There are 43 comments.

1. Member
   Saint Augustine

   @SaintAugustine

   Post author

   8:30 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 30, 2023

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):
   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   I’ve stated this principle, but not defended it.

   There are different ways we could try to defend it. Some might be simple deductive arguments, other nuanced probabilistic arguments.  I prefer a probabilistic one, at least to start.

   One part of the argument would no doubt be the observation simply that if devils exist then the physical world is not all there is. Another would be the philosophical principle that evil is parasitic on good, and certainly not vice versa. Another would be the testimony of a great many philosophers, theologians, and religious texts to the claims that Satan and other demons are real, and also the powers of Heaven; if they’re right about half of it, maybe they’re right about the rest.

   There may be more, but I tend to think those three principles working together provide some support for the conclusion that IF there are devils, there must also be powers in Heaven.

2. Member
   W Bob

   @WBob

   8:34 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 30, 2023

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   W Bob (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   W Bob (View Comment):

   The devil is supposed to be a created being. A part of the created world. Like people. Therefore not part of the supernatural world. The supernatural world is uncreated.

   I would define the natural world as the physical world. But using your definition–Satan is totally not supernatural.

   Unless we are going to be Manichaeans and believe that the devil is equal and opposite to God.

   No heresy for me, thanks.

   That’s the sentiment behind “If there’s a devil there must be a god” etc.

   Certainly not. Why would you think that?

   Look, you can make that inference because Manicheanism is wrong. You just can’t do it in reverse. If Satan and demons are real, so is G-d. But you can’t conclude that they exist on the basic of G-d exist.

   Not sure I follow here…If Satan and demons are real, so is God. Isn’t that like saying that if [REDACTED] are real, then so are nice people?

   Satan depends on G-d, and not vice versa.

   Evil depends on good, but not vice versa.

   It’s a little like saying that, but not just any inference of that pattern works. The first thing is to get a rough understanding of the theory that evil is parasitic on good. It’s basic Augustine/Aquinas. Would you be interested in a few paragraphs of readable scholarship explaining it if I gave you a link?

   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   Yes, please send that.

3. Member
   W Bob

   @WBob

   8:40 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 30, 2023

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):
   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   I’ve stated this principle, but not defended it.

   There are different ways we could try to defend it. Some might be simple deductive arguments, other nuanced probabilistic arguments. I prefer a probabilistic one, at least to start.

   One part of the argument would no doubt be the observation simply that if devils exist then the physical world is not all there is. Another would be the philosophical principle that evil is parasitic on good, and certainly not vice versa. Another would be the testimony of a great many philosophers, theologians, and religious texts to the claims that Satan and other demons are real, and also the powers of Heaven; if they’re right about half of it, maybe they’re right about the rest.

   There may be more, but I tend to think those three principles working together provide some support for the conclusion that IF there are devils, there must also be powers in Heaven.

   If you were to just run into a demon, like in a horror movie, the question is why your consent to the existence of God would follow from that irresistibly. It seems that maybe you’re importing the inference of God’s existence into your definition of what a demon is. 

4. Member
   Saint Augustine

   @SaintAugustine

   Post author

   9:12 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 30, 2023

   W Bob (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):
   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   I’ve stated this principle, but not defended it.

   There are different ways we could try to defend it. Some might be simple deductive arguments, other nuanced probabilistic arguments. I prefer a probabilistic one, at least to start.

   One part of the argument would no doubt be the observation simply that if devils exist then the physical world is not all there is. Another would be the philosophical principle that evil is parasitic on good, and certainly not vice versa. Another would be the testimony of a great many philosophers, theologians, and religious texts to the claims that Satan and other demons are real, and also the powers of Heaven; if they’re right about half of it, maybe they’re right about the rest.

   There may be more, but I tend to think those three principles working together provide some support for the conclusion that IF there are devils, there must also be powers in Heaven.

   If you were to just run into a demon, like in a horror movie, the question is why your consent to the existence of God would follow from that irresistibly. It seems that maybe you’re importing the inference of God’s existence into your definition of what a demon is.

   I prefer a probabilistic argument. It’s not irresistible.

   But on the one hand I hear materialists saying there’s no supernatural, and on the other hand Christianity saying there are G-d, angels, and bad angels.  When I encounter malevolent beings that are not physically there, it confirms that Christianity is right about at least one thing, and the materialists are wrong about everything.

   But sure–maybe I’m just hallucinating, and maybe it’s just aliens who evolved on another planet, or maybe it’s Hinduism or Islam or Kabbalist Judaism or whatever else that has the right account.  Not irresistible.

5. Member
   Saint Augustine

   @SaintAugustine

   Post author

   9:17 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 30, 2023

   W Bob (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   W Bob (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   W Bob (View Comment):

   The devil is supposed to be a created being. A part of the created world. Like people. Therefore not part of the supernatural world. The supernatural world is uncreated.

   I would define the natural world as the physical world. But using your definition–Satan is totally not supernatural.

   Unless we are going to be Manichaeans and believe that the devil is equal and opposite to God.

   No heresy for me, thanks.

   That’s the sentiment behind “If there’s a devil there must be a god” etc.

   Certainly not. Why would you think that?

   Look, you can make that inference because Manicheanism is wrong. You just can’t do it in reverse. If Satan and demons are real, so is G-d. But you can’t conclude that they exist on the basic of G-d exist.

   Not sure I follow here…If Satan and demons are real, so is God. Isn’t that like saying that if [REDACTED] are real, then so are nice people?

   Satan depends on G-d, and not vice versa.

