Without a Middle Class, Democracy Becomes Irrelevant. Which Is the Whole Point.

 

A recent post included the old Turkish Proverb, “When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king.  The palace becomes a circus.“  In that post it was being used to make a point about President Biden, but I think the true wisdom of that proverb is best seen from a more generalized point of view.

A palace is the seat of power.  Like our Oval Office.  But the palace doesn’t matter.  The office doesn’t matter.  What matters is the people.  Ronald Reagan viewed the Oval Office with such reverence that he refused to remove his suit jacket in such a hallowed place.  Bill Clinton got blow jobs from young interns in that same office.  Which one was right?  Neither.  They were both wrong.  The place doesn’t matter.  There’s no difference between the Oval Office and any other office.  But there’s a big difference between Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.  And that is a difference that matters.

This next quote is not a Turkish Proverb, but it does come from Turkish President Erdogan:  “Democracy is like a train ride.  When you reach your stop, you get off.”  His point is that democracy is a convenient way to change the people in charge.  But once you get the right people in charge, you stop.  You no longer need democracy.  You’re where you want to be, so you get off the train.  You might think that this is sort of missing the point of democracy, but Putin, Castro, Hitler, and many other tyrants would tend to agree with Mr. Erdogan.

It turns out that democracy doesn’t matter any more than palaces or fancy offices do.  It’s the people that matter.

American leftists understand this, and have spent the past several decades working tirelessly to convert the American citizenry from freedom-loving independent thinkers to fearful sheep willing to trade freedom for security.

They have done this in many and varied ways, including converting government schools into indoctrination centers for the left, and even up to importing a massive new voting block for Democrats via open borders.

But their most dangerous technique may be the left’s intentional destruction of the middle class.  These are people who are neither poor nor rich, and are capable of taking care of themselves.  Which means they are also capable of thinking for themselves.  Which means they are dangerous to leftists who view elections and independent thinkers as threats.  Leftists need sheep, and they fear everyone else.  Rightly so, obviously.

The destruction of the middle-class results in a society of only the rich and the poor.  Such societies are inherently unstable, and the politics of such societies becomes a simple power struggle, managed by those who redistribute wealth.

Those who want to keep what they earn through their own labor – those people are less dangerous than those who want to take what others have earned.

Venezuela.

A dominant middle class tends to enhance domestic peace and prosperity.  The lack of a middle class tends to lead to … well, to Venezuela.  Or North Korea or Cuba or some other socialist paradise.

As California’s middle class has either been destroyed or simply left the state, California is starting to look like those countries that destroyed their middle classes.  Imagine what California would look like right now without the financial, infrastructure, and military support of the United States federal government.  It would look a lot like Mexico, and possibly even worse.

And the Democrats are intentionally destroying our middle class in the other 49 states, simply so they can get to their stop, and get off the democracy train.  Then everything will be under control.

No, it won’t.  American leftists are making the same mistake that leftists have made around the world for generations.  Their efforts to gain government power by taking power from the citizens inevitably leads to instability.  They are destroying that which stabilizes society, and are building something that they cannot possibly control.

Again.

And again and again and again.

America was a very nice place for a very long time.  Not because there was anything unusual about America.  It’s because there was something unusual about Americans.  Specifically, the American middle class.

Los Angeles.

The left understands that you don’t destroy America by burning the forests or salting the fields.  You destroy America by destroying the American middle class.  So that’s what they’re doing.  California is leading the way, giving us a preview of what is to come, which may be of interest to those who are unfamiliar with the history of leftism.  For example, those who were indoctrinated in American government schools.  Watching California implode might be disconcerting for the sheep among us.

For the rest of us, it’s like watching a train crash in slow motion.

Leftists are destroying that which stabilizes society, and are building something they can’t possibly control.

Again.

