How Do We Reach Such People?

 

The depravity of Hamas is shocking but not surprising. The kneejerk supportive reaction of many Muslims, even many American Muslims, is also not surprising given the structural resistance within that creed for critical introspection.  However, the number of non-Muslim Westerners who cheered the Hamas atrocities—and the intensity of that support–was a shocking and terrifying surprise. Affirming intentionally inhumane behavior is not a matter of ideological or geopolitical disagreement, nor in the case of non-Muslim American college kids, was it a function of defensive religious partisanship.  Such people are characterologically and cognitively deformed.  How can Americans get that way?

Could this really be merely the result of the bumper-sticker level of dialog on college campuses with its dogmatic categories based on race, sexual “identity” definitions of the moment, epithets of “denier,” “hater” or “____phobic” hurled at dissidents?

The one-size-fits-all category of oppressor/victim informed the dubious ideas that those who burned cities and injured people after the death of George Floyd should not be held culpable and that incarceration for violent minority offenders is unjust regardless of legal and factual guilt or innocence.  But can it really cause people to approve the dismemberment of babies, rape, torture, and murder?

George Orwell pondered the effect of dumbing down language in Politics and the English Language:

Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts.

What we are witnessing is not merely the depressing fact that younger Americans have absorbed some bad ideological content but that their mode of thinking and knowing itself appears to have been significantly damaged.  What do you do with people who are being conditioned to become immune to natural human inclinations, common sense, evidence, logic, or original thought?

The sheer insanity of LGBTQ+ support for Hamas, or #MeToo devotees cheering rapists and misogyny, makes sense only if truth and justice are nothing more than allegiance to the workings of The Narrative in the moment.  Resisting oppressors is justice and intersectional analysis denies or postpones even the most obvious conflicts of interest. That’s nuts.

The bumper-sticker thought processes of the woke seem to be the natural excretions of spectacularly vapid habits of mind as found in the works of prominent word salad emitters as if to validate Orwell’s notion that bad language and defective thought are both cause and effect.  First, here is a sample of ethical deep thoughts from the incomparable Judith Butler:

[W]e must recognize that ethics requires us to risk ourselves precisely at moments of unknowingness, when what forms us diverges from what lies before us, when our willingness to become undone in relation to others constitutes our chance of becoming human. To be undone by another is a primary necessity, an anguish, to be sure, but also a chance–to be addressed, claimed, bound to what is not me, but also to be moved, to be prompted to act, to address myself elsewhere, and so to vacate the self-sufficient “I” as a kind of possession. If we speak and try to give an account from this place, we will not be irresponsible, or, if we are, we will surely be forgiven.

So there, Kant, Aristotle, Maimonides, and Mill– take that!  (Extra credit for diagramming the second sentence in the sample above.)  Clarity in wokedom is reserved for politically useful artificial categories and identification of enemies.  If in pursuing ethical inquiry, we were to make the mistake of thinking of ourselves as individuals expected to act on a well-informed conscience ready to work through even grey areas and nuance, then Robin DiAngelo is on the spot to push us each back into our assigned roles and race-defined categories:

Being good or bad is not relevant. Racism is a multilayered system embedded in our culture. All of us are socialized into the system of racism. Racism cannot be avoided. Whites have blind spots on racism, and I have blind spots on racism. Racism is complex, and I don’t have to understand every nuance of the feedback to validate that feedback. Whites are / I am unconsciously invested in racism. Bias is implicit and unconscious.

Like mental patients who have constructed defenses against whatever intrusive realities might threaten the carefully crafted fictional world, we have a growing mass of malignant loons reinforcing each other’s delusion in a sea of stupid filled with linguistic garbage.  There is growing evidence that the woke are less happy and more likely to report mental disorders (especially young left-leaning women).  Does that make them more or less amenable to a new outlook? How do we roll back the rise of insanity and militant incompetence to be able to reach and rescue such people?  Do we need a new language that provides both therapy and apostolate?  Are we looking at a moment of momentous opportunity for uplifting reforms or the brink of despair?

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  1. GrannyDude Member
    GrannyDude
    @GrannyDude

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):
    Now tell me why criticism of Israel’s actions or policies is only and always blaming everything on The Joos.

    Before October 7th and its sequelae, it was perhaps remotely possible for a nice, progressive person to separate anti-Zionism (or criticism of Israel’s actions or policies) from anti-Semitism. No longer.

    Now, it requires willful blindness. 

    Jewish students—not Israeli students, just Jewish ones—were trapped in the library at Cooper Union while the “mostly peacefuls” pounded on the glass walls.   Who doubts that, if they’d been able to get their hands on their fellow art students, they’d have pounded them? 

