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The War in Ukraine Is a Proxy War
I find it amazing I have even to make this argument, but here we are.
When the USSR invaded Afghanistan, the Reagan administration made the call to arm the defenders. The stated goal was to bleed our enemy. It was a way to hurt the USSR by proxy. Indeed, on Wikipedia, it is listed as one of the proxy wars of the Cold War.
In more modern times, our forces in Iraq have faced forces supported by Iran. That was a proxy war by Iran with us.
I am being sold on helping Ukraine, in part, as it is doing damage to our enemy, Russia. We are arming and using Ukraine to hurt the nation that is our enemy. The President of America has publicly called for Putin to be deposed, for crying out loud.
Just what do you people think a Proxy War is, anyway? By what criteria is arming another nation to fight our enemy with the stated intention that a reason to do it is to hurt our enemy, not a Proxy War?
I am sorry y’all don’t like the label, but being for arming someone else to fight on our behalf is the very definition of a Proxy War.
Oh, I know, we are also there to save a great and noble people from the evil that is Putin. However, the moment anyone says, “Wait, I am not sure I want to spend treasure fighting every invasion,” we are told, “But this is hurting Russia!” So, sorry, the idea we are doing this to be the good guys is immediately supported by the benefits of a Proxy War. If you want to claim you don’t support a Proxy War, you then don’t get to list as a good “this hurts our enemy, Russia” as a reason for us to be there.
Well, you can, but it is flat-out dishonest.Published in General
I support Ukraine in its effort to defend itself against Putin’s aggression. Yes. This is a proxy war. Ukraine has my full support.
I appreciate that you are honest about what it is. Thank you.
Seems strange to have even had to make this post!
I am not going to debate the policy here, so we can have at it elsewhere!
As I see it, wars can be placed into 1 of 2 categories:  Proxy war and  Direct war.
A proxy war is when a country provides assistance to another country fighting a war.
A direct war is when a country is directly fighting a war.
I much prefer proxy wars over direct wars. So, I do not think of “the Ukraine war is a proxy war” as persuading me to oppose US assistance to Ukraine.
Not even an argument I am making. Here I am just making the argument it is one, since people have pushed back on the idea.
Actually the word proxy means “Proxy definition, the agency, function, or power of a person authorized to act as the deputy or substitute for another.” It is used in war to mean one country engaging in a war on behalf of another. This is often done to avoid full culpability or to deny acts of war on the part of the country employing the proxy.
Ukraine is the proxy for the US against Russia.
What does victory for America look like? Do we really want to go down the path of fragmenting putins regime? If putin loses so much face his regime collapses can we really control what happens with the nukes and who will control them? If putin is facing such a collapse he wouldn’t use the worst weapons he has to do untold damage to civilians in Ukraine to save face and maybe in his mind turn the embarrassment and potential of his ouster around? What is judicious and sober about any of this? And if Ukrainian lives are the goal the prolonging of this into some eventual catastrophe isn’t going to do anything for Ukrainian lives. It’ll just cost more of them. All while our tax dollars get sunk into this. In the end no one will win this if it doesn’t stop. We will be losers all around and our own border still hasn’t been secured.
No, a proxy war is when a country employs another country to fight a war on its behalf.
I have mostly stayed out of this for a year, but I really would like to know, why you prefer proxy wars. Do you really want to use other people as your cannon fodder?
Don’t forget the 2nd proxy war. Xi is letting Russia soften up our military assets and strengthen our isolation urge in preparation for his assault on Taiwan.
Suggesting that the United States is incapable of caring about the Ukrainian people, suggesting that the American people have no interest in preventing Russia from slaughtering the nuclear-defenseless Ukrainian people, is probably one of the most insulting ideas I’ve ever come across. If that’s what this term “proxy war” is suggesting when people use it in relation to U.S. aid to Ukraine, I want no part of it. It is disgusting.
The only the thing the Russians proved in invading Ukraine was that we are right to fear them. It was a horrible thing for them to do. We are better than they are. They need to change. They are hurting people. We are trying to help people.
I love my country because it is a good country. American people are good people. Maybe we’re not doing it right, but we are doing it for the right reasons.
I beleive our policy and one of the main arguments for funding the Ukranians is that they are weakening the Russians which has always been our policy towards Russia. This is more than just repelling the Russians out of Ukraine. It’s obvious and has been stated by many, we want to see their military crushed. Most neo-cons give us the ROI reasoning on funding Ukraine. They openly state we’re helping to destroy Russia for a relatively cheap price. It seems the Ukranians are doing our dirty work.
