Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 40 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
Crocodile Tears and Bogus Morality
I fully understand. The Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian women and children by the thousands, so there has to be a narrative to justify that action. It is interesting to see that Ricochet is almost fully on board with participation in that narrative. – Ricochet comment
I am fully “on board” with “the narrative” that Hamas needs to be destroyed. I would hope that Palestinians (a) heed calls to evacuate when told and (b) act to isolate and abandon the self-aggrandizing (now-wealthy) terrorists they elected to hasten the end of the campaign. In any event, civilian deaths are ultimately the fault of those who started the war.
Civilian casualties in the prosecution of a war of necessity are unavoidable. The US killed far more Japanese civilians than American civilians killed by Japan. Britain killed more unarmed Germans than Britons killed in the Blitz. There was no war referee to say that the war had to stop when the casualties became proportionate. Nor has anybody come up with a means for conducting a war in which there is not an inherent risk to noncombatants.
However, inflicting civilian casualties by intentionally rounding up and executing civilians is unambiguously wrong and qualitatively different. As a matter of law and morality, collateral human damage done in combat operations by the Wehrmacht is different from the SS lining up civilians for mass execution or transport to death camps. Heavy bombing of St. Lo or Caen before the Normandy landings was probably far more indiscriminate than what Israel is doing and will continue to do in Gaza because (a) the Allies could not warn French civilians to flee the imminent invasion because the location was secret; (b) those civilians were our allies, and (c) the technology was not as precise. So how is Israel more culpable than the Allied forces of WWII with respect to the prospect of civilian casualties?
The open joy with which Gaza terrorists abused and killed their victims reflects both the true nature of Hamas and the depravity of Palestinian culture such that another round of bogus negotiations was never going to be an answer. This is the war Hamas sought and must be fought to completion. Israel is clearly far more intent on avoiding civilian deaths than Hamas and its fan club which openly welcomes “martyrs” for their potential PR value.
Why do so many sentient adults adopt the weirdly racist notion that Palestinians really don’t know any better and cannot be held accountable because of their victim status whereas Israelis must have Vulcan-like emotional control despite unacceptable inhumane provocations? This is tiresome tiny-brained wokethink yet depressingly commonplace.
Lastly, to be blunt, why am I required to care about Palestinians at all? Over just the last few years, Muslims have killed two million other Muslims from the Maghreb to the Pakistani tribal lands. Nobody marches. No grand conferences of Muslim leaders to end the slaughter. No introspection, no self-critical examination in the Islamic world. Nor any condemnation of what the likes of Boko Haram and others have done to innocent Christians. And no recognition of the uniquely evil nature of the actions of Gazans on Oct 7. Out of that large menu of victims, only the Gazans deserve my interest and pity? How do they rate an appearance anywhere near the top of the list?
Other Arabs don’t seem to much like them. Palestinians are barred from Egypt, which (a) refused to accept the return of Gaza from Israel and (b) has built a serious border wall against Gazans that would make Trump envious. All 300,000 Palestinians were kicked out of Kuwait after the first Gulf War for openly cheering Saddam’s invasion. Palestinian political actions threatened the stability of Jordan, which has renounced claims on the West Bank mostly to keep from having to add more of them. In Lebanon, Palestinians naturally supported the more destructive elements to make that place a permanent warzone and, (perhaps most importantly from my narrow personal perspective), they cheered and gave candy to their kids when thousands of Americans died on 9/11.
All of this is why I find expressions of deep sympathy for Palestinian war casualties inherently suspect and transparently pretextual. There are a lot more people out there deserving of sympathy, starting with the Israeli families and communities attacked.
Published in War
The quote at the top of the OP comes from Ricochet’s token anti-Semite. I guess this is an example of free speech, although if lies of this kind were spouted about blacks or gays, this commenter would immediately be banned. There cannot be any doubt about that.
The quote at the top of the OP comes from Ricochet’s token anti-Semite. I guess this is an example of free speech, although if lies of this kind were spouted about blacks or gays, this commenter would immediately be banned. There cannot be any doubt about that.
Many of the actual Hamas people are probably getting buried alive in their tunnels, and good riddance.
Oh, and:
I’ve been looking at the pro-“Palestine” demonstrations in Massachusetts and elsewhere, and I’ve come to conclusion that the number one most important message Israel needs to get out to the entire world is contained in a simple sentence: The Gazans have had their own elected government, Hamas, since 2005.
I am positive that the wide dissemination of that information, that simple uncluttered fact, would end the demonstrations of at least half of the rioters.
The rioters keep saying that Israel is “occupying” Gaza. It’s not.
The point needs to be made succinctly, and it needs to be made by itself to give it emphasis.
The New York Times. A light, in the darkness.
I just heard Dr. Michael Oren on Hugh Hewitt. Former ambassador from Israel to the United States. He knows everybody. Perfect English. He said that a senior American journalist just told him that this used to be about Israel for the Biden administration and now it’s about Michigan. These people make me sick.
https://embassies.gov.il/washington/AboutTheEmbassy/Pages/former-ambassador-michael-oren.aspx
What good are Democrats?
You are very mistaken. If a Ricochet member insults another Ricochet member they may be sanctioned, but having negative opinions about groups is not a violation of the rules. The person I believe is the source for that quote has also repeatedly opined that a large portion of blacks are functionally mentally retarded and has written again and again about his disapproval of homosexuality and heterosexuals who do not condemn homosexuality. It is about free speech, as long as you aren’t beating up on another member.