Published in General
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 62 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Hey, as long as we’re engaging in Bertolt Brecht references, I think I’d be sorely remiss in not pointing to the short poem he wrote in order to express, satirically/sarcastically, his belated epiphany that the East German government’s response to the workers’ uprising in 1953 was not quite in keeping with the kind of worker-empowering approach that Marxist governments are supposed to be pursuing/implementing/enforcing, dontcha know.

    The English title of the poem is “The Solution”, and it goes like this (bolding mine):

    After the uprising of the 17th June
    The Secretary of the Writers Union
    Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
    Stating that the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the government
    And could win it back only
    By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
    In that case for the government
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another?

    Bringing things back to current-day America context/dynamics, …

    That’s political parties gerrymandering for you. Less lurid than other examples, I’ll grant, but much more of an impact.

    That’s a stretch.

    • #31
  2. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Hey, as long as we’re engaging in Bertolt Brecht references, I think I’d be sorely remiss in not pointing to the short poem he wrote in order to express, satirically/sarcastically, his belated epiphany that the East German government’s response to the workers’ uprising in 1953 was not quite in keeping with the kind of worker-empowering approach that Marxist governments are supposed to be pursuing/implementing/enforcing, dontcha know.

    The English title of the poem is “The Solution”, and it goes like this (bolding mine):

    After the uprising of the 17th June
    The Secretary of the Writers Union
    Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
    Stating that the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the government
    And could win it back only
    By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
    In that case for the government
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another?

    Bringing things back to current-day America context/dynamics, …

    Nearly-nonexistent borders across which the equivalent of the population of Houston or Chicago (about 2.5 million) streams across year in and year out would, at some point, achieve the functional equivalent of “dissolv[ing]” the current American people and “elect[ing]”” its replacement.

    Cui bono?

    If that’s their plan, they might find the “replacement” they think they want, will be even harder to control.

    Please elaborate on your “even harder to control” point.

    Well they’ve been letting in MS-13 and other gangs, etc, why do they think those types would suddenly settle down and be easily controlled once they get into the US? And that’s not even counting “regular” people who already know about corrupt central government from growing up in Mexico and other places.

    The narcocracy which emerges to govern itself will accommodate the Federal government just as it has in good ol’ Mexico. They’ll get along quite well, minus the occasional beheaded honest prosecutor.

    That’s the problem, the feds think they’re the ones who should be in charge.

    If they think they were dealing with an armed citizenry before, they ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

    Let me ask you this — how much discomfort are they having with armed inner-city culture? They co-opt it and use it against the rest of us. Cops caught in the middle, too.

    Yes for now, but it’s anti-government too and that part seems likely to increase the more there are.

    • #32
  3. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    From the OP: “California is leading the way, giving us a preview of what is to come …”

    Maybe. Then again, maybe not. Perhaps it’s on the opposite end of the country where we find “what is to come”: Florida. To wit:

    “Below is a list featuring some of the higher-profile priorities pursued by the state’s leadership, either having already been signed into law by the governor or having been passed by the state legislature, awaiting DeSantis’ signature.

    Six-week abortion ban

    Permitless carry

    Illegal immigration crackdown

    Penalties on businesses that admit kids to “adult live performances”

    Death penalty for child rapists

    A “digital bill of rights”

    Enhanced penalties for fentanyl dealing

    Fining credit card companies for tracking gun purchases

    Removal of automatic teachers union paycheck deductions

    Affordable housing

    Outlawing social credit scores, crackdown on environmental, social and corporate governance investment

    Ban on sex reassignment surgeries, other operations for minors

    Outlawing central bank digital currency

    Lowering the jury threshold for the death penalty

    Parental rights law expansion to PreK-8

    Eliminating diversity, equity and inclusion departments from public universities:

    Separate bathrooms by sex

    Requiring “wide diversity of perspectives” in campus lectures or debates, banning political loyalty tests in higher education …”

    Additional factoids:

    More than 1,000 LEOs from other states have taken advantage of the $5,000 signing bonus currently offered. Florida’s crime rate is at a 50 year low.