     The choice is forced upon us: I choose the Jews (or Joos—what’s up with that?) in the library over the thugs attempting to get at them. I choose the flawed state of Israel over the thug state of Hamas/Gaza.  I choose the Jews of my own community over the faraway innocents of my gentile neighbor’s misty-eyed imagination.  In the binary choice being presented to me by the bien pensant of our fine universities between “Israel bears all responsibility for the deaths and suffering” and “Hamas-led Gaza bears all responsibility for the deaths and suffering” I condemn Hamas and support Israel. 

     

    • #61
  2. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    How many of those demonstrators would say they were there to support Hamas and how many would say they were there to support Palestinians? The first step to reaching people is to hear what they are actually saying. jmho.

    How many demonstrators say that the atrocities were unacceptable, that they understand that an Israeli response is unavoidable, urge Palestinians to eschew support for terrorism and express the hope that this message is so widely accepted and shared such that Israelis will feel less threatened and less inclined to inflict damage?

    Do you really want to reach people who don’t already agree with you?

    The point of the OP is that it is impossible to reach people who shoehorn themselves into tiny-brained dualities like ‘oppressor/oppressed’ in which the oppressed are relived of all moral responsibility and are said to be helplessly forced to react to the real/imagined depredations committed by the oppressor.   Pretending that it is OK to uncritically endorse inhumane acts, moral depravity and a sick death-cult culture doesn’t seem like a constructive start. 

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?  

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    I have listened. The demonstrators call upon me to pass judgment on Israel for adverse effects due to its mere existence and they also tell me that I may not judge the behavior of the “victim” group.  My response is that if my only choice is between endorsing a sick, appalling, terrorist cult or just looking the other way when Israel inflicts a terrible punishment, then I gotta go with option B.  No end of terrorism, no peace.  No end to the cult of martyrdom, no peace. 

    • #62
  3. Globalitarian Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    How many of those demonstrators would say they were there to support Hamas and how many would say they were there to support Palestinians? The first step to reaching people is to hear what they are actually saying. jmho.

    How many demonstrators say that the atrocities were unacceptable, that they understand that an Israeli response is unavoidable, urge Palestinians to eschew support for terrorism and express the hope that this message is so widely accepted and shared such that Israelis will feel less threatened and less inclined to inflict damage?

    Do you really want to reach people who don’t already agree with you?

    The point of the OP is that it is impossible to reach people who shoehorn themselves into tiny-brained dualities like ‘oppressor/oppressed’ in which the oppressed are relived of all moral responsibility and are said to be helplessly forced to react to the real/imagined depredations committed by the oppressor. Pretending that it is OK to uncritically endorse inhumane acts, moral depravity and a sick death-cult culture doesn’t seem like a constructive start.

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    I have listened. The demonstrators call upon me to pass judgment on Israel for adverse effects due to its mere existence and they also tell me that I may not judge the behavior of the “victim” group. My response is that if my only choice is between endorsing a sick, appalling, terrorist cult or just looking the other way when Israel inflicts a terrible punishment, then I gotta go with option B. No end of terrorism, no peace. No end to the cult of martyrdom, no peace.

    Or bringing it home, no return of hostages, no peace.  It’s not up to Israel to sit on its hands and to plead or pay for hostages.  Or for that matter to beg not to be attacked again.

    • #63
  4. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?  

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    Unfortunately, most people do not change their minds on fundamental matters no matter how many facts they are presented with. Their views are generally formed and hardened in childhood and youth, the most so because schools and universities now operate more as indoctrination centers than as educational institutions.

    However, we can influence people who have not yet formed opinions.

    • #64
  5. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    Unfortunately, most people do not change their minds on fundamental matters no matter how many facts they are presented with. Their views are generally formed and hardened in childhood and youth, the most so because schools and universities now operate more as indoctrination centers than as educational institutions.

    However, we can influence people who have not yet formed opinions.

    The left routinely acts to make dissidents uncomfortable.  The process of distilling complex issues into tiny-brained binaries (Saving the Planet v. “Deniers; Social Justice v. “white supremacists”; Preversion of the Week v. “haters”..etc).  Why aren’t pro-Palestinians “baby beheaders”, “rape apologists” etc.? It may be distasteful to descend to the level of the mental flatlanders but I see no reason why they should not be made uncomfortable with the fact that the world does not actually fit in their little boxes.

