestinian-on-the-Street doesn’t know about this, or doesn’t believe this…despite the social media postings?

    Social media is not that reliable, imo – a lot of battling agendas and little accountability. My guess is that they don’t believe a lot of this – certainly the allegations of rape. They may also be more focused on what’s happening to them in Gaza.

    Even so, the fact of the surprise attack is an intrinsic part of the poll question, and has received an after-the-fact blessing from the considerably majority of the population.

    Sure, though they probably perceive it as something other than a mad killing and rape spree. Also, public opinion in Israel fully backs Israel’s response in Gaza but that hasn’t translated into full support for Netanyahu.

    It may also be that the idea of rape and torture of your enemies is less repugnant to some peoples than others. I honestly do not know.

    Rape and torture of enemies, or the non-combatant family members of enemies, likely is appropriate, even praiseworthy behavior in some cultures. (We know in some cultures in the past, child sacrifice took place publicly. People watched as the child was brutally murdered on an alter.)

    We’ve had hints for the longest time that there’s something definitely different from us on this score about certain Islamic cultures. We tell ourselves, when we get these startling little indications of an outlook totally alien to our values (or anyway, our professed values) that we must have misheard the speaker or misunderstood him or her. Does anyone remember how shocked we were, about 10 years ago, when a Muslim woman who was also a lawyer—I mean we’re talking about someone we saw as an educated, respectable woman—openly called for men in her culture to rape the Israeli girls?

    • #65
  6. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    More specifically, Mohammad called upon the Jews to recognize him as a new (and the final) prophet. When the Jews refused to do so, he turned upon them and began preaching genocidal hatred.

    Note also that Mohammad “reinterpreted” various parts of the Bible to suit his purposes. Not to mention his “revelations” which granted him privileges to indulge his personal desires. Why Jews and Christians should have welcomed his heresies was left unexplained.

    • #66
  7. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    More precisely: The distinction was in the rules of jihad: Conquered peoples were to be given two choices: Conversion to Islam or death. Christians and Jews, as “people of the book”, were to be given an additional third choice: Submission to Muslim rule, in which they would accept being oppressed and exploited and even enslaved–and under the terms of which even the mildest request for moderation of the oppression was a breaking of the agreement and therefore justification for death.

    Jews and Christians were legitimate targets of religious wars of conquest. Furthermore, any restrictions upon or objections to Muslim proselytizing, no matter how aggressive, were taken as legitimate provocation for jihad. Of course, Christians and Jews were barred from publicly advocating for the truth and merits of their faiths.

    Jews and Christians (especially Jews) were excoriated and demonized in various passages in the Koran and the Hadith, so the claim that Islam honors “the people of the book” is dubious, to put it excruciatingly politely.

    • #67
  8. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    That is true to the extent that they accepted Christians and Jews living among them when they were at the peak of their civilization in Spain  through the levant. When that crumbled tolerance became a lot less. Probably a combination of the Crusades and the expulsion from Spain and the general deterioration of their empire made them far less tolerant. There is also a tendency among the hoi polloi to be a lot less accepting of differences than the upper classes. Note that there are no Christian churches or synagogues in any of the Muslim countries. When I was in Afghanistan in 1971 there was an Italian family who had a special permit from the king to make wine, but that was about the limit of toleration. Western women were on occasion attacked by groups of men if they were dressed “inappropriately.” There was no Jewish intelligencia as existed in earlier times in Spain and North Africa. All officers of the court were Muslims. That is the rule throughout the Muslim world.

    • #68
  9. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    According to traditional Islamic law (and there are four main schools) the testimony of a non-Muslim is worth half that of a Muslim, so you need two non-Muslim witnesses to balance one Muslim. Likewise, the testimony of a woman is worth half that of a man. (So the testimony of a non-Muslim woman is worth one quarter that of a Muslim man.)

    Finally, those non-Muslims need at least one Muslim on their side for their testimony to be accepted in court: The testimony of ten non-Muslims is insufficient without at least one Muslim in addition. Thus, a Muslim can break into a Christian girls’ school and rape and murder at will, but the testimony of every girl is insufficient to convict the rapist. There are numerous documented cases in Egypt of Muslims abducting and raping and enslaving (“converting”) young Christian girls–and doing so with impunity.

