Israel Must Reject Calls for ‘Proportionality’

 

There’s a new buzzword among the Hamas accommodationists and those worried that Israel might defend itself from terror: “Proportionality.”

When it comes to warfare, proportionality is bad policy. The victor in any fight is the one who disproportionally harms the enemy more than the enemy harms them. To wit…

Japan destroyed several US Navy assets in an outlying American territory, then captured a few further-flung territories, brutalizing the populace. America’s disproportionate response starved Japan of food, fuel, and materiel, carpet-bombed its urban cores, dropped two nukes, and killed somewhere between 1 million and 2 million of its people (estimates vary widely). Even then, half the Japanese Imperial Cabinet wanted to fight on. Following Japan’s surrender, we occupied their country, recreated their government in a Western image, imposed a new constitution, and still maintain a military presence nearly 80 years later.

Germany declared war on the UK, Russia, and the US, and devastated much of Europe. The Allies’ disproportionate response was to lay waste to Germany, flattening cities, towns, and villages; annihilating their economy and social structures; starving the people; and, as in Japan, imposing a new government, business, military, and civic life.

What are the proponents of proportionality even asking for? Would they praise Israel for breaking into Gaza without warning, taking civilian hostages, beheading babies, and livestreaming it all for laughs and celebrity approval? Would they have praised the UK for the industrial murder of 6 million random Germans? Of course not.

What would have been a proportional response to 9/11? Kabul didn’t have gleaming skyscrapers to raze or a globally interconnected economy to devastate. If the US had run amok in Kandahar slashing thousands of innocents with box cutters, I don’t see the UN praising us for proportionality.

Those demanding proportionality from Israel do not want proportionality at all. Instead, they do not want Israel to defend itself. They want Hamas to be the victor.

Asking for tit-for-tat responses guarantees a forever war.

Published in Foreign Policy, Military
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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    When settlers put their own children at risk by bringing them up in places like Hebron are they responsible for any acts of violence which harm those children?

    No more than parents who bring up their kids in places like South Chicago, East St. Louis, or the part of Baltimore called “Middle East” (the TV show “The Wire” was largely shot there). IOW, no.

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Or do people who attack those settler children still have some agency?

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

     

    Zafar (View Comment):
    (In related news the US has pushed Israel to allow Gazans water to drink. Thank you America, they will not die of thirst.)

    Gaza sits right on top of an aquifer that, for a tiny fraction of the aid money that its residents have received over the 18 years since their autonomy, could have been tapped and be supplying 100% of their water needs for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself why they haven’t done that.

     

    Exactly where does Gaza’s water come from? Where are the sources? What infrastructure delivers the water?

    Some kind of pipeline from Israel, apparently.  Along with much of their electrical power and other resources.

    In a way it’s kinda nice that Hamas doesn’t want to build their own, that makes it easy for Israel to cut them off.

    • #61
  2. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):
    Exactly where does Gaza’s water come from?  Where are the sources? What infrastructure delivers the water?  

    The source of pretty much all of Gaza’s reliably potable water has been … their hated Jews. For free (to Gazans).

    Here’s a 2019 article about … said hated Jews‘ … water company laying the fourth water pipeline:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-lays-fourth-largest-yet-water-pipeline-to-gaza/

    • #62
  3. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too.  Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

     

    • #63
  4. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    C’mon.  You know very well that there is a substantial difference in character between beheading an infant with a big knife while yelling ‘allahu akbar’, and a child being killed because they are too close to a legitimate military target.  Particularly, when the child is in close proximity due to the same people cutting off baby’s heads.

    That kind of false moral equivalence allows people to say that when the baby killer is shot while attacking a different home later the same day that it makes it all even, because it’s one death on either side.

    • #64
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    C’mon. You know very well that there is a substantial difference in character between beheading an infant with a big knife while yelling ‘allahu akbar’, and a child being killed because they are too close to a legitimate military target.

    iow one rule for me and another for thee.  Gottit.

     

    • #65
  6. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    It’s disgusting the way those Jews persist in defending themselves. /sarcasm

    When Muslims fire weapons from residential areas, Jews must refrain from firing back.

