Spirituality Is for Wusses

 

Today it’s fashionable for a person to say he is spiritual but not religious. That comment is intended to suggest that the person is above the primitive practices he assumes religious people follow. Only superior people wear the mantle of spirituality, rather than taking on the dogma and rituals of ancient religions.

Only no one really knows what it means to be spiritual. And perhaps, no one cares.

From my perspective, I think people choose to take the easy road to a relationship with the—divine?—because practicing a religion can be demanding, if you follow it, well, religiously. But if you only see the downside of practicing a religious faith, you deprive yourself of what may become a deeply moving and fulfilling lifestyle that no level of spirituality can match.

Why do I celebrate religion? The moral tenets (which many people see as restrictive and limiting) are meant to be the guideposts for living a generous, righteous, and ethical life. But in these times, who cares about following all those rules? The fact that life continually presents us with the challenge of making wise choices is irrelevant; we can just rely on what feels good to us, repercussions be damned.

More than the moral reasons, though, is that religion, from my perspective, teaches us how to relate to the world and everyone around us. It teaches us what not to do, those actions that can cause harm or pain to others. Even more, it teaches us how to be a blessing to the world, how to relate to others in loving and caring ways. It gives us the road signs for when we are getting lost, and the rewards for making an effort to develop solid relationships and to benefit our families and communities and the world.

People who practice spirituality will tell you that they want to save the world, but their actions may demonstrate otherwise. They focus on what they think the rules should be, and act accordingly. Factors such as right or wrong, good or bad, helpful or harmful are irrelevant, because their activities are coming from a “spiritual perspective.” They have the freedom to make their own rules, and are not bound to, or responsible for, the consequences of their actions.

This mindset is a self-centered, narcissistic way to live.

*     *     *     *

Periodically I ask myself about my own religious faith. This time I was motivated to reflect on my observance before and during the Ricochet Meetup in Sarasota. The practices I observe on the Sabbath are minimal, but I try to maintain them and therefore rarely travel. Lighting Sabbath candles, turning off the phone, avoiding TV viewing, staying off the computer, reading Torah commentaries, praying and abstaining from anything that can be called work describes my usual Sabbath observance. It is a very minimal practice, but I have maintained it pretty consistently.

Until I didn’t.

I was determined to have a Florida Meetup, but for a number of reasons, my original plan of a dinner meet-up expanded to a two-day gathering, including Saturday. Nobody twisted my arm. One person asked me about the decision and its effect on my Sabbath practice, but I avoided the question. And it was a lovely time.

But I felt a certain sadness. I was sad that I was willing to sacrifice my simple practices for a time of pleasure. I missed the opportunity to connect with G-d. I have to admit that I also felt guilty, not only for dismissing G-d but disappointing myself.

I won’t spend a lot of time beating myself up about my decision. I know that G-d was present even if I wasn’t. But my Sabbath observance is the one commitment I want to maintain.

From now on, I aim to do it.

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  1. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Believe the above if you wish. No way believing that would give me comfort. What is the selling point of atheism? What makes it better?

    I don’t think most people convert from Christianity into atheism in order to gain comfort.

     

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Like I said, I won’t nitpick myself into hell. You seems racked with hypothesis while I am content with not overthinking my beliefs.

    You are content with assuming that [a] hell exists and that [b] Christians don’t go to hell.

    But either of those assumptions might be wrong.

    There is a greater danger to you if you are wrong. 

    • #91
  2. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Believe the above if you wish. No way believing that would give me comfort. What is the selling point of atheism? What makes it better?

     

     

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

     

     

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Those strawmen don’t stand a chance!

    Finding a case of another religion believing something different isn’t quite the sovereign comeback you seem to think it is.

    Saying, “I don’t want to go to hell,” isn’t the sovereign comeback that you seem to think it is.

    If hell doesn’t exist, it’s a different ball game, isn’t it?

