Naomi Wolf Calls for Revival

 

I posted a link in the Link Library to Naomi Wolf’s latest Substack piece, Have the Ancient Gods Returned?

I was interested in the Naomi Wolf piece because it is startling that someone who was, at least in the popular mind, associated with some of the late 20th Century cultural trends, finds herself quite at odds with what is going on today. Wolf, like most of us I imagine, is trying to understand how things have gotten so out of whack. As the saying goes: failure starts slowly, then quickly. Wolf operated in social, political, and professional circles that were very comfortable, until they weren’t. And, from this and other pieces she has written, her perception of a sudden shift has been very devastating to her.

Reading Wolf is less like drinking a cup of water than it is taking a bath, less of a direct ferry trip across a lake and more like a leisurely exploration of every bay and cove. If you don’t like that, let me try and summarize the piece’s main points as I see them:

  1. It is hard to see events since 2020 as being merely coincidental. The global sweep of totalitarian practices justified by a health “emergency” came too quickly to be an organic evolutionary movement.
  2. Absent an effective and obvious global organization working in concert with governments, how do you explain it?
  3. The rights that have been lost since 2020 were a reflection of a robust Western Civilization based on Judeo-Christian principles. Those rights could not be lost without a rejection of Judeo-Christian principles.
  4. Judeo-Christian principles reflect a covenant, or contract, with a monotheistic G-d. That G-d supplanted the pagan gods that were to be individually propitiated and who seemed to have an unquenchable appetite for sacrifice, violence, abasement, and turmoil. Belief in that monotheistic G-d, and conducting oneself as an individual and a society in accord with the principles He set down, delivered us from the power of the pagan gods and the troubles that they promoted in and amongst mankind.
  5. As a society, we have violated the contract with G-d. This has been happening for a while, but until recently our institutions retained the forms of a Judeo-Christian system even as the internal framework decayed or was dismantled. But now we can see the consequences of such decay and dismantling as these institutions, one by one, cease to operate within their earlier forms.
  6. While Judeo-Christian belief is not the exclusive preserve of any religion, it has identifiable elements: respect for individual sovereignty; a rule of law resistant to political favor and preference; a subordination of government to G-d and His creation, the individual; the concomitant empathy and action required by individuals toward one another; the acceptance of personal responsibility and accountability, not assigning those obligations to the state.
  7. In breaking our covenant with G-d, His ability (?), willingness (?) to protect us from the pagan gods of old is diminished or withdrawn. As a society, we are left to live again in a world dominated by those gods and with all the consequences therefrom.
  8. If we want to make the pagan gods retreat, we must, as a society, embrace the covenant again.

I do like her description of the Covenant in what are quite understandable contracting terms. In law each contract to be binding and enforceable requires “consideration.” Most of the time, one party’s consideration is money, but the law does not require that it be so. Consideration can be anything that someone does to fulfill their end of the bargain.

Most people see contracts as highly transactional. But my own background in law involved long-term contracts with many subparts but always operating within what is more fairly described as a “relationship.” The contract document itself created many ways the parties could seek remedies without completely breaking off the relationship. And so it is that Wolf’s description of the Covenant resonated with me in ways that might not resonate with someone who more typically engages in single sales transactions.

It is easier to imagine an evil genius behind the problems in our society — national or global — than it simply being the natural consequence of changes that have been coming for some time. Wolf sort of concedes this as she leaves the demons as spirits of various malignities rather than persons. But her tendency toward drama does make her overstate: the success of censorship and control has tended to obscure the real resistance that in fact did occur although uncelebrated and, for the most part, unsuccessful as yet. Thus her argument — “How could this have happened all at once without something resembling a conspiracy?” — is a bit overwrought.

But her broader point is still interesting if you abstract it: Judeo-Christianity is the foundation of what we call Western Civilization. That civilization not only made the societies that follow it economically successful, but had the broadest sharing in safety, security, and peacefulness (notwithstanding horrific wars and despotisms). Even though I am personally agnostic I do believe that the belief in G-d as the Creator, humans as creations endowed with rights, the state as subordinate to G-d and His creation, is extremely important to maintain the power balance between the citizen and the state. And when we depart from this belief, a power hierarchy asserts itself to the detriment of mankind; the individual is respected only to the extent he/she can subordinate another; the application of law is only supportive of the power hierarchy. And that is where we are today in too much of our society. Not completely — here and there the forms remain, and some jurisdictions are more respectful of Judeo-Christian values than others.