    When Muslims store weapons in mosques and schools and apartment buildings, Jews must refrain from blowing them up.

    • #66
  7. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    C’mon. You know very well that there is a substantial difference in character between beheading an infant with a big knife while yelling ‘allahu akbar’, and a child being killed because they are too close to a legitimate military target.

    iow one rule for me and another for thee. Gottit.

     

    When Israel goes out of their way to kill as many civilians as possible you might have a point.  When they are burning children in front of their parents as torture, come back and talk to me.

    • #67
  8. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use

    From the article:

    “… about 40% of the domestic water supply is lost on the way to consumers because of Gaza’s outdated infrastructure.”

    Here, then, is yet another “Ask youself” type question for you:

    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    • #68
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    C’mon. You know very well that there is a substantial difference in character between beheading an infant with a big knife while yelling ‘allahu akbar’, and a child being killed because they are too close to a legitimate military target.

    iow one rule for me and another for thee. Gottit.

     

    When Israel goes out of their way to kill as many civilians as possible you might have a point. When they are burning children in front of their parents as torture, come back and talk to me.

    I don’t remember, who was it who claimed that Zafar is an honest interlocutor?  That didn’t age well.

    • #69
  10. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    The Jewish children whose lives were ended last Saturday in Israel at the hands of Hamas terrorists were MURDERED.

    The Gazan children whose lives ended during the past week’s Israeli armed forces’ bombings were KILLED.

    EVERY society/culture (since times almost immemorial; well, except for Buddhists, perhaps) understands the MORALITY-related distinctions between the two. Including Muslim societies.

    So kindly don’t even try the “killed murdered” thingy. Don’t insult your own intelligence by acting like someone who isn’t intelligent enough to know that he won’t get away with insulting his interlocutors’ intelligence.

    • #70
  11. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    People who murder settler children, South Chicago children, East St. Louis children, Baltimore “Middle East” children, don’t just have some agency. They have ALL the agency.

    Thank you. I think so too. Also about children being killed murdered in Gaza.

    C’mon. You know very well that there is a substantial difference in character between beheading an infant with a big knife while yelling ‘allahu akbar’, and a child being killed because they are too close to a legitimate military target.

    iow one rule for me and another for thee. Gottit.

     

    When Israel goes out of their way to kill as many civilians as possible you might have a point. When they are burning children in front of their parents as torture, come back and talk to me.

    I don’t remember, who was it who claimed that Zafar is an honest interlocutor? That didn’t age well.

    Aged like fine milk left out in the desert sun…

     

    • #71
  12. Headedwest Inactive
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I don’t remember, who was it who claimed that Zafar is an honest interlocutor?  That didn’t age well.

    He cloaks his insults in language that seems polite, until you parse it.

    • #72
  13. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    GPentelie (View Comment):
    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    Because the Jews didn’t update it for them. Obvs.

    Palestinians have no responsibility for themselves or each other. It’s all a failed society because of. . . the Jews.

    C’mon Zafar. You’re better than this.

    • #73
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):
    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    Because the Jews didn’t update it for them. Obvs.

    Palestinians have no responsibility for themselves or each other. It’s all a failed society because of. . . the Jews.

    C’mon Zafar. You’re better than this.

    Hey, I’m  not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children. 

    • #74
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):
    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    Because the Jews didn’t update it for them. Obvs.

    Palestinians have no responsibility for themselves or each other. It’s all a failed society because of. . . the Jews.

    C’mon Zafar. You’re better than this.

    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    I don’t think anyone says it’s okay, except Hamas.  The others are saying it might be unavoidable.  Especially if the other side tries to use them as shields or weapons.

    • #75
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):
    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    Because the Jews didn’t update it for them. Obvs.

    Palestinians have no responsibility for themselves or each other. It’s all a failed society because of. . . the Jews.

    C’mon Zafar. You’re better than this.

    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    No, you’re arguing that there’s an equivalence between those who burn babies alive and behead them in front of their parents and the children who are used as human shields by the Islamo-Nazis who committed such atrocities who are not targeted by the Israelis, but are killed incidentally while targeting the Islamo-Nazis. You’re defending the indefensible this way? It’s just terrible moral reasoning.