    I’m not trying to convince you. Only you can do that, and only if you seek it. It’s “seek and ye shall find,” not “show no curiosity and it will be dropped in your lap.”

    Very few scientific truths are found that way either.

    Would you say the same thing to a Jewish person who doesn’t believe that Jesus is Lord? After all, according to many Christians, Jews will go to hell because they do not accept Jesus as Lord.

    So, believe in God is one thing. Belief in Jesus is another. And belief in the existence of hell for everyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord is another.

    Perhaps you accept all three assumptions. But not everyone does.

    I really don’t care what you believe. You can believe in enjoying an afterlife or you can believe you will be recycled into 10 10 10. 

    • #92
  3. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Those strawmen don’t stand a chance!

    Finding a case of another religion believing something different isn’t quite the sovereign comeback you seem to think it is.

    Saying, “I don’t want to go to hell,” isn’t the sovereign comeback that you seem to think it is.

    If hell doesn’t exist, it’s a different ball game, isn’t it?

    So…hockey? 

    • #93
  4. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Believe the above if you wish. No way believing that would give me comfort. What is the selling point of atheism? What makes it better?

    I don’t think most people convert from Christianity into atheism in order to gain comfort.

     

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Like I said, I won’t nitpick myself into hell. You seems racked with hypothesis while I am content with not overthinking my beliefs.

    You are content with assuming that [a] hell exists and that [b] Christians don’t go to hell.

    But either of those assumptions might be wrong.

    There is a greater danger to you if you are wrong.

    Not true.  

    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

     

    • #94
  5. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Most Jews do not believe that the New Testament is an entirely accurate account of Jesus’s life and ministry.  

     

    Have you taken a poll? You speak with great authority on the matter.

    • #95
  6. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Believe the above if you wish. No way believing that would give me comfort. What is the selling point of atheism? What makes it better?

    I don’t think most people convert from Christianity into atheism in order to gain comfort.

    I have watched lots of YouTube videos where various people explain how they switched from someone who would spent hours and hours each week studying the bible and attending religious services to someone who concluded that the Bible was written by human beings, not God, who more likely than not does not exist.

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    A great Christian philosophers was arguing with an atheist friend, and finally said to this effect, “OK, assuming I am wrong in my belief in God; am I any worse off? What happens to you if I am correct?”

    • #96
  7. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Like I said, I won’t nitpick myself into hell. You seems racked with hypothesis while I am content with not overthinking my beliefs.

    You are content with assuming that [a] hell exists and that [b] Christians don’t go to hell.

    But either of those assumptions might be wrong.

    There is a greater danger to you if you are wrong.

    Not true.

    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

     

    Those “ifs” aren’t worthy of discussion. 

    • #97
  8. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Believe the above if you wish. No way believing that would give me comfort. What is the selling point of atheism? What makes it better?

    I don’t think most people convert from Christianity into atheism in order to gain comfort.

    I have watched lots of YouTube videos where various people explain how they switched from someone who would spent hours and hours each week studying the bible and attending religious services to someone who concluded that the Bible was written by human beings, not God, who more likely than not does not exist.

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    A great Christian philosophers was arguing with an atheist friend, and finally said to this effect, “OK, assuming I am wrong in my belief in God; am I any worse off? What happens to you if I am correct?”

    If there is no God, presumably no one goes to hell.  

    However, if God exists and is angered by Christians misrepresenting him, attributing divine status to a human being (Jesus), God could severely punish Christians by sending them to hell and allowing atheists into heaven.  

    • #98
  9. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

    They reached this conclusion, in many cases, not because this conclusion was comforting, but because they had a sense that this was an accurate representation of reality.

    Of course, each of us are fallible. We might think that X does or does not exist and we can be wrong. That should be obvious to anyone with a sense of humility and/or the limitations of human cognitive ability.

    Can’t believe in God because they can’t see him but can believe in the unseen thing in your quote below:

    However, many atheists do subscribe to what is known in moral philosophy circles as non-natural moral realism, which is the belief that at least one moral fact exists independently of whether any person thinks the moral fact(s) exist.