   Evil depends on good, but not vice versa.

   It’s a little like saying that, but not just any inference of that pattern works. The first thing is to get a rough understanding of the theory that evil is parasitic on good. It’s basic Augustine/Aquinas. Would you be interested in a few paragraphs of readable scholarship explaining it if I gave you a link?

   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   Yes, please send that.

   https://rowman.com/WebDocs/9781793612984_RA_MarkBoone.pdf

   Ctr-F for paragraphs beginning with one or more of these:

   Whence, then, if every nature is good, comes evil?–read 2 paragraphs.

   Lib. Arb. 3.13 explicitly states the familiar idea of the unity of being and goodness–read maybe 3 paragraphs.

   Metaphysics, the Problem of Evil, and Desire–read as much as you feel like.

6. Member
   The Reticulator

   @TheReticulator

   1:12 AM EDT ⋅ Nov 4, 2023

   QuietPI (View Comment):

   Years ago when I was a reserve deputy, our training sergeant told about how he became a Christian. Early in his career in a southern California county, some officers got together at a local establishment after their shift. Having been dealing with every kind of evil for the previous eight or more hours, they came to the realization that there had to be a supernatural force for evil in the world. And if that were true, then there also had to be a supernatural force for good.

   Oct 7 had got me thinking along these lines. 

7. Member
   Henry Castaigne

   @HenryCastaigne

   10:48 PM EDT ⋅ Nov 4, 2023

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   W Bob (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):
   I reckon the second thing is to ponder why non-physical malevolent forces would indicate the existence of benevolent non-physical forces, particularly G-d. Maybe in the next comment.

   I’ve stated this principle, but not defended it.

   There are different ways we could try to defend it. Some might be simple deductive arguments, other nuanced probabilistic arguments. I prefer a probabilistic one, at least to start.

   One part of the argument would no doubt be the observation simply that if devils exist then the physical world is not all there is. Another would be the philosophical principle that evil is parasitic on good, and certainly not vice versa. Another would be the testimony of a great many philosophers, theologians, and religious texts to the claims that Satan and other demons are real, and also the powers of Heaven; if they’re right about half of it, maybe they’re right about the rest.

   There may be more, but I tend to think those three principles working together provide some support for the conclusion that IF there are devils, there must also be powers in Heaven.

   If you were to just run into a demon, like in a horror movie, the question is why your consent to the existence of God would follow from that irresistibly. It seems that maybe you’re importing the inference of God’s existence into your definition of what a demon is.

   I prefer a probabilistic argument. It’s not irresistible.

   But on the one hand I hear materialists saying there’s no supernatural, and on the other hand Christianity saying there are G-d, angels, and bad angels. When I encounter malevolent beings that are not physically there, it confirms that Christianity is right about at least one thing, and the materialists are wrong about everything.

   But sure–maybe I’m just hallucinating, and maybe it’s just aliens who evolved on another planet, or maybe it’s Hinduism or Islam or Kabbalist Judaism or whatever else that has the right account. Not irresistible.

   My guess is that they are fairies or Tuatha de Danann.

8. Member
   Saint Augustine

   @SaintAugustine

   Post author

   4:28 AM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

   Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

   Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was by this argument persuaded to baptize her first.

9. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   12:46 PM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

   Saint Augustine (View Comment):

   Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @ jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

   Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was by this argument to baptize her first.

   I’m thinking that sentence needs at least a couple more words to be understood.

10. Member
    Saint Augustine

    @SaintAugustine

    Post author

    6:42 PM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @ jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

    Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was by this argument to baptize her first.

    I’m thinking that sentence needs at least a couple more words to be understood.

    Listen to Knowles.

    It’s a by-now fully expected situation. Government healthcare + difficult medical case + friendliness to euthanasia = government decides a kid needs to die.  The Italians gave this little girl citizenship and were all for flying her there for some last attempt to save her life, but the British government insisted on keeping her and, if I understand correctly, euthanizing her themselves.

11. Member
    Saint Augustine

    @SaintAugustine

    Post author

    6:44 PM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @ jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

    Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was persuaded by this argument to baptize her first.

    I’m thinking that sentence needs at least a couple more words to be understood.

    But golly–I left out the whole main verb!  You were right even without the backstory.

12. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:47 PM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @ jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

    Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was persuaded by this argument to baptize her first.

    I’m thinking that sentence needs at least a couple more words to be understood.

    But golly–I left out the whole main verb! You were right even without the backstory.

    Yes, but the backstory was still valuable.

    I don’t know how many times this has happened with Britain’s “universal death health care,” but I’ve heard similar stories before.

    The one I remember most recently I think involved a boy who the UK wouldn’t allow to come to the US for lifesaving treatment.

13. Member
    Saint Augustine

    @SaintAugustine

    Post author

    6:49 PM EST ⋅ Nov 16, 2023

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine: I’ve been hearing this idea a lot lately, mostly but not exclusively from @ jamesdelingpole: If evil is real, so is good; if supernatural evil is real, so is supernatural good; if demonic powers exist, so do heavenly; if Satan exists, so does G-d; if there are devils, there must also be gods!

    Michael Knowles episode 1,372 reports that the father of the child just killed by the British government was persuaded by this argument to baptize her first.

    I’m thinking that sentence needs at least a couple more words to be understood.

    But golly–I left out the whole main verb! You were right even without the backstory.

    Yes, but the backstory was still valuable.

    I don’t know how many times this has happened with Britain’s “universal death health care,” but I’ve heard similar stories before.

    I think there’ve been at least three by now.  Maybe many more I never heard about and a few I forgot.