    • #76
  17. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Just read a headline that Hamas is confiscating people’s car keys so they’re unable to evacuate. These have to be some of the worst people on the planet. And they’re abusive and indifferent to the suffering of their own people! Israel cares more about the lives of the Palestinians than Hamas does.

    • #77
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Just read a headline that Hamas is confiscating people’s car keys so they’re unable to evacuate. These have to be some of the worst people on the planet. And they’re abusive and indifferent to the suffering of their own people! Israel cares more about the lives of the Palestinians than Hamas does.

    And Republicans care more about Democrats than Democrat politicians do.

    • #78
  19. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):
    WHY is Gaza’s water supply infrastructure “outdated”?

    Because the Jews didn’t update it for them. Obvs.

    Palestinians have no responsibility for themselves or each other. It’s all a failed society because of. . . the Jews.

    C’mon Zafar. You’re better than this.

    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    No

    That’s right.  I’m not.

    • #79
  20. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    It’s disgusting the way those Jews persist in defending themselves. /sarcasm

    When Muslims fire weapons from residential areas, Jews must refrain from firing back.

    When Muslims store weapons in mosques and schools and apartment buildings, Jews must refrain from blowing them up.

    When you use direct quotes from the Associated Press handbook you should provide proper citations.

    • #80
  21. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m  not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children. 

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

     

     

    • #81
  22. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    • #82
  23. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    I think it’s unacceptable to murder children in Gaza or anywhere else. 

    • #83
  24. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    I think Hamas intentionally putting children in harms’ way is disgusting and immoral. Israel is seeking to destroy its mortal enemy, not kill children. Unlike Hamas.

    • #84
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    I think it’s unacceptable to murder children in Gaza or anywhere else.

    Is that what Israel is doing in. Gaza?

    • #85
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Zafar (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    I think it’s unacceptable to murder children in Gaza or anywhere else.

    Is that what Israel is doing in. Gaza?

    Not that I’ve heard.

    • #86
  27. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Agreed. You should never murder children. You should avoid killing children. 

    If your enemy insists on hiding behind children it is ok to shoot. 

    btw, if I rob a bank and hold a hostage in front of me and said hostage gets dies that’s going to be something I am charged with if I survive the outing. 

    In a bank robbery (civilian) as understood (mostly tv) cops err on the side of not hitting hostages/non-combatants. 

    War is a little more dynamic than that. 

    Always worth keeping in mind: 

    • #87
  28. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    I think it’s unacceptable to murder children in Gaza or anywhere else.

    Is that what Israel is doing in. Gaza?

    I haven’t seen any legitimate evidence to back claims that Israel is murdering children in Gaza.  

    • #88
  29. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Hey, I’m not the one arguing that sometimes it’s okay to kill children.

    Please point to ANYONE here who has been arguing that “sometimes it’s okay to kill children”. With links to such comments.

    Fair point.

    Is there anybody here who thinks that Israel killing children in Gaza is unacceptable in these circumstances?

    Specifically targeting children is unacceptable. If the cowards in Gaza want to hide behind children, in the words of Lovecraft, they are a race more foul and loathsome than the putrid slime that clings to the walls of Hell.  

    • #89
  30. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    It’s the “people” who use other people (especially children) as shields who are the ones responsible for the collateral carnage.

    I think Zafar understands this.

    I think so, too. He’s a smart fella,

    Thank you.

    so I’m very confident that he understands this reality.As the sarcasm embedded in his comment indicates, however, he has a hard time accepting it. And, to be fair, erring on that side is not just understandable, but a sign of a decent human being. As opposed to someone who approaches such soul-testing dilemmas with utter nonchalance.

    Let’s turn this around to stress test the assumption.

    When settlers put their own children at risk by bringing them up in places like Hebron are they responsible for any acts of violence which harm those children?

    Or do people who attack those settler children still have some agency?

    (In related news the US has pushed Israel to allow Gazans water to drink. Thank you America, they will not die of thirst.)

     

    Of course.  Because the idiots in charge of the US don’t seem to understand what a siege is.

    • #90
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