    This is a big philosophical question. If I can’t see bacteria, should I believe that bacteria exists in part because most biologists tell me that bacteria exits? Many philosophers think that a non-biologist is justified in believing that bacteria does exist despite never having laid eyes of bacteria.

    But what about elephants in my back yard. I go to my back yard and don’t see any elephants. So, I don’t believe that any elephants in my back yard exist. One could argue that I am justified in disbelieving in elephants in my back yard because if they did exist in this way, I would see them.

    But the response could be, “What about invisible elephants in your back yard?”

    I just hope I don’t nitpick myself into hell.

    This assumes that hell exists. Also, if hell does exist and some Muslim religious leaders are to be believed, Christians are going to hell along with the atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

    No matter what your religious beliefs are, someone holds to a theological belief that you are going to hell.

    But the existence of hell and who does or doesn’t end up going to hell (if it exists) is not verifiable in the same what that the existence of Pennsylvania is. Not that verifiability is everything.

    Like I said, I won’t nitpick myself into hell. You seems racked with hypothesis while I am content with not overthinking my beliefs.

    You are content with assuming that [a] hell exists and that [b] Christians don’t go to hell.

    But either of those assumptions might be wrong.

    There is a greater danger to you if you are wrong.

    Not true.

    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

     

    Those “ifs” aren’t worthy of discussion.

    I could say the same thing regarding “if Christianity is true.”  Not worthy of discussion.

    Certainly Jews, Hindus, Muslim and Buddhists aren’t banking on the truth of Christianity.  

    • #99
  10. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    @heavywater you get a lot wrong about Christianity with your all-encompassing arm-waving. Here are two examples:

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

    And from comment #89: “After all, according to many Christians, Jews will go to hell because they do not accept Jesus as Lord.”

    This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

    God does not send anyone to Hell – going to Hell is a free choice made with free will by the individual.

    The Church teaches extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation). In other words, if we are saved, we are saved through Christ and the Church.

     

    • #100
  11. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

     

    Like I said, I won’t nitpick myself into hell. You seems racked with hypothesis while I am content with not overthinking my beliefs.

    You are content with assuming that [a] hell exists and that [b] Christians don’t go to hell.

    But either of those assumptions might be wrong.

    There is a greater danger to you if you are wrong.

    Not true.

    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

     

    Those “ifs” aren’t worthy of discussion.

    I could say the same thing regarding “if Christianity is true.” Not worthy of discussion.

    Certainly Jews, Hindus, Muslim and Buddhists aren’t banking on the truth of Christianity.

    Believe what you want. No atheist has ever convinced me to be one. The Bible is such a great historical document that archeologists use it to find ancient cities. Christianity is a greater good than atheism. All atheism does is allow the pursuit of self-centered behavior. The more militant atheists become intolerable bores. Granted, some religious folks become intolerable prudes. I prefer the latter to the former. 

    • #101
  12. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    @ heavywater you get a lot wrong about Christianity with your all-encompassing arm-waving. Here are two examples:

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

    And from comment #89: “After all, according to many Christians, Jews will go to hell because they do not accept Jesus as Lord.”

    This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

    God does not send anyone to Hell – going to Hell is a free choice made with free will by the individual.

    The Church teaches extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation). In other words, if we are saved, we are saved through Christ and the Church.

     

    Semantics.  

    The bottom line is that according to many Christians, if you do not accept Jesus, you go to hell.  This would include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and others.  

    • #102
  13. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

    I could say the same thing regarding “if Christianity is true.” Not worthy of discussion.

    Certainly Jews, Hindus, Muslim and Buddhists aren’t banking on the truth of Christianity.

    Believe what you want. No atheist has ever convinced me to be one. The Bible is such a great historical document that archeologists use it to find ancient cities. Christianity is a greater good than atheism. All atheism does is allow the pursuit of self-centered behavior. The more militant atheists become intolerable bores. Granted, some religious folks become intolerable prudes. I prefer the latter to the former.

