From the A-7 Corsair to the A-10 Warthog

 

Sometimes speed is overrated.

I met someone who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. He gave me his list of aircraft when he needed air support. The AC-130 gunship was number one on the list for a night fight. The A-10 and Marine Corps pilots were next on his list.

Extended range and the ability to loiter is one advantage that subsonic aircraft have over the battlefield to provide ground support for troops on the ground.

An old-school aircraft, or at least what we would call old-school today, was the A-7 Corsair.

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  1. Postmodern Hoplite Coolidge
    Postmodern Hoplite
    @PostmodernHoplite

    My admiration for the A-10 notwithstanding, the point @skyler and @bryangstephens are making is 100% valid: the Warthog is vulnerable to attack by contemporary man-portable air defense missile systems like the Stinger. The Soviet experience in Afghanistan in the 1980’s proved it doesn’t take much training to equip a local insurgency with effective anti-air capabilities.

    The whole question of “Pro Warthog” vs. “Anti Warthog” is fun to argue about over drinks at the Officer’s Club, but it misses the real problem at hand: Where are we going to use the A-10, and against what likely enemy, and at what cost benefit?

    These questions lead to even more significant (and I argue way more important) questions: just what are the US’s vital national interests, and do we have a coherent national military strategy aligned to achieve those interests? Based on what I’ve observed since at least 2009 (maybe even as far back as 1993), I’d say the answer is “no.”

    Even so, I still LOVE the A-10! I wish the Army would just take the whole platform over from the USAF: lock, stock, and eight smoking’ barrels!

    • #31
  2. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Sigh.

    Fine.

    Protecting the pilot is more difficult for ground-attack/support aircraft which might be easier to hit, but have their own job to do which an F-35 at 30,000 feet or whatever simply cannot do.

    And that’s not even getting to the other issues with the F-35 such as cost, amount of maintenance required vs usable flying time, and on and on.

    I don’t recall saying an F-35 was a proper replacement. I said the A-10 is not survivable against an enemy with a hint of competence and modernity.

    Which is undeniable.

     

    It is more survivable than the Army’s Apaches. Same general types of targets.

    The idea that the F-35 is capable in any way of providing the support that A-10s supply is based on two things: wishful thinking and what was perhaps the most bogus “fly-off” in USAF history.

    According to sources closely involved with the A-10 versus F-35 fly-off, who wished to remain anonymous out of concerns about retaliation, this testing program was designed without ever consulting the Air Force’s resident experts on close air support, A-10 pilots and joint terminal attack ground controllers.

    The Air Force’s 422 Test and Evaluation Squadron at Nevada’s Nellis Air Force Base maintains an A-10 test division. But no one from the operational test unit contributed to the design of these tests. Even more egregiously, no Army or Marine representatives participated. Since the services fighting on the ground have a primary interest in effective close air support, excluding them from this process borders on negligence.

    • #32
  3. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Strange, I never made a any statement abouth the F35.

    • #33
  4. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Postmodern Hoplite (View Comment):
    Even so, I still LOVE the A-10! I wish the Army would just take the whole platform over from the USAF: lock, stock, and eight smoking’ barrels!

    Key West Agreement.

    • #34
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Postmodern Hoplite (View Comment):

    My admiration for the A-10 notwithstanding, the point @ skyler and @ bryangstephens are making is 100% valid: the Warthog is vulnerable to attack by contemporary man-portable air defense missile systems like the Stinger. The Soviet experience in Afghanistan in the 1980’s proved it doesn’t take much training to equip a local insurgency with effective anti-air capabilities.

    Parts of the A-10 design, such as shielding the engines with side-rudders etc, were meant specifically to protect from heat-seeking missiles.  It may not be 100% effective, but what is?

     

    The whole question of “Pro Warthog” vs. “Anti Warthog” is fun to argue about over drinks at the Officer’s Club, but it misses the real problem at hand: Where are we going to use the A-10, and against what likely enemy, and at what cost benefit?

    These questions lead to even more significant (and I argue way more important) questions: just what are the US’s vital national interests, and do we have a coherent national military strategy aligned to achieve those interests? Based on what I’ve observed since at least 2009 (maybe even as far back as 1993), I’d say the answer is “no.”

    Even so, I still LOVE the A-10! I wish the Army would just take the whole platform over from the USAF: lock, stock, and eight smoking’ barrels!

    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft.  Stupid law.

    • #35
  6. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Percival (View Comment):
    It is more survivable than the Army’s Apaches. Same general types of targets.

    That’s not saying much at all.  The Apache was a dumb idea and is still a dumb idea.  

    • #36
  7. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft.  Stupid law.

    I’ve always said that air power and especially air support is too important to have been taken away from the army.  Now they’ve doubled down and made an absurd space force.  We should have two services, an army and a Navy with a Marine Corps, and everyone should have rifles and everyone should have aircraft.

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Skyler (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    I’ve always said that air power and especially air support is too important to have been taken away from the army. Now they’ve doubled down and made an absurd space force. We should have two services, an army and a Navy with a Marine Corps, and everyone should have rifles and everyone should have aircraft.

    I don’t have a problem with three service branches, but each should have the equipment suitable to its larger purpose/mission including aircraft.  The Navy needs aircraft to defend and supply their ships etc, and the Army needs aircraft to support and supply and defend their other forces…  But neither the Navy nor the Air Force should be deciding what kind of aircraft the Army needs.

    • #38
  9. Postmodern Hoplite Coolidge
    Postmodern Hoplite
    @PostmodernHoplite

    Skyler (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    I’ve always said that air power and especially air support is too important to have been taken away from the army. Now they’ve doubled down and made an absurd space force. We should have two services, an army and a Navy with a Marine Corps, and everyone should have rifles and everyone should have aircraft.

    Amen, brother…a-fricken’-men!

    • #39
  10. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft.  Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    • #40
  11. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    • #41
  12. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft. 

    • #42
  13. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement. 

     

    • #43
  14. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement.

     

    How many divisions does Key West have?

    • #44
  15. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bunsen (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement.

     

    Do the pilots of the Fixed Wing Aircraft carry pistols? In my book that makes them Armed…

    Bazooka Charlie.

     

    Any relation to 5 O’Clock Charlie?

     

    Bazooka Charlie was one of ours.

    • #45
  16. Bunsen Coolidge
    Bunsen
    @Bunsen

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement.

     

    Do the pilots of the Fixed Wing Aircraft carry pistols?  In my book that makes them Armed…

    • #46
  17. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Bunsen (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement.

     

    Do the pilots of the Fixed Wing Aircraft carry pistols? In my book that makes them Armed…

    Bazooka Charlie.

    • #47
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bunsen (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    As I recall, the problem is the Army by law is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft. Stupid law.

    It is known as the Key West Agreement.

    And a rose by any other name is just as stupid.

    The Army has fixed wing aircraft. They are either utility or EW. They don’t have armed fixed wing aircraft.

    Ah, need to spell it out then.

    The Army is not allowed Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft because of the Key West Agreement.

     

    Do the pilots of the Fixed Wing Aircraft carry pistols? In my book that makes them Armed…

    Bazooka Charlie.

     

    Any relation to 5 O’Clock Charlie?

     

    • #48
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