    • #69
  10. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    I saw a clip of a Palestinian mother whose kid had received a life-saving organ transplant from an Israeli donor and done by Israeli doctors saying that she hoped the boy will grow up to kill Jews and be a martyr.  I think a lot of Palestinian kids would be better off as orphans if this is what their depraved parents are teaching.

    Money does not improve their lives–they have let an unbroken string of kleptocrats steal it for half a century.  They are entirely incapable of stable, sane democratic rule and will instead always defer to demagogues who will remain safe and rich behind the lines in some other country with a good banking system while urging the populace to be martyrs to engender sympathy to release more western cash to preserve the lifestyle of their “leaders.”

    Maybe a complete beatdown and the end of the political and educational perversion is what they need.  The deaths of some very rich guys would also be salutary.

    • #70
  11. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I can see that being a problem but so far the US has not reneged on any weapons support.

    How do you gauge support and reneging? And how do you know? I am asking in earnest. Has Israel begun to run out of advanced missiles, bombs and shells yet? Is it limiting its response due to looming shortages? Has the US delayed or cancelled delivery of any armaments requested by Israel?

    I know that the US has said they will only supply 250 pound bombs rather than 2,000 bunker busters. Has this embargo started yet?

    If Bunker Busters were ok for us, they should be ok to give to Israel.

    • #71
  12. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I can see that being a problem but so far the US has not reneged on any weapons support.

    How do you gauge support and reneging? And how do you know? I am asking in earnest. Has Israel begun to run out of advanced missiles, bombs and shells yet? Is it limiting its response due to looming shortages? Has the US delayed or cancelled delivery of any armaments requested by Israel?

    I know that the US has said they will only supply 250 pound bombs rather than 2,000 bunker busters. Has this embargo started yet?

    Good question. The funding allocated for weapons passed the House and the Senate will pass it either as is or part of an expanded bill. Biden has said he will sign it. Either the House wins and its a stand alone bill or the Senate wins and they are part of larger bill. I don’t see it not going through, though it is possible.

    But my point is the type of armaments, not the funding. Aren’t the Israelis being supplied currently? If so, isn’t the US currently saying that it’s limiting the armaments that it sells to them?

    I wouldn’t be surprised if dropping batches of 250 lb bombs causes more “collateral damage” than a single bunker-buster that actually destroys the intended target.

    Yes…

    • #72
  13. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Based on what I have read over the years and as recently as this week about life and death for Muslims under Hamas, there ample reason for me to think that he will likely be afraid to tell the truth to anyone expect his/her spouse and friends he trusts with his very life, and the lives of his loved ones. In his shoes, you would lie, too, and so would I.

    A fair observation, Mark. I assume your conclusion is to ignore the polls? Do you see any other conclusions we could draw that might be helpful?

    They raised the children to became adults who would do Oct 7. That enough “polling” for me.

    • #73
  14. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    There is a rule in Islam I believe that if the later passages of the Koran contradict the earlier, the latter take precedent.  

    • #74
  15. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Ansonia (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Even though another muslim might be quite willing to kill them for being the wrong type of muslim or something, whereas the non-muslim wouldn’t.

    I’m not doubting “Palestinian” Islamic culture is barbaric. I’m also not doubting these people have been conditioned by brainwashing started in early childhood to have an insane hatred for Jews. I just don’t believe any ordinary “Palestinians” hate Jews so much that they welcome Hamas putting weapons and tunnels under their hospitals and day care centers, or that most of them want to stay in areas about to be attacked and are fine with Hamas shooting any of them trying to leave. When ordinary people are functioning that way, they aren’t functioning that way willingly. They’re being controlled by rulers using terror to control them.

    Your key phrase is “ordinary people”. I do not believe that is who we are dealing with at this point.

    • #75
  16. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    That is true to the extent that they accepted Christians and Jews living among them when they were at the peak of their civilization in Spain through the levant. When that crumbled tolerance became a lot less. Probably a combination of the Crusades and the expulsion from Spain and the general deterioration of their empire made them far less tolerant. There is also a tendency among the hoi polloi to be a lot less accepting of differences than the upper classes. Note that there are no Christian churches or synagogues in any of the Muslim countries. When I was in Afghanistan in 1971 there was an Italian family who had a special permit from the king to make wine, but that was about the limit of toleration. Western women were on occasion attacked by groups of men if they were dressed “inappropriately.” There was no Jewish intelligencia as existed in earlier times in Spain and North Africa. All officers of the court were Muslims. That is the rule throughout the Muslim world.