    I am not trying to convince you to be an atheist.  

    My point is that when some argue that, “One advantage to being a Christian is that you get to go to heaven and avoid hell,” this assumes that some variant of Christian theology is true. 

    However, if God is offended by people worshipping a man, Jesus, as God, and desires to punish those who engage in this behavior, being a Christians is a one way ticket to eternal conscious torment: Hell.  

    Obviously, ones beliefs have a huge influence on one’s behavior.   

    If one believes that Christianity is true, then one is likely to convert to Christianity.  However, if one believes that Christianity is false, then one is not likely to convert to Christianity.  

    • #103
  14. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    @ heavywater you get a lot wrong about Christianity with your all-encompassing arm-waving. Here are two examples:

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    If God exists and God sends Christians to hell and atheists to heaven, then you are in danger and I am not.

    And from comment #89: “After all, according to many Christians, Jews will go to hell because they do not accept Jesus as Lord.”

    This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

    God does not send anyone to Hell – going to Hell is a free choice made with free will by the individual.

    The Church teaches extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation). In other words, if we are saved, we are saved through Christ and the Church.

     

    Semantics.

    The bottom line is that according to many Christians, if you do not accept Jesus, you go to hell. This would include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and others.

    Yes, semantics is the study of meaning and I gave you the Catholic meaning of the phrases you dispute. The bottom line is that many people are as ignorant as you on these issues.

    • #104
  15. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

    I could say the same thing regarding “if Christianity is true.” Not worthy of discussion.

    Certainly Jews, Hindus, Muslim and Buddhists aren’t banking on the truth of Christianity.

    Believe what you want. No atheist has ever convinced me to be one. The Bible is such a great historical document that archeologists use it to find ancient cities. Christianity is a greater good than atheism. All atheism does is allow the pursuit of self-centered behavior. The more militant atheists become intolerable bores. Granted, some religious folks become intolerable prudes. I prefer the latter to the former.

    I am not trying to convince you to be an atheist.

    My point is that when some argue that, “One advantage to being a Christian is that you get to go to heaven and avoid hell,” this assumes that some variant of Christian theology is true.

    However, if God is offended by people worshipping a man, Jesus, as God, and desires to punish those who engage in this behavior, being a Christians is a one way ticket to eternal conscious torment: Hell.

    Obviously, ones beliefs have a huge influence on one’s behavior.

    If one believes that Christianity is true, then one is likely to convert to Christianity. However, if one believes that Christianity is false, then one is not likely to convert to Christianity.

    I do believe one’s beliefs, including atheism, influence one’s behavior. I would much rather be surrounded by Christians than atheists. An atheist once wrote that he would, too. I should have added a screenshot of that to my collection. 

    christians recognize the imperfections and even sinful nature of mankind and the need for God’s guidance and a path for forgiveness.  Most atheists believe they themselves are perfect enough to be the source of their own morality. Even worse, many look to government to be the source of morality. The government is incapable of being the source of morality. It can only determine legal verses illegal. 

    • #105
  16. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

     

    I could say the same thing regarding “if Christianity is true.” Not worthy of discussion.

    Certainly Jews, Hindus, Muslim and Buddhists aren’t banking on the truth of Christianity.

    Believe what you want. No atheist has ever convinced me to be one. The Bible is such a great historical document that archeologists use it to find ancient cities. Christianity is a greater good than atheism. All atheism does is allow the pursuit of self-centered behavior. The more militant atheists become intolerable bores. Granted, some religious folks become intolerable prudes. I prefer the latter to the former.

    I am not trying to convince you to be an atheist.

    My point is that when some argue that, “One advantage to being a Christian is that you get to go to heaven and avoid hell,” this assumes that some variant of Christian theology is true.