    The state is running record budget surpluses, and has been returning notable amounts to taxpayers in various ways.

    The state’s population has been growing at the rate of 1 Orlando/year lately. It gained an additional congressional seat on the heels of the last Census. Meanwhile California lost one, and U-Haul recently ran out of vans/trucks for people moving out of there.

    Etc., etc., etc..

    Conclusion:

    Which “laboratory of democracy”, California or Florida, is the one that portends our country’s overall future remains to be seen. My money’s on the latter.

    What is disturbing about this is how many laws a state now needs to preserve our liberty and values. What does that say about states that haven’t passed so many laws? The number of laws reflect just how much our civilization is under attack.

    • #33
  4. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    What is disturbing about this is how many laws a state now needs to preserve our liberty and values. What does that say about states that haven’t passed so many laws? The number of laws reflect just how much our civilization is under attack.

    “When a country is rebellious it needs many rulers, but . . . [something or other].”  Book of Proverbs.  I should be able to remember the whole verse.  I can’t.

    Someone else?  I gotta wrap up some exam grading here.

    • #34
  5. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    What is disturbing about this is how many laws a state now needs to preserve our liberty and values. What does that say about states that haven’t passed so many laws? The number of laws reflect just how much our civilization is under attack.

    “When a country is rebellious it needs many rulers, but . . . [something or other].” Book of Proverbs. I should be able to remember the whole verse. I can’t.

    Someone else? I gotta wrap up some exam grading here.

    Take your pick:

    https://biblehub.com/proverbs/28-2.htm

    • #35
  6. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    BDB (View Comment):

    @ occupantcdn just posted this on another thread:

    He also points out the danger of this in his Who Killed Homer. There is a reason they must separate the western world from its Greek ancestry. If you have the book, see page 45. The middle class were the bedrock:

    The Greeks’ goal was not to lure the more industrious of the middle to climb into the material surfeit of the top, but rather to force the top down and bottom up… with the middle group assumed as the sole bedrock of society

    …avoid the pathologies of wealthy and poor alike in search of a stable middle; and curb, without alienating, the more gifted. The contradiction between social justice and the innate, selfish nature of man – the chief challenge to modern political science itself- was found by the Greeks to be unsolvable, without resolution, to be turned over to an unworkable Utopia by Aristotle, Plato, and lesser Greek minds.

    In Greek literature, tragically so, there are always the rich; they are sometimes noble but more often selfish, whether right or stupid. There are always the poor, some deservedly so, others exploited and oppressed. But the margins are more alike than dissimilar, and they are far worse creatures than those in the middle, who alone – Aristotle, Aristophanes, and Euripides believe – save the state.

    VDH goes on to quote Euripides:

    The rich without livelihood are dangerous and always grasping for more. The poor without livelihood are dangerous and always full of envy, ready to sting the rich and are tricked by the tongues of evil leaders. But the middle class in between, the middle ones save the state, they who keep the order which the state decrees.

    • #36
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    What is disturbing about this is how many laws a state now needs to preserve our liberty and values. What does that say about states that haven’t passed so many laws? The number of laws reflect just how much our civilization is under attack.

    “When a country is rebellious it needs many rulers, but . . . [something or other].” Book of Proverbs. I should be able to remember the whole verse. I can’t.

    Someone else? I gotta wrap up some exam grading here.

    Take your pick:

    https://biblehub.com/proverbs/28-2.htm

    Yep. Thank you.

    • #37
  8. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    … the middle ones save the state, they who keep the order which the state decrees.

    For without them, …

    “… Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, …”

     

    https://poets.org/poem/second-coming

     

    • #38
  9. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Woah dude, next thing you know it’s Good Woman of Szechuan time, which of course is also party time but maybe not so excellent? [I would like my medal for familiarity with trash 1980s culture now please, and if you’re not sure which referencer was relevant, well neither am I entirely.]