If we are to reverse the Obama-promised “transformation,” we must whole-heartedly re-embrace Judeo-Christian principles. If enough of us do, and do so persistently, the fallen institutions can be rebuilt and the covenant restored. It may not be a covenant with G-d, but it is a covenant with our fellow man — to live peaceably, to do unto others as they would do unto us, to take accountability for our government and demand that it be accountable to us all, not just to a minority working a power hierarchy against the rest of us.

[L]ove your neighbor as yourself…

Leviticus 19:18

See you in them and respect them as a means of gaining respect for yourself.

Move over Asbury University, we have a bigger revival to perform.

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  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Rodin: If we are to reverse the Obama-promised “transformation” we must whole-heartedly re-embrace Judeo-Christian principles. If enough of us do, and do so persistently, the fallen institutions can be rebuilt and the covenant restored. It may not be a covenant with G-d, but it is a covenant with our fellow man — to live peaceably, to do unto others as they would do unto us, to take accountability for our government and demand that it be accountable to us all, not just to a minority working a power hierarchy against the rest of us.

    Great post! At first I was going to say that I can’t imagine our finding our way back without re-establishing our covenant with G-d. But the other day I was describing the Noahide Laws (given to Noah by G-d) that G-d intended everyone to follow. And G-d does expect us (as you say) to honor each other. Thanks!

    I wanted to list the Noahide Laws since many may not of heard of them. It’s interesting to consider whether following them “requires” a belief in G-d: Do not profane G‑d’s Oneness in any way. Do not curse your Creator. Do not murder. Do not eat a limb of a still-living animal. Do not steal. Harness and channel the human libido. Establish courts of law and ensure justice in our world.

     

     

    • #1
  2. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    I am afraid calamity must occur before  revival happens . We saw a glimpse of it the week after 911 . Then it evaporated . The people realized they were safe and returned to the accumulation of stuff . 

    Well , Naomi . You helped usher in our current predicament with your progressive ism . Just sayin . 

    • #2
  3. Fritz Coolidge
    Fritz
    @Fritz

    Could it be that the disasters of the past few years have opened Naomi’s eyes? Never thought her a deep thinker, once it was reported that she had counseled then presidential candidate Al Gore that he’d be more successful if the colors in his wardrobe were more earth tones.

    • #3
  4. Old Bathos Moderator
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Every time I read about some liberal having regrets that things have gone too far, I imagine Nikolai Salmanovich Rubashov getting an other cellmate.

    • #4
  5. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Rodin:

    • It is hard to see events since 2020 as being merely coincidental. The global sweep of totalitarian practices justified by a health “emergency” came too quickly to be an organic evolutionary movement.
    • Absent an effective and obvious global organization working in concert with governments, how do you explain it?

    Well, as to this part, because the so-called “totalitarian” practices were the normal, natural, and sensible responses to a serious epidemic of infectious disease.

    As usual, every government policy that you — and apparently Wolf — don’t like is “totalitarian.”  This is the cheap rhetoric of childish libertarianism.

    I opposed most of the Covid policies, not because of some knee-jerk libertarianism, but because the threat of Covid simply wasn’t that serious.  The death rate was quite low, compared to serious diseases, and it principally affected those who were already infirm.

    • #5
  6. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    I also think that your view of Christianity is almost completely wrong.

    This may explain your conflation of Christianity with Judaism, which are vastly different religions characterized by complete Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ and some of His early followers, such as the martyr Stephen.

    Again, though, I think that the problem is childish libertarianism.  Libertarianism is so deranging that it leads people to read the teachings of the Bible, and conclude that it is all about rejecting authority and getting to do whatever you want.

    • #6
  7. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Well, as to this part, because the so-called “totalitarian” practices were the normal, natural, and sensible responses to a serious epidemic of infectious disease.

    Pretty much. If there’d been bodies stacked on the street corners, lockdowns would have been rational. 

    As for why all the governments did it, well, monkey see, etc. 

    • #7
  8. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    Mainstream and popular academia has moved right past denying the existence of G-d. They’ve pretty much won that battle, at least when it comes to what is taught in schools and promulgated by the mainstream media.

    So, free from having to keep harping on about G-d, they are now hard at work promoting the claim that science has proved the non-existence of free will.