    However, if God is offended by people worshipping a man, Jesus, as God, and desires to punish those who engage in this behavior, being a Christians is a one way ticket to eternal conscious torment: Hell.

    Obviously, ones beliefs have a huge influence on one’s behavior.

    If one believes that Christianity is true, then one is likely to convert to Christianity. However, if one believes that Christianity is false, then one is not likely to convert to Christianity.

    I do believe one’s beliefs, including atheism, influence one’s behavior. I would much rather be surrounded by Christians than atheists. An atheist once wrote that he would, too. I should have added a screenshot of that to my collection.

    christians recognize the imperfections and even sinful nature of mankind and the need for God’s guidance and a path for forgiveness. Most atheists believe they themselves are perfect enough to be the source of their own morality. Even worse, many look to government to be the source of morality. The government is incapable of being the source of morality. It can only determine legal verses illegal.

    Many Christians don’t acknowledge that their conceptions of God might very well be imperfect.  

    Many atheists believe that human beings are imperfect because we are NOT made in God’s image but are instead a result of the evolutionary process. 

    The reason why some people are born with defective hearts, kidneys, hearing, sight, etc is a result of the evolutionary process.  

    A Supreme Being that designed human beings would likely design human beings to be born with defective hearts, kidneys, hearing, sight, etc.  

    All of this is to say that it is the Christian that fails to acknowledge the imperfections of human beings, not the atheist.  

    • #106
  17. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    People who would rather be surrounded by Christians instead of non-Christians would, if they were serious about this belief, move to places like Sub-Saharan Africa and Central America, where Christianity is still strong, not in the developed world where non-belief in Christianity is on the rise.

    But you don’t see many American Christians moving to El Salvador or Nigeria because their belief that it is better to live among Christians than among non-Christians isn’t as strong as they present it to be.

    • #107
  18. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    But you don’t see many American Christians moving to El Salvador or Nigeria because their belief that it is better to live among Christians than among non-Christians isn’t as strong as they present it to be.

    Gone from telling people what to believe to telling them how to live?

    • #108
  19. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    People who would rather be surrounded by Christians instead of non-Christians would, if they were serious about this belief, move to places like Sub-Saharan Africa and Central America, where Christianity is still strong, not in the developed world where non-belief in Christianity is on the rise.

    But you don’t see many American Christians moving to El Salvador or Nigeria because their belief that it is better to live among Christians than among non-Christians isn’t as strong as they present it to be.

    America is now a mission field.  

    • #109
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    People who would rather be surrounded by Christians instead of non-Christians would, if they were serious about this belief, move to places like Sub-Saharan Africa and Central America, where Christianity is still strong, not in the developed world where non-belief in Christianity is on the rise.

    But you don’t see many American Christians moving to El Salvador or Nigeria because their belief that it is better to live among Christians than among non-Christians isn’t as strong as they present it to be.

    You missed the understood but unspoken qualifier. 

    • #110
  21. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    People who would rather be surrounded by Christians instead of non-Christians would, if they were serious about this belief, move to places like Sub-Saharan Africa and Central America, where Christianity is still strong, not in the developed world where non-belief in Christianity is on the rise.

    But you don’t see many American Christians moving to El Salvador or Nigeria because their belief that it is better to live among Christians than among non-Christians isn’t as strong as they present it to be.

    I live in the “Bible Belt.” I pass three churches before I have driven a half mile from my house. I’m good.

    • #111
  22. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Many Christians don’t acknowledge that their conceptions of God might very well be imperfect.

    Many atheists believe that human beings are imperfect because we are NOT made in God’s image but are instead a result of the evolutionary process

    The reason why some people are born with defective hearts, kidneys, hearing, sight, etc is a result of the evolutionary process.

    A Supreme Being that designed human beings would likely design human beings to be born with defective hearts, kidneys, hearing, sight, etc.

    All of this is to say that it is the Christian that fails to acknowledge the imperfections of human beings, not the atheist.