    And, yet, in our current weakened, self-hating culture, we seem to be driven to welcome Muslims with open arms while castigating Israel for simply defending herself. How stupid are these bright young minds in our finest academic institutions? Do they not understand that the Jews are merely in the way as the Islamists march through our entire Western civilization if we allow them?

    • #76
  17. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/20/al-shifa-hospital-and-the-pathological-distrust-of-israel/

     

    • #77
  18. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    If a Muslim Arab living under the rule of Hamas tells a pollster that he supports Hamas’ rule, it is reasonable to consider it reliable evidence that he does.

    To explain what I meant, I must first confirm that interpretation.

    Well, now I am struggling. On the one hand, if a Palestinian pollster interviews a Palestinian, the chances are/might be good that the results are reliable. The problem is that Palelstinian pollsters sometimes lie and we don’t know if Hamas has any influence with them. Now what? I think what you’re saying is that we should, instead, trust the history we know of the area, and others need to be educated in that history, rather than trusting pollsters. But what if those who are ignorant don’t want to be enlightened? Anyway, Mark say your piece…and then three lashes…

    You’ve confirmed that you believe that an Arab Muslim under Hamas rule who does not support Hamas is likely to answer honestly, if the pollster is a Palestinian. I interpreted your comment correctly.

    I don’t believe that. The reason I consider people in that group to be likely to lie has nothing to do with who the pollster is.

    Based on what I have read over the years and as recently as this week about life and death for Muslims under Hamas, there ample reason for me to think that he will likely be afraid to tell the truth to anyone except his/her spouse and friends he trusts with his very life, and the lives of his loved ones. In his shoes, you would lie, too, and so would I.

    The situation for subjects in Hamas-controlled territory is fundamentally no different with respect to expressing opposition to the authority from that in France during the terror, in Nazi Germany, in the Cultural Revolution under Mao, in the USSR under Stalin, East Germany under the Stasi, or N. Korea under Communism.

    I’m not so sure I agree about Gazans being afraid to tell their real answers to pollsters. Palestinians (in the modern definition) in and around the land of Israel have been attacking and killing Jews for just a little over 100 years now, and there has never really been a significant pause or change in attitude during the entire time. It is pretty much ingrained in their culture. There has been much progress with certain nations, such as Jordan and Egypt, but really none with the Palestinians.

    Your point is irrelevant to the question we are discussing.

    • #78
  19. Chuck Coolidge
    Chuck
    @Chuckles

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I guess Iran’s proxies will need to kill a bunch of Americans in Syria first. Maybe then they’ll pay attention?

    I don’t think so: There would be justifications and excuses galore.

    • #79
  20. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    There is a rule in Islam I believe that if the later passages of the Koran contradict the earlier, the latter take precedent.

    That is correct: I believe the arabic term, translated to English, is “abrogation”.

    • #80
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    There is a rule in Islam I believe that if the later passages of the Koran contradict the earlier, the latter take precedent.

    That is correct: I believe the arabic term, translated to English, is “abrogation”.

    The trick would then become, figuring out what is earlier and what is later.  Since, as someone mentioned, it’s not chronological.

    • #81
  22. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    There is a rule in Islam I believe that if the later passages of the Koran contradict the earlier, the latter take precedent.

    That is correct: I believe the arabic term, translated to English, is “abrogation”.

    The trick would then become, figuring out what is earlier and what is later. Since, as someone mentioned, it’s not chronological.

    I think that is well established.  I just don’t know it though.

    • #82
  23. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    It is a simple equation, to wit: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They may hate Hamas, but the hatred of Israel and Jews is a much deeper hatred. We see this constantly in the internecine conflicts between Sunni and Shia. They hate each other, but they hate the infidel even more. A Muslim is a Muslim, a non-Muslim is an infidel. A good Muslim will always side with his own kind before he sides with an infidel. That is the law.

    Isn’t it true that in orthodox Islam, or at least a major version of it, Jews and Christians are not infidels but People of the Book? Subject to a special tax but not to the sword. Unlike a Muslim who turns away from the faith, who must be executed.

    That’s what I remember always reading, anyway.

    There are the hadith (follow on rules), and there is the Koran. Many people are confused by the Koran because it is not organized chronologically. So in parts it praised the Jews as you say, and in parts it talks about killing them. Early on Mohammed thought the Jews would join up so he was nice, and when they didn’t he was pretty mad. That’s why you see the mixed messages.