    Exhibits:

    Those who disagree tend to be written off, or at least see their academic prestige take a serious hit:

    Exhibits:

    That’s as pagan a belief as one can get. The Fates have already decided everything at the macroscopic level. Your only hope is that Fortuna might intervene at the Quantum level.

    • #8
  9. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Rodin:

    • It is hard to see events since 2020 as being merely coincidental. The global sweep of totalitarian practices justified by a health “emergency” came too quickly to be an organic evolutionary movement.
    • Absent an effective and obvious global organization working in concert with governments, how do you explain it?

    Well, as to this part, because the so-called “totalitarian” practices were the normal, natural, and sensible responses to a serious epidemic of infectious disease.

     

    And yet, governments around the world IGNORED the pandemic action plans that had already been prepared by experts and scientists in the wake of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics.  The reaction to COVID did not follow the normal and sensible response plans that had already been prepared.

    • #9
  10. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Well, as to this part, because the so-called “totalitarian” practices were the normal, natural, and sensible responses to a serious epidemic of infectious disease.

    Pretty much. If there’d been bodies stacked on the street corners, lockdowns would have been rational.

    As for why all the governments did it, well, monkey see, etc.

    I think that there’s more to it than this, in the motivation of government officials.  They need to deal with public panic.

    People seem to be prone to hysterical overreaction and paranoia.  We see this on all sorts of issues, and on just about every side politically.  Fears of Russia and China, fear of global warming, fear of other pollution issues, fear of police violence, fear of violent crime (especially mass shootings, and most especially mass school shootings), and on and on.

    As a rule, we humans don’t seem to be very good at putting risk in perspective.  It is difficult to do, I suppose.  There’s some sense in considering the worst-case scenario, but if not coupled with some understanding of the low likelihood of that scenario, in most instances, this leads to poor decision-making.

    Most people don’t really seem to engage in such cost-benefit analysis, though.  They just seem to have an emotional reaction to some event or narrative, or more likely, a combination of the two.  It helps if some nefarious person or group can be blamed, as this can engage the tribal instinct, which is often quite sensible.  Such situations can also provide a sense of meaning, by letting people believe that they’re in opposition to some force of evil.

    So everyone gets to pretend that he’s Captain Planet saving us from pollution or global warming, or Captain Kiev or Taipei or Jerusalem saving us from . . . whoever it is.

    Further, people don’t pay much attention to such things, which is actually quite rational.  For me, as an example, my opinion about the war in Ukraine or the Covid pandemic is must less significant, as a practical matter, than remembering to buy laundry detergent before we run out, or to take the trash out.

    So something happens — bat flu in Wuhan or a balloon over Montana or whatever — and people freak out.  News outlets make money with sensational stories that convince people to freak out.  And those people want their leaders to do something!!

    So the leaders do something.  It doesn’t much matter whether it makes sense.  They’re not dealing with rational people. They’re dealing with a hysterical, paranoid mob.

    • #10
  11. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I also think that your view of Christianity is almost completely wrong.

    This may explain your conflation of Christianity with Judaism, which are vastly different religions characterized by complete Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ and some of His early followers, such as the martyr Stephen.

    FWIW Jerry, @rodin is commenting on a Substack piece written by a Jewish woman. If you bothered to read the piece, she explicitly notes that some of her ideas are filtered through her own faith:

    At the time I wrote my initial essay, I knew that “Satan” was, at least for me, an insufficient explanation for the evil I saw. One reason that I felt that “Satan” was an insufficient name for what we were facing, is that I am Jewish, and we don’t have the same tradition of “Satan” that Christian Western culture inherits and takes for granted.

    So I expect the understanding of Christianity to be “off.” Perhaps you should read the Substack post. Just a suggestion.

    • #11
  12. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    I was in the grocery store a few days ago when a man — probably 6’3″ — with facial hair and a long, scruffy hairdo, wearing tights and a froofy black miniskirt walked past me down the aisle. And I thought to myself, “Self, how much disregard must you have for your fellow man (by making a mockery of women, for example) to let your freak flag fly in public, where children are likely present?”

    The loss of civility can be directly tied to the loss of a sense of obligation to each other out of a sense of plain old decency — no matter what one’s religion or lack thereof. But, religion (Judaism and Christianity, in particular) is the school of virtue. And leftism is the school of virtue signaling, which isn’t virtue at all.

    • #12
  13. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    I am going to out on a limb here and predict that while there will be no major revival of Christian or Jewish religious belief in the United States, there will be a reassessment of the excesses of the political left sometime in the next 5 to 10 years.  