    Often people seem to consider America’s growth and its internal social dynamics outside of the global context.

    We have no problem recognising that globalisation put the squeeze on “low skill” jobs in the developed world (the quotes are because I do not like the term), so that particular class (let’s call it the working class?) in the West suffered at the same time as that class in the non-West really started to get ahead (by which I mean eating more than one meal a day, living in a house with more than one room, buying two (2!!!!!) pairs of shoes, etc.). So you could say that global well being increased, but that was scant comfort to people in the US who lost their jobs because China was making it cheaper and the US was importing it without hindrance – “it” being T Shirts or Cars.

    Is that the kind of thing that is happening to the Western middle class now? Prices have risen in the past, but this time salaries aren’t matching them because lower priced competition overseas becomes increasingly relevant in this age of the internet? Have they outsourced newspaper editing to that team of English PhDs in Manila? Is CHATGPT suddenly doing my job for free? Is free trade really such a good thing if this time I’m the one that’s inconvenienced in the ‘everybody does not benefit equally at first’ pablum thing?

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc. 

    • #39
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Woah dude, next thing you know it’s Good Woman of Szechuan time, which of course is also party time but maybe not so excellent? [I would like my medal for familiarity with trash 1980s culture now please, and if you’re not sure which referencer was relevant, well neither am I entirely.]

    Often people seem to consider America’s growth and its internal social dynamics outside of the global context.

    We have no problem recognising that globalisation put the squeeze on “low skill” jobs in the developed world (the quotes are because I do not like the term), so that particular class (let’s call it the working class?) in the West suffered at the same time as that class in the non-West really started to get ahead (by which I mean eating more than one meal a day, living in a house with more than one room, buying two (2!!!!!) pairs of shoes, etc.). So you could say that global well being increased, but that was scant comfort to people in the US who lost their jobs because China was making it cheaper and the US was importing it without hindrance – “it” being T Shirts or Cars.

    Is that the kind of thing that is happening to the Western middle class now? Prices have risen in the past, but this time salaries aren’t matching them because lower priced competition overseas becomes increasingly relevant in this age of the internet? Have they outsourced newspaper editing to that team of English PhDs in Manila? Is CHATGPT suddenly doing my job for free? Is free trade really such a good thing if this time I’m the one that’s inconvenienced in the ‘everybody does not benefit equally at first’ pablum thing?

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    • #40
  11. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies. 

    • #41
  12. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Except a lot of the “menial” jobs that no longer exist in the US – at least not in sufficient numbers – were never meant to support a family etc, they were entry-level jobs that helped form good work habits and gain experience to qualify for something better.

    • #42
  13. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car.  She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income.  Now we have no kids at home, and better finances.  Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV.  The luxury brand of Hyundai.  It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    • #43
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car. She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income. Now we have no kids at home, and better finances. Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV. The luxury brand of Hyundai. It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    Well, there are fancier luxury cars, but they cost more than a big house.

    • #44
  15. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car. She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income. Now we have no kids at home, and better finances. Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV. The luxury brand of Hyundai. It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    Well, there are fancier luxury cars, but they cost more than a big house.

    I suppose that’s true.  But this thing’s pretty nice.  

    Lordy… 

    • #45
  16. navyjag Coolidge
    navyjag
    @navyjag

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car. She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income. Now we have no kids at home, and better finances. Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV. The luxury brand of Hyundai. It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    Great cars.  Have bought nothing but Japanese for 40 years (Honda, then Toyota). But love the KIAs. Maybe next year. 

    • #46
  17. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car. She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income. Now we have no kids at home, and better finances. Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV. The luxury brand of Hyundai. It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    I drove a G80 (I think that was the model) as a rental for a weekend.  Very nice.

    ON THE OTHER HAND, I had to spend 15 minutes at the rental center trying to kill all of its intrusive “let me do that for you” reflexes and self-adjustment.

    Just be a f#^&#% car, thank you very much.