    The human body is an amazing and complicated thing. Birth defects don’t shake my confidence in God. Why should it? All sorts of things can cause birth defects including lifestyle choices. For one to believe in the evolutionary process, one must believe that humans have evolved into many genders that can no longer reproduce and sustain the species. After thousands upon thousands of years with no evolution, this new evolution happened over a generation. Fancy that. I don’t think evolution can explain humans. Even Darwin tried and failed, and realized his failure. 

    Until I meet God in heaven, I will have an imperfect understanding of Him. 

    Dwell on this if you wish. I prefer to drag out my telescope and look at the magnificent universe my God created. The left wishes to play god but only destroys. The left is full of atheists.

    You strike me as someone seeking excuses so he doesn’t have to believe or perhaps someone who boosts self esteem by feeling more enlightened than us mere Christians. Or maybe you just like to argue. I have already told you I don’t care what you believe. Atheists bore me. I would be miserable if I were one. 

    • #112
  23. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    You strike me as someone seeking excuses so he doesn’t have to believe or perhaps someone who boosts self esteem by feeling more enlightened than us mere Christians.

    Remember the bit from Matthew 7:7? “Seek and ye shall find.” It applies to looking for reasons not to believe as well. If you are determined to find yourself the ultimate intellect in the cosmos, such things are of comfort.

    It works for Richard Dawkins.

    • #113
  24. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Percival (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    You strike me as someone seeking excuses so he doesn’t have to believe or perhaps someone who boosts self esteem by feeling more enlightened than us mere Christians.

    Remember the bit from Matthew 7:7? “Seek and ye shall find.” It applies to looking for reasons not to believe as well. If you are determined to find yourself the ultimate intellect in the cosmos, such things are of comfort.

    It works for Richard Dawkins.

    A find it harder to not believe than to believe. I have the Bible, which, in the KJV, is a magnificent work of literature in addition to providing God’s guidance, much like a father’s guidance. It is also a great historical record. I look at this magnificent planet and the vast universe. Only a belief in God can explain its existence. He questions Jesus, who was predicted in the Old Testament. As far as the difference between us and Jews over Jesus, I don’t care. I have noticed that throughout recorded history, societies that have attacked them have not fared well. For the practicing Jews, their love and worship of God serves them well. I will not be so arrogant that I question them or the ways our faith differs. For our love of God, we are family.

    • #114
  25. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    As for as the difference between us and Jews over Jesus, I don’t care. I have noticed that throughout recorded history, societies that have attacked them have not fared well. For the practicing Jews, their love and worship of God serves them well. I will not be so arrogant that I question them or the ways our faith differs. For our love of God, we are family. 

    Thank you for this, RH. I feel the same toward my Christian friends.

    • #115
  26. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):
    As for as the difference between us and Jews over Jesus, I don’t care. I have noticed that throughout recorded history, societies that have attacked them have not fared well. For the practicing Jews, their love and worship of God serves them well. I will not be so arrogant that I question them or the ways our faith differs. For our love of God, we are family.

    Thank you for this, RH. I feel the same toward my Christian friends.

    It is not a difficult concept. I do not believe that Jews didn’t have a path to salvation before Jesus arrived. Of course, they did. The birth of Jesus and the apostles started the spread of Christianity and of God’s word throughout the world. We don’t have to convert to Judaism to have that path but can be Christians and follow the path of Jesus.We will end up of the same destination.

     

     

     

    • #116
  27. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    What good religion does is provide its adherents with a morally, emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually deep way to express the nonrational. Therefore, they can remain rational everywhere outside of religion. The secular, having no religion within which to innocuously express the nonrational, often end up doing so elsewhere in life.

    So only the religious believe “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,” but they do not believe men give birth. Meanwhile the irreligious don’t believe “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,” but only they believe men give birth.

    https://amgreatness.com/2023/01/24/whos-more-irrational-the-religious-or-the-irreligious/

    • #117
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