    Currently, I think the political right is a bit disoriented ideologically and disorganized logistically and this, among other things, allows the political left to punch above its weight.  However, at some point, perhaps in 2024 with a Republican presidential nominee or perhaps later the political right will become more cohesive and more capable of exploiting the divisions emerging within the political left.  

    As I see, there are many people who are “left of center” but do not like what the transgender movement is doing.  However, they would not vote Republican if their lives depended on it, at least not currently.  Similarly, many on the “left of center” think that the hard left “progressive” position on criminal justice is insane.  These people might be a bit more ready to vote GOP.  But perhaps not quite yet.  

    Of course, there are fiscal issues too.  We have an entitlement program crisis because Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid are eating up a huge proportion of our economy.  This is already probably one of the causes of the inflation we see.  I am not sure how this problem gets solved.  

    However, I don’t think all this talk about “Judeo-Christian values” is going really move the ball down the field because the term “Judeo-Christian values” makes different people think about different things.  Some people hear these words and think of a society where people treat each other well. 

    But others hear these words and think of a time when a woman was told not to go to college unless it was for the purpose of finding a man to marry and then to stay home and raise children.  In other words, that term creates a wide range of responses, some positive and some negative.  

    That’s my take.  I share it even though I know many will not agree with it.  

    • #13
  14. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):
    And yet, governments around the world IGNORED the pandemic action plans that had already been prepared by experts and scientists in the wake of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics.  The reaction to COVID did not follow the normal and sensible response plans that had already been prepared.

    I would like to learn more about these plans. All I have is vague memories of people licking their chops over what they would do in the next pandemic. 

    • #14
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):
    And yet, governments around the world IGNORED the pandemic action plans that had already been prepared by experts and scientists in the wake of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics. The reaction to COVID did not follow the normal and sensible response plans that had already been prepared.

    I would like to learn more about these plans. All I have is vague memories of people licking their chops over what they would do in the next pandemic.

    I think that’s based on what they did in the latest one, and what they planned after that, not the plans that had been in place already but were not followed.

    • #15
  16. Trink Coolidge
    Trink
    @Trink

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    The loss of civility can be directly tied to the loss of a sense of obligation to each other out of a sense of plain old decency — no matter what one’s religion or lack thereof. But, religion (Judaism and Christianity, in particular) is the school of virtue. And leftism is the school of virtue signaling, which isn’t virtue at all.

    Brilliant distillation of where we are!    Amen!

    • #16
  17. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I don’t think all this talk about “Judeo-Christian values” is going really move the ball down the field because the term “Judeo-Christian values” makes different people think about different things.  Some people hear these words and think of a society where people treat each other well.

    I think this is a valid point because of the success of progressivism in “loading” various terms with negative meaning. And here is where progressives did get something right: certain words “trigger” emotions. We have been conditioned to react, like assassin in the Manchurian Candidate, to certain words in certain ways.

    Different audiences need to be approached in different ways. “Coming back to G-d” resonates most with those who have not actually strayed, or at least not very far, from Him. Featuring the utility and value of other principles as a means of ensuring peace will appeal to others who place that objective above anything else. Emphasizing mutual respect will resonate with yet a third group. Those of us who retain our critical think and empathy need to use that to find out how to talk to our target audience.

    • #17
  18. hoowitts Coolidge
    hoowitts
    @hoowitts

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):
    And yet, governments around the world IGNORED the pandemic action plans that had already been prepared by experts and scientists in the wake of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics. The reaction to COVID did not follow the normal and sensible response plans that had already been prepared.

    I would like to learn more about these plans. All I have is vague memories of people licking their chops over what they would do in the next pandemic.

    At the risk of yet another rehash of COVID-1984 policies, here’s just one pre-pandemic reports from 2008 (H1N5 avian flu): https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf

    Yes, it’s ALCU, but before complete TDS and wokeness. It displays an animus toward President G.W. Bush in general (not shocking) and in particular the post 9/11 policies, including the overreaching Patriot Act and CDC’s Model State Emergency Health Powers Act (which many of us would agree with the ACLU critiques)

    There are numerous paradoxical recommendations throughout. It doesn’t give many explicit actions. But of note are these two paragraphs early on (p.7):

    “The threat of a new pandemic will never subside. But the notion that we need to “trade liberty for security” is misguided and dangerous. Public health concerns cannot be addressed with law enforcement or national security tools. If we allow the fear associated with a potential outbreak to justify the suspension of liberties in the name of public health, we risk not only undermining our fundamental rights, but alienating the very communities and individuals that are in need of help and thereby fomenting the spread of disease.