    • #65
  6. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    Unfortunately, most people do not change their minds on fundamental matters no matter how many facts they are presented with. Their views are generally formed and hardened in childhood and youth, the most so because schools and universities now operate more as indoctrination centers than as educational institutions.

    However, we can influence people who have not yet formed opinions.

    The left routinely acts to make dissidents uncomfortable. The process of distilling complex issues into tiny-brained binaries (Saving the Planet v. “Deniers; Social Justice v. “white supremacists”; Preversion of the Week v. “haters”..etc). Why aren’t pro-Palestinians “baby beheaders”, “rape apologists” etc.? It may be distasteful to descend to the level of the mental flatlanders but I see no reason why they should not be made uncomfortable with the fact that the world does not actually fit in their little boxes.

    I’m reposting this starting at 2:21 so as to highlight the Occamists’ view of freedom (self-creation, unconstrained either internally or externally by reality (truth)). The whole thing should be watched (16:40 minutes), but at least these four minutes to get a sense of who we’re dealing with:

    It’s the secularism that’s killing the West and the accompanying power behind moral indifferentism that’s so attractive to humans (“you will be as gods” — deciding for yourselves what is right and wrong. Satan may be evil, but he’s no dummy).

    This is why I’ve thought all along that only a widespread reawakening (conversion to the West’s Christian foundation) will “save” our civilization. And this is a ground-up, grassroots effort, which is why it’s so very difficult (requiring that heroic effort I mentioned earlier) and literally impossible without the grace of God.

    Truth wins in the end, but we may not be here to see it for ourselves. Hopefully we’re getting the view from a (much!) better place.

    • #66
  7. GrannyDude Member
    GrannyDude
    @GrannyDude

    There isn’t one big group I want to reach (or do my small part in reaching) but several:

    1.)  Jews and Israeli visitors—I want them to know I am with them. This is the first reason to wear the Star of David on my person, put the Israeli flag on my  mailbox, etc. Visible solidarity and support.

    2.) Timid people who are horrified by what is happening to Jews, but unwilling to say so unless they perceive a safe consensus. Visible solidarity and support for Jews might allow these folks to, as the saying goes, grow a pair.

    3.) Anti-Semites of various ilks—if I am visibly “Jewish,” I can draw their fire. I hope to have the discussions, arguments and confrontations that might be more painful and threatening for my Jewish friends and neighbors. 

     

     

     

     

     

    • #67
  8. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    All the hair-splitting excuses of being anti-Zionist, not anti-Semetic, or “free Palestine” from the invading colonialists, etc. is just BS.  It’s the attempt of the evil, or the weak-minded to sugar-coat evil to modern Western sensibilities.  The weak-minded are susceptible because they are easily led, ignorant of facts, swallow perspective/opinion as fact, or just dumber than they want to appear (i.e. “Woke”).  I’m past being polite, or accepting any excuses for any “Palestinian”-coddling.  First of all, their arguments are all built on historical lies.  Secondly, they have shown themselves incapable of playing nice and living by the standards we demand of Israel (and Israel demands of itself).

    I’m done with all their lies, excuses, “reasoned” arguments, etc.  If anyone can make any excuse for the so-called Palestinian cause after what was done by Hamas, and (this REALLY matters) the cheerful reaction of the Gazans to the tortured, brutalized, murdered Israelis brought back as trophies by those evil devils, then there is no point in engagement.  And that’s before we even look at the context of Hamas’, etc. track record against their fellow Muslims.

    October 7th hardened me and I’ve only gotten harder as time has gone by.  I have no interest in any argument for them or their supporters other than destruction.  If they unconditionally surrender and fully repent of their actions  then mercy and reconciliation.  Until then, remorseless destruction until they lose the willingness to continue with their evil barbarity.  And that goes for the enemy amongst us too.   They have to have real pain inflicted on them, including being fired from any position of responsibility (Harvard and US Gov’t I’m looking at you).  And they must be told in no uncertain terms, they can talk like this, but they are wrong and liars.  If they are not citizens, they must be deported and never allowed to return.  It will be a different kind of battlefield, but it still calls for clear-eyed resolve.  The weapons being words and actions within the law.

    • #68
  9. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    Unfortunately, most people do not change their minds on fundamental matters no matter how many facts they are presented with. Their views are generally formed and hardened in childhood and youth, the most so because schools and universities now operate more as indoctrination centers than as educational institutions.

    However, we can influence people who have not yet formed opinions.