But the US government is not the American people. We can want to help the Ukrainians, and even have differing ideas on how best to do that. But our unanswerable government is calling the shots. It’s their proxy war, not ours. And they (the US gov’t) want Ukraine to fight to the last man while they (the US gov’t) stay on the sidelines passing out ammunition saying out of one side of their mouths “We’re right beside you, this is our fight, too.” And out of the other, “This is your fight! We can’t get too involved.”
Russia bled white and Ukraine free to decide their own domestic and international policy. Russia removed from Crimea.
No, we can’t control that, but neither did we control what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed. Russia had an attempted hardliner coup too.
He could order them to, but would his forces carry those orders out? We have a couple of cases where Russian forces were ordered to employ nukes (or make notifications that would lead to the mass use of nukes) and in those cases cooler heads prevailed.
Letting the Russians bleed themselves white. They did stick their Johnson in the sausage machine and gleefully turned the crank. We (US nor Ukraine) did not force them to. Putin chose to.
Ukrainian deaths aren’t the goal of this, despite your flawed analysis of the conflict.
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Americans not having to fight Russians is a good thing too.
Everything that has a beginning has an end. This too.
Funny thing about proxy wars. Just because the Proxy loses, doesn’t mean their sponsor does.
Supporters of the war in both political parties have said as much-that the benefit of the war is weakening Russia. They have said so publicly. Putin knows some of our support is to destroy Russia’s military power. I have commented several times that I fear he will consider it an act of war. He has ways to make us suffer. Even if he is removed from power, the oligarchs will get their revenge. Many are out a yacht. There is a reason cruise ships made changes to their Baltic cruise routes.
You are confusing what is happening and what may or may not happen because we got involved to try to help the Ukrainian people with our purposes for doing so.
As for as Russia is concerned, the Americans voted for Biden and share in the blame. I expect we are already seeing counter-value targeting…masquerading as “accidents.”
Funny thing about counter-value targeting- it doesn’t have to be with military weapons. We started alternative counter value when we seized yachts and damaged their natural gas sales.
I’m confusing nothing.
I don’t understand the point of this po0st. It’s not a grand revelation that this is a proxy war. Did you think you were the only one who’s figured it out and you’re enlightening the plebes?
Others did not know or agree on what a proxy war was, or that the Ukraine war is a proxy war, so Bryan wrote this post to clarify.
Several warhawks in Congress have stated this bluntly, none more disappointing than Eyepatch McCain.
I think it’s immoral.
We have several here who refuse to call it what it is. This post may help educate them. (But I doubt it.)
I think we clarified it. It’s waging war on behalf of another. How hard is that?
I didn’t think it was that hard. Especially when members of Congress and this administration are clearly describing it in those terms. They just won’t use the actual word.
And speaking of actual words, “po0st” is not an actual word, but I have decided that I LOVE it, I am going to adopt it, and it will be treasured forever.
Actually, it is quite the reverse. Russia is engaged in a proxy war against NATO in general and America in particular. This is not speculation, he’s said as much…
From his Feb 2022 pre-invasion speech:
Stolen elections have consequences. We had a president who was keeping Putin in check but we had a media and Deep State that spent four years undermining him and telling the public that, actually he’s a Putin puppet. So we had a president who was tough on Putin removed in a coup to be replaced with someone claiming to be tough but got rolled by Putin. Has the CIA removing a leader ever worked out for the better?
This isn’t happening. Russia isn’t going anywhere because they can’t be made to disappear and they’re never giving back Crimea. Unless you want nuclear war and want the US to attack them for that land.
They’re not the goal but it is what is happening and will continue to happen. And putin hasn’t even brought out the big guns yet. That’s due to pressure. But if the pressure internally supersedes the pressure externally he will.
The sponsor does. If the goals can’t be met the sponsor wasted money on a loser and it makes the sponsor and their support look like a joke.
That’s a best-case scenario. In this case, the sponsor will be left impoverished and weaponless.
It’s a Canadian word.
I’ve never claimed to have great typing skills.
I was in “chat” with a co-worker a few years ago, and one of my messages to him was so riddled with typos that he responded with “What language is that?”
Yes. Especially when it is in their interests. Ukraine is in a fight for its survival with Russia that makes them very motivated to succeed. I don’t want the US to be in a fight with Russia, so all things being equal I would prefer that the people with the most to gain and to lose do the fighting. I also would hope that our NATO allies would be the ones providing the most direct support to Ukraine that has been a mixed bag. Poland and the UK are certainly doing their part. Germany not so much, although they haven’t been as bad as possible they could have been that accounts for something. It is definitely a proxy war. It may be in the US interest, but I am profoundly disquieted by the way we are going about it. I feel like we are sleepwalking into WWIII.