    • #47
  18. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more.

    I went out to buy my wife a luxury car. She drove a Chrysler minivan for over 250k miles – we had three kids & limited disposable income. Now we have no kids at home, and better finances. Why not, right?

    The nicest car I could find was a Genesis SUV. The luxury brand of Hyundai. It’s a spectacular car.

    If you would have told me a few years ago that the fanciest luxury car I could find would have been a Hyundai, made in Korea, I would have laughed at you. But here we are.

    During the past year or so, the number of Genesis sedans and SUVs in my town has exploded. I see them everywhere now. Hard to argue with great value: as good as (and, in some ways, better than) Mercedes, while oodles of dollars cheaper. Well done, Hyundai!

    • #48
  19. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

     

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Or, you could raise trade barriers again. You would be a less wealthy society as a whole, but the poor would be employed.  It’s a trade off.

    • #49
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Or, you could raise trade barriers again. You would be a less wealthy society as a whole, but the poor would be employed. It’s a trade off.

    I don’t think having existing American citizens doing the “menial” jobs that are currently done by lots of mostly-illegal migrants, would make America less well-off.  Especially considering how much of the income from those “menial” jobs goes back to whatever countries those people came from.  THOSE countries might be less well-off, but not the US.

    • #50
  21. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Or, you could raise trade barriers again. You would be a less wealthy society as a whole, but the poor would be employed. It’s a trade off.

    I don’t think having existing American citizens doing the “menial” jobs that are currently done by lots of mostly-illegal migrants, would make America less well-off. Especially considering how much of the income from those “menial” jobs goes back to whatever countries those people came from. THOSE countries might be less well-off, but not the US.

    And God knows we would be better off without taking suction on a huge tank of peasant mentality.

    • #51
  22. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    There is no doubt about that. After WWII, the US was the only one left standing, and was able to enjoy a twenty year Golden Era. A good deal of hubris and complacency came with that. Japanese steel and autos put paid to that, followed by the South Koreans, etc.. And, once the Cold War was over, things reeeeally accelerated.

    The West’s share of global economic activity will continue to decline. The question is whether the Global Pie will grow enough so that even a smaller piece of it will still be bigger than today’s piece. If so, no problem, and our children will be better off than their parents.

    • #52
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Or, you could raise trade barriers again. You would be a less wealthy society as a whole, but the poor would be employed. It’s a trade off.

    I don’t think having existing American citizens doing the “menial” jobs that are currently done by lots of mostly-illegal migrants, would make America less well-off.

    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    Especially considering how much of the income from those “menial” jobs goes back to whatever countries those people came from. THOSE countries might be less well-off, but not the US.

    Now it could all stay in the States!

    • #53
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    No, government is eating up too much of our GDP and the earnings of workers. Government policies are making the cost of living too high. Finally, the increased standards for living happily have become more expensive: types of cars,size of houses and conveniences included, added cost of technology, added cost of entertainment and communications, added cost of redistributive programs, etc.

    Are you sure this isn’t because the competition has gotten stiffer and you are less competitive compared to (for eg) China than you were fifty years ago?

    Fixing government is hard, but not as hard as becoming more competitive. (China has plenty of government, so I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.)

    Basic economics. Products are made where there is the most desire for the jobs. We no longer have workers willing to do the most menial manufacturing jobs with the inefficient means of production. We still manufacture as many goods as before, with equipment that requires greater technical skills. Many jobs here have been lost to automation. Countries have raised their poor into the middle class by importing those jobs. I remember when “made in Japan” was a joke. That joke didn’t last long. Then “made in Korea” was a joke. No more. With our min wage laws, we will not take back min wage jobs from China. Our workers need to be worth the “living wage” they want and we need to reduce the regulatory and tax burdens our government has imposed on companies.

    Or, you could raise trade barriers again. You would be a less wealthy society as a whole, but the poor would be employed. It’s a trade off.