    The left routinely acts to make dissidents uncomfortable. The process of distilling complex issues into tiny-brained binaries (Saving the Planet v. “Deniers; Social Justice v. “white supremacists”; Preversion of the Week v. “haters”..etc). Why aren’t pro-Palestinians “baby beheaders”, “rape apologists” etc.? It may be distasteful to descend to the level of the mental flatlanders but I see no reason why they should not be made uncomfortable with the fact that the world does not actually fit in their little boxes.

    That is one effective tool against the enemy amongst us.

    • #69
  10. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    How do we break people out of such self-imposed cognitive limitations?

    The zeal with which the kidnap posters have been attacked suggests that many want to remain within the tiny-brained binary and that perhaps we should present them with more instances of facts that make that binary very uncomfortable.

    Unfortunately, most people do not change their minds on fundamental matters no matter how many facts they are presented with. Their views are generally formed and hardened in childhood and youth, the most so because schools and universities now operate more as indoctrination centers than as educational institutions.

    However, we can influence people who have not yet formed opinions.

    Might help to make sure K-12 teachers aren’t spouting off on specifics or generalities. 

    • #70
  11. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining. 

    • #71
  12. Buckpasser Member
    Buckpasser
    @Buckpasser

    Abraham tried to get G-d to spare Sodom if he found ten righteous men in the city.  He couldn’t find them.  There are not ten righteous men in Gaza.  Gaza should not be spared.

    • #72
  13. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    Before October 7th and its sequelae, it was perhaps remotely possible for a nice, progressive person to separate anti-Zionism (or criticism of Israel’s actions or policies) from anti-Semitism. No longer.

    But you never did Granny Dude.  You never did.

    • #73
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it.  You do fund and support Israel.  When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    • #74
  15. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps). That is a war crime. You can even look it up. Attacking those is not a war crime, even if civilians end up killed.

    You don’t like that. We get it.

    We also get that if over 44,000 Americans (rough equivalent of the 1,400 killed in Israel) were killed in a terrorist attack the administration would have to justify to Americans why we shouldn’t just nuke the place the terrorists are based. (Hyperbole, of course.)

    • #75
  16. Globalitarian Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    Where’d you get that from.  You used an egg timer?

    • #76
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this?  I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof?  Why do you believe this?

    • #77
  18. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    It is simpler to list infrastructure in Gaza where Hamas does not use civilians as shields.  

    • #78
  19. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    Where’s the proof that a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza?

    • #79
  20. Keith Lowery Coolidge
    Keith Lowery
    @keithlowery

    Zafar (View Comment):
    You do fund and support Israel.  When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    What is your proof that Israel is killing a child every ten minutes and that it is their intent to kill children?

    • #80
  21. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    I believe it because it’s the truth and it’s well known, though I doubt you’d accept sources such as the Israelis and U.S. intelligence. But how about this: a few years ago there was outrage that Israel bombed what was reported as the Associated Press offices in Gaza because Israel didn’t like the press coverage. Turns out the office space also contained a Hamas command and control center, which the AP admitted.

    There are numerous surveillance photos of Hamas rocket launchers, etc., next to mosques, schools, and so on. And the air strike on the refugee camp that killed some Hamas leaders? There were numerous secondary explosion in the camp (well, in the tunnels under the camp) that were reported as munition dumps exploding from the air strike.

    ETA: Here are a few articles from the current war:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-publishes-aerial-images-of-hamas-rocket-launchers-near-schools-mosques/

    https://www.livemint.com/news/world/israelhamas-war-israeli-forces-eliminate-hamas-islamic-jihad-operatives-in-a-tunnel-near-al-ansar-mosque-in-jenin-11697941668266.html

    https://www.oleantimesherald.com/commentary/hamas-rocket-launch-sites-near-mosques-schools/article_903efa16-7416-11ee-a887-174cbbc0c5e1.html

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12660873/Hamas-Israel-satellite-images.html

    Here’s one from last year: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-accuses-hamas-hiding-weapons-depots-near-civilian-buildings-2022-07-27/

    Here’s one from 2014: https://www.haaretz.com/2014-08-26/ty-article/.premium/mosques-used-for-military-ops-say-hamas-pows/0000017f-e796-d97e-a37f-f7f722cd0000

    Here’s the story on the AP, published before they admitted they know Hamas shared the building: https://nypost.com/2021/05/17/if-ap-really-didnt-know-it-shared-space-with-hamas-why-trust-its-reporting/

    • #81
  22. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    We also fund and support the Palestinians.  Wait, don’t tell me: that makes us complicit in Hamas’ butchery, too.  Always everyone is to blame except those doing the actual bombing, killing, and raping.