    There is a rule in Islam I believe that if the later passages of the Koran contradict the earlier, the latter take precedent.

    That is correct: I believe the arabic term, translated to English, is “abrogation”.

    The trick would then become, figuring out what is earlier and what is later. Since, as someone mentioned, it’s not chronological.

    I think that is well established. I just don’t know it though.

    A hasty internet search turns up websites that give that information. Just search for “Koran chronological order”.

    Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer and others may have written about this, in conjunction with the problem of abrogation.

    • #83
  24. Terence Smith Coolidge
    Terence Smith
    @TerrySmith

    @SusanQuinn can I agree with your conclusions without agreeing with this specific bit of evidence?

    On the polls: “A person can question the veracity of both polls shown here.”

    The polls are questionable. As alluded to in prior posts, in the linked poll  many of the questions seem loaded and designed to elicit a particular response.  There is also the question of anonymity and retribution.  Heck, I am frequently reluctant to answer telephone polls as I don’t trust them to keep it anonymous. Here in the US, the worst that would happen is unsolicited request for donations. There I might get shot or my family denied food or treatment.

    On disbelieving and downplaying the atrocities on 10/7: In the following, I am not referring to the psychopaths (mostly marxist)  in our midst that lie as a standard operating procedure. Back in the pre-internet 80’s, an ex-navy coworker’s initial reaction to an Iranian airliner being shot down was that the Iranian mullah’s were so evil they shot down their own passenger jet to cause an incident. He was patriotic and strongly motivated to believe our Navy would not do such an appalling thing. After a few days, the US admitted the crew of the Vincennes mistook it for a threat and shot it down.  A lot of pro-palestinians are also strongly motivated to disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes and dismiss it as Israeli propaganda. “Being in denial” is a pretty common human trait and well in evidence online.

    I otherwise think I agree with you in that there is no obvious solution within or coming out of the Palestinians. Israel has tried occupation of Gaza and the West bank and then they’ve tried a quasi-two state solution and neither were acceptable.  What will happen once Hamas is eliminated is hard to foresee.

    “To show how deluded the U.S. and Europe are about creating a two-state solution,…”. This is the state department pretending to be competent. They don’t want to admit they have no answer. 

    A counter argument to my comment on the polls. In one of the questions , 75% of the respondents said they wanted a “national unity” government other than Hamas or the Palestinian authority.  (IE anyone else has to be better than who is ruling us now). Sounds accurate to me.

    • #84
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Terence Smith (View Comment):

    “To show how deluded the U.S. and Europe are about creating a two-state solution,…”. This is the state department pretending to be competent. They don’t want to admit they have no answer. 

    A counter argument to my comment on the polls. In one of the questions , 75% of the respondents said they wanted a “national unity” government other than Hamas or the Palestinian authority.  (IE anyone else has to be better than who is ruling us now). Sounds accurate to me.

    But as with some in the US rating Biden poorly because they think he’s not leftist ENOUGH, at least some Palestinians might be against Hamas because they think Hamas isn’t bloodthirsty ENOUGH.

    • #85
  26. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Terence Smith (View Comment):

    @ SusanQuinn can I agree with your conclusions without agreeing with your evidence?

    On the polls: “A person can question the veracity of both polls shown here.”

    The polls are questionable. As alluded to in prior posts, in the linked poll many of the questions seem loaded and designed to elicit a particular response. This is also the question of anonymity and retribution.

    I’m not very skeptical of these polls, for they only reinforce what we’ve known for decades by the behavior of the Palestinians.  Besides, I don’t think I’ve ever once in my life heard a poll with encouraging results from Palestinians.  They’ve always come up with these same answers – they want to wipe out the Jews and they celebrate every terrorist act against them.  We don’t really need an electron microscope to detect their intentions.  The other abundantly obvious evidence is that all the other Arab countries despise Palestinians more than the Israelis do.  They have been literally kicked out of at least three Arab countries that I can think of off-hand.

    • #86
  27. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Terence Smith (View Comment):

    “To show how deluded the U.S. and Europe are about creating a two-state solution,…”. This is the state department pretending to be competent. They don’t want to admit they have no answer.

    It is an obscenity to call the piles of dead bodies that area has accrued over the last fifty plus years a ‘peace process’. 

     

    • #87
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