    I don’t think having existing American citizens doing the “menial” jobs that are currently done by lots of mostly-illegal migrants, would make America less well-off.

    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    But we’re talking about imported labor, displacing what could be Americans taking lower-paying entry-level jobs.

    If those people stayed in their countries and produced things there, we could import even more stuff that they make more cheaply!  And our own people would have more income to do so!

    Especially considering how much of the income from those “menial” jobs goes back to whatever countries those people came from. THOSE countries might be less well-off, but not the US.

    Now it could all stay in the States!

    And buy more imports from the people who stay in their countries and produce things there!

    Everybody wins!

    • #54
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Most people want to eat their cake and have it too :-) including me, no judgement

    • #55
  26. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a long-term/permanent STRATEGY do indeed have that effect. Which is why Mercantilism, for instance, is no longer a thing, and hasn’t been for quite some time now.

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a short-term TACTIC, however, can work quite well. Something like ‘For the next year (two years? three years? etc.?; all up to YOU), we’re gonna treat YOUR companies that try to do business in OUR country the very same way YOU’ve been treating OUR companies that have been trying to do business in YOURS. Please let us know when you’re ready to cry ‘Uncle!’ and sit down at the negotiating table.”

    • #56
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a long-term/permanent STRATEGY do indeed have that effect. Which is why Mercantilism, for instance, is no longer a thing, and hasn’t been for quite some time now.

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a short-term TACTIC, however, can work quite well. Something like ‘For the next year (two years? three years? etc.?; all up to YOU), we’re gonna treat YOUR companies that try to do business in OUR country the very same way YOU’ve been treating OUR companies that have been trying to do business in YOURS. Please let us know when you’re ready to cry ‘Uncle!’ and sit down at the negotiating table.”

    Would we withstand short term price rises for electronics? Debatable.  We depend on bread and circuses these days, we’re vulnerable to that.

    • #57
  28. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a long-term/permanent STRATEGY do indeed have that effect. Which is why Mercantilism, for instance, is no longer a thing, and hasn’t been for quite some time now.

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a short-term TACTIC, however, can work quite well. Something like ‘For the next year (two years? three years? etc.?; all up to YOU), we’re gonna treat YOUR companies that try to do business in OUR country the very same way YOU’ve been treating OUR companies that have been trying to do business in YOURS. Please let us know when you’re ready to cry ‘Uncle!’ and sit down at the negotiating table.”

    Would we withstand short term price rises for electronics? Debatable. We depend on bread and circuses these days, we’re vulnerable to that.

    The trick, of course, is to structure the measures in a way that hurts THEM more than it hurts US. Sometimes, that’s not possible, though.

    • #58
  29. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Trade barriers means you’d be paying more for stuff that you import cheaply today. (T Shirts, etc.)

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a long-term/permanent STRATEGY do indeed have that effect. Which is why Mercantilism, for instance, is no longer a thing, and hasn’t been for quite some time now.

    Trade barriers/tariffs as a short-term TACTIC, however, can work quite well. Something like ‘For the next year (two years? three years? etc.?; all up to YOU), we’re gonna treat YOUR companies that try to do business in OUR country the very same way YOU’ve been treating OUR companies that have been trying to do business in YOURS. Please let us know when you’re ready to cry ‘Uncle!’ and sit down at the negotiating table.”

    Would we withstand short term price rises for electronics? Debatable. We depend on bread and circuses these days, we’re vulnerable to that.

    The trick, of course, is to structure the measures in a way that hurts THEM more than it hurts US. Sometimes, that’s not possible, though.

    And when you can’t, determine who can weather the pain the best and longest. 

    • #59
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):
    Are you sure?   They need customers to make money and people to pay taxes.   The GOPe model is optimized government and maximum economic production.  Things like moral values and nationalism get in the way of maximum income.

    These days big business needs big contracts from the government, which can then take products and give them to people who used to be customers of big business.  

    • #60
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.