I disagree. They don’t care. I finally grokked the the Israeli “occupation” the scum are worked up about isn’t the non-existent occupation of Gaza, but Israel itself. The State of Israel was created on land that belonged to the Arabs, so Israel is an occupier (so they say).
Hogwash and bilge water.
As I understand the mentality, Spain, Portugal, southeastern Italy, Greece and everything in Europe south of Vienna have been stolen from their rightful Muslim owners. They invented the Brezhnev doctrine–once we steal/conquer/colonize a place it is ours forever. No takebacks.
In “international law” such as it is, duration of occupation seems to confer ownership which is why the UN (unlike Harvard) is not debating whether the USA should be turned over to Native American tribal councils. So every day Israel continues to exist, the more its ownership is confirmed.
And the other half are protesting the Jewish “occupation” of the Jewish state of Israel. That point should be clear to world, but needs to be repeated often. These people want Jews dead every bit as much as the Nazis did.
I wish I could attribute it to the famous Mark Twain dictum:
“No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.”
but unfortunately, it isn’t as benign as limited intelligence, it is more sinister….evil is more purposeful and b/c it isn’t limited intelligence, more dangerous.
I wish I had been listening closer because a guest on WVLK’s morning show just quoted some Muslim authority, at least one authority and maybe more, who issued some proclamation(s) that stated, “there are no civilians in Israel”. I guess that makes all of Israel legitimate targets. I guess there are also no civilians in Gaza or most of the Muslim world. We all play by the same rules, right?
That is exactly right. As with so many things, strategic ambiguity and dog whistles are the friends of the terrorists’ friends, and even of the unwary. (After all, if Israel actually were “occupying Gaza,” they wouldn’t need to invade it, would they now?) 😁
Same with “From the River to the Sea! Palestine Shall Be Free” Never mind that at least a considerable plurality of the ignorant but useful idiots foaming at the mouth and screaming the phrase in the streets have no idea what it means, and couldn’t find either the river or the sea on a map if they used both hands and you gave them a flashlight.
Here’s the river:
Here’s the sea:
Hard to see how you squeeze a “Free Palestine” in there without, you know, actual genocide. (As opposed to the pretend genocide that’s the subject of much discussion these days.)
Great post. And it would have been such even without the unattributed member comment at the start. Because the post stands on its own to clearly refute the major arguments used on this site by the
(very) fewcouple of members who take the other side and who depend–in one case–on the above-mentioned “strategic ambiguity” to fend off too much meaningful discussion and too many rational conclusions, and–on the other–who resorts to snark and innuendo to condescend to the rest of us while casting this site as a bunch of knuckle-dragging warmongers with regrettable progressive tendencies and an excess of emotional nutjobbery, especially on the female side.Bravo, @oldbathos.
I get it. You can say anything you want about Jews as long as you don’t attack a particular Jew here . So Goebbels was okay since he never propagandized about any particular German Jew but only about Jews in general. And Hitler’s speeches were okay since they were only about Jews in general. Thanks for the clarification.
I know that’s true of the rioters in general, but I am convinced half of them would stop if they realized that Israel is not responsible for the poverty and/or injustice in the Gaza strip.
I know from listening to them that they do not understand the actual legal relationship between Gaza and Israel.
I believe some significant fraction is anti-Israel because they do not understand the legal relationship of Gaza and Israel.
This percentage would calm down if supporters of Israel could get that message through clearly.
I am positive I’m right about this.
It wouldn’t cost anybody anything to work on it as an important pro-Israel step to take.
No-many Muslims accept the two truths theory. For them God isn’t about truth, but power. Of course, some liberal journalists (but I repeat myself) have a similarly tenuous relationship with truth:
“Fighting dishonesty with dishonesty is sometimes the right thing for advocates to do, yes”
Matt Yglesias.
And you can say what you want about Palestinians, Iranians, Muslims, Christians, atheists, progressives, libertarians, globalists, neo-cons, Never Trumpers, feminists, Russians, Ukrainians, and more as people have been doing for many years. Ricochet is not intended to be a safe space where any group identity is safe from being criticized. But look, I don’t want to derail this thread into this side discussion. If you want to continue this, Joshua, perhaps you should write a fresh post to debate the moderation of the site. There are a number of people who think the moderation is poor here, so it could be a popular post.
Best for such things to collide with truth and reason out here in the bright light of day.
My experience from pointing it out to some of them is that they don’t care, for reason I gave above.
I know that’s true for a lot and perhaps most of the anti-Israel protestors. But I am convinced that a significant fraction of the current group of protestors does not know this and that their opinions would change if they did.
I was being sarcastic when I said, “We all play by the same rules . . . ” I know they don’t, but it would be entertaining to hear those scum squeal like stuck pigs if Israel should decide there are no civilians in Gaza.
Of course, the problem is this is a very dangerous time for Jews in general, not Jews in particular on Ricochet. And the Sunday people are next. Maybe it’s time for the West to stand up for itself against the forces arrayed against it. I hope the member quoted in the post had this comment flagged for the calumny it is to Israel, at the least. Bearing false witness should be called out as this post so ably does.
You would get more clarification if you had read more carefully.
It came from the second one.
I don’t bother to read his comments usually. I saw it only because it was quoted so I went back to read it.
What makes you think that, Marci? Why would that make a difference?
You forgot “colonization” and “the global south” for popular buzz words.
I’ve come to the conclusion that assuming no longer counts when you know it’s not good faith. And “habit” is a throw-away word.
Yes, I think this is the actual meaning of good faith.