    Maintaining fundamental freedoms is essential for encouraging public trust and cooperation. If our public agencies work hand in hand with communities to provide them with a healthy environment, access to care, and a means for protecting their families, rather than treating them as the enemy, we will be far better prepared for a potential outbreak.”

    This from the ACLU! Expressing such sentiments in late 2020 would have gotten you kicked of social media.

    • #18
  19. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):
    And yet, governments around the world IGNORED the pandemic action plans that had already been prepared by experts and scientists in the wake of the SARS and H1N1 pandemics. The reaction to COVID did not follow the normal and sensible response plans that had already been prepared.

    I would like to learn more about these plans. All I have is vague memories of people licking their chops over what they would do in the next pandemic.

    If this was @misthiocracy  being sarcastic again, never mind. I probably deserve it. 

    • #19
  20. JoshuaFinch Coolidge
    JoshuaFinch
    @JoshuaFinch

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ 

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    • #20
  21. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind.  I am not a Christian myself.  But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    • #21
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    i.e., if it had to be, it had to be, and there’s no sense blaming the Jews for it.

    One could even argue that God made them do it.

    • #22
  23. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament.  Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    • #23
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm.  But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    • #24
  25. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm. But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    The line from Luke 23:34 “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing?” is quite a contrast from the line in Mark 15:34 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”  A quote from Psalm 22:1. 

    In Mark, Jesus appears to believe that God had forsaken him.  In Luke, Jesus appears to have a different attitude. 

    It’s interesting. 

    But I agree.  It was the Romans, not the Jews, who killed Jesus.   

    • #25
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm. But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    The line from Luke 23:34 “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing?” is quite a contrast from the line in Mark 15:34 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” A quote from Psalm 22:1.

    In Mark, Jesus appears to believe that God had forsaken him. In Luke, Jesus appears to have a different attitude.

    It’s interesting.

    But I agree. It was the Romans, not the Jews, who killed Jesus.

    They actually did the execution, but it may be arguable that the Jews set him up.  It’s not something that I’ve done in-depth research on.

    • #26
  27. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm. But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    I think it means that they each didn’t know what they were doing, which was calling for and cheering the crucifixion of an innocent man who also happened to be their own Messiah.

    • #27
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm. But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    I think it means that they each didn’t know what they were doing, which was calling for and cheering the crucifixion of an innocent man who also happened to be their own Messiah.

    Yes, that’s possible too.  But it was the Jews who set that up, wasn’t it?  Even if it was the Romans who actually carried it out.

    • #28
  29. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    JoshuaFinch (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)

    Jewish rejection of Christianity, to the point of orchestrating the killing of Christ

    The “ancient gods” referenced in the OP may or not be back, but the ancient calumny responsible for the shedding of much Jewish blood has returned. It is disappointing to see this malevolent trope appear on Ricochet.

    There are some Christians who think that Jesus had to die in order to wash away the sins of mankind. I am not a Christian myself. But if the Jews were somehow culpable in having Jesus crucified, shouldn’t the Jews be applauded for this or else mankind would remain dead in its sins?

    I don’t read any anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Don’t forget that Jesus prayed that God the Father forgive them because they didn’t know what they were doing.

    Hmm. But was that because they didn’t know he was Christ, other than that their trumped-up conviction and execution was just standard procedure?

    Although I suppose the Romans were more directly responsible for that.

    The line from Luke 23:34 “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing?” is quite a contrast from the line in Mark 15:34 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” A quote from Psalm 22:1.

    In Mark, Jesus appears to believe that God had forsaken him. In Luke, Jesus appears to have a different attitude.

    It’s interesting.

    But I agree. It was the Romans, not the Jews, who killed Jesus.

    They are two different things.  One is Jesus forgiving those who called for His crucifixion, and the other was Jesus responding to His Father turning His back on Jesus because of the repugnance of the sin that was laid on Him.

    • #29
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    But I agree.  It was the Romans, not the Jews, who killed Jesus.   

    I had always been taught that it was people who did it, people including ourselves. I am surprised that Jerry never learned it that way. 

    • #30
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