    • #82
  23. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    No.  That’s all on Hamas.  Using their own children as shields.  They started it in the most grotesque, evil and barbaric fashion possible.  And BTW, we do send money to the Palestinians.  We shouldn’t, but we do.  Biden wants to send more “humanitarian” aid.  Humanitarian that will come back as rockets.  

     

    • #83
  24. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    You sound like the communists that I used to know, who refused to admit that the USSR and China had gulags and secret police, that they mistreated and imprisoned and murdered dissidents, and so on. They all knew the truth, but pretended that they did not. Just as they pretended to be willing to see evidence.

    • #84
  25. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    • #85
  26. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    I believe it because it’s the truth and it’s well known, though I doubt you’d accept sources such as the Israelis and U.S. intelligence. But how about this: a few years ago there was outrage that Israel bombed what was reported as the Associated Press offices in Gaza because Israel didn’t like the press coverage. Turns out the office space also contained a Hamas command and control center, which the AP admitted.

    There are numerous surveillance photos of Hamas rocket launchers, etc., next to mosques, schools, and so on. And the air strike on the refugee camp that killed some Hamas leaders? There were numerous secondary explosion in the camp (well, in the tunnels under the camp) that were reported as munition dumps exploding from the air strike.

    ETA: Here are a few articles from the current war:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-publishes-aerial-images-of-hamas-rocket-launchers-near-schools-mosques/

    https://www.livemint.com/news/world/israelhamas-war-israeli-forces-eliminate-hamas-islamic-jihad-operatives-in-a-tunnel-near-al-ansar-mosque-in-jenin-11697941668266.html

    https://www.oleantimesherald.com/commentary/hamas-rocket-launch-sites-near-mosques-schools/article_903efa16-7416-11ee-a887-174cbbc0c5e1.html

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12660873/Hamas-Israel-satellite-images.html

    Here’s one from last year: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-accuses-hamas-hiding-weapons-depots-near-civilian-buildings-2022-07-27/

    Here’s one from 2014: https://www.haaretz.com/2014-08-26/ty-article/.premium/mosques-used-for-military-ops-say-hamas-pows/0000017f-e796-d97e-a37f-f7f722cd0000

    Here’s the story on the AP, published before they admitted they know Hamas shared the building: https://nypost.com/2021/05/17/if-ap-really-didnt-know-it-shared-space-with-hamas-why-trust-its-reporting/

    Watch the Hamas butchers self-recorded videos and the recordings of their live streams it you can’t accept the sources above.  Watch them torture children by cutting off digits and other body parts.  Watch them rape girls so hard their pelvis break and they are streaming blood between their legs, then have their legs broken.  Watch them cut off the heads of babies and children.  I could go on listing the snuff porn that Hamas themselves uploaded, but I won’t.  No decent human being can defend them and the “civilians” who cheered the return of their “conquering heroes” with their grotesque trophies.   Never mind the evidence presented by the Israelis of abominations such as a baby being cooked alive in an oven.

    • #86
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    We also fund and support the Palestinians.

    But you don’t fund Hamas.

    Always everyone is to blame except those doing the actual bombing, killing, and raping.

    Not at all. I hold Hamas responsible but I hold Israel’s Government responsible too. I’m not the one with a double standard.

    • #87
  28. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Those nasty, tricksy Jews made Hamas do it. We hates them, we hates them, gollum, gollum!

    • #88
  29. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    No Jews, No News. . .

    . . . or how Muslims treat each other, and you don’t see college protesters (or Zafar) complaining or explaining.

    Because you don’t fund it. You do fund and support Israel. When a child is killed every ten minutes in Gaza, you’re complicit.

    We also fund and support the Palestinians.

    But you don’t fund Hamas.

    Always everyone is to blame except those doing the actual bombing, killing, and raping.

    Not at all. I hold Hamas responsible but I hold Israel’s Government responsible too. I’m not the one with a double standard.

    Sure you are.  You blame the defender more than the attacker.  And even equal blame is nonsense.  If the defender stops defending, lots of people die.  If the attacker didn’t attack, you know what you have?  “Peace.”  Like the situation on October 6.

    • #89
  30. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):
    Again, Hamas deliberately locates its command centers, launch sites, munition dumps, tunnels, etc., in and under civilian buildings and areas (such as refugee camps).

    Where is the proof that it does this? I’m willing to be persuaded, but where’s the proof? Why do you believe this?

    I believe it because it’s the truth and it’s well known, though I doubt you’d accept sources such as the Israelis and U.S. intelligence.

    Israel is at war.  It’s their job to do propaganda.  And they still just show graphics when they make claims like this.  They don’t provide proof.

    • #90
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