Spirituality Is for Wusses

 

Today it’s fashionable for a person to say he is spiritual but not religious. That comment is intended to suggest that the person is above the primitive practices he assumes religious people follow. Only superior people wear the mantle of spirituality, rather than taking on the dogma and rituals of ancient religions.

Only no one really knows what it means to be spiritual. And perhaps, no one cares.

From my perspective, I think people choose to take the easy road to a relationship with the—divine?—because practicing a religion can be demanding, if you follow it, well, religiously. But if you only see the downside of practicing a religious faith, you deprive yourself of what may become a deeply moving and fulfilling lifestyle that no level of spirituality can match.

Why do I celebrate religion? The moral tenets (which many people see as restrictive and limiting) are meant to be the guideposts for living a generous, righteous, and ethical life. But in these times, who cares about following all those rules? The fact that life continually presents us with the challenge of making wise choices is irrelevant; we can just rely on what feels good to us, repercussions be damned.

More than the moral reasons, though, is that religion, from my perspective, teaches us how to relate to the world and everyone around us. It teaches us what not to do, those actions that can cause harm or pain to others. Even more, it teaches us how to be a blessing to the world, how to relate to others in loving and caring ways. It gives us the road signs for when we are getting lost, and the rewards for making an effort to develop solid relationships and to benefit our families and communities and the world.

People who practice spirituality will tell you that they want to save the world, but their actions may demonstrate otherwise. They focus on what they think the rules should be, and act accordingly. Factors such as right or wrong, good or bad, helpful or harmful are irrelevant, because their activities are coming from a “spiritual perspective.” They have the freedom to make their own rules, and are not bound to, or responsible for, the consequences of their actions.

This mindset is a self-centered, narcissistic way to live.

*     *     *     *

Periodically I ask myself about my own religious faith. This time I was motivated to reflect on my observance before and during the Ricochet Meetup in Sarasota. The practices I observe on the Sabbath are minimal, but I try to maintain them and therefore rarely travel. Lighting Sabbath candles, turning off the phone, avoiding TV viewing, staying off the computer, reading Torah commentaries, praying and abstaining from anything that can be called work describes my usual Sabbath observance. It is a very minimal practice, but I have maintained it pretty consistently.

Until I didn’t.

I was determined to have a Florida Meetup, but for a number of reasons, my original plan of a dinner meet-up expanded to a two-day gathering, including Saturday. Nobody twisted my arm. One person asked me about the decision and its effect on my Sabbath practice, but I avoided the question. And it was a lovely time.

But I felt a certain sadness. I was sad that I was willing to sacrifice my simple practices for a time of pleasure. I missed the opportunity to connect with G-d. I have to admit that I also felt guilty, not only for dismissing G-d but disappointing myself.

I won’t spend a lot of time beating myself up about my decision. I know that G-d was present even if I wasn’t. But my Sabbath observance is the one commitment I want to maintain.

From now on, I aim to do it.

Published in Religion & Philosophy
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  1. JoshuaFinch Coolidge
    JoshuaFinch
    @JoshuaFinch

    “The righteous fall seven times and rise again.”  Proverbs 24:16

    The hasidic view is that depression, immobilizing sadness, or paralyzing guilt from having committed a sin is worse than the sin itself.  We are all flesh and blood and we all sin.  However, prolonged rumination over a sin is unforgivable because it keeps us from moving forward.  In Hebrew, the word for sin is “het” (guttural h) which also means “missing the mark,” as when you shoot an arrow at a target and miss.  In other words, our intentions were good but our aim was off.

    Furthermore, if we undergo change after regretting a particular sin, that sin actually becomes a merit in the final reckoning.

    • #31
  2. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Susan, you say: “Today it’s fashionable for a person to say he is spiritual but not religious. That comment is intended to suggest that the person is above the primitive practices he assumes religious people follow. Only superior people wear the mantle of spirituality, rather than taking on the dogma and rituals of ancient religions.

    “Only no one really knows what it means to be spiritual. And perhaps, no one cares.”

    What ancient religions are being practiced today?

    Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism and the Muslim faiths are over 1,000 years old. Here in the USA, most Americans know very little about Buddhism, or Hinduism. And most of us know very little  about the Muslim faith.

    The Protestant faiths are relatively new, beginning with Martin Luther’s first original 1517 protests against the Catholic Church.

    But for the sake of discussion it should be important to include the various Protestant sects. (I have never figured out if the even newer faith of The Mormon Church is Protestant or not. What do others here think?)

    Judaism has various internal divisions, especially given that the Orthodox Jewish family leads a rather different life than the Jewish family who is not orthodox.

    Catholicism can be divided into the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    As far as Protestant religions, there are the Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, evangelical, various fundamental protestant denominations.

    There are also the modern American churches of B’hai, and Unity and Unitarian.

    It is not that unusual for someone who is born a Catholic to later on become comfortable being one of the Protestant sects. While Protestants have been known to become Catholics.

    Jewish people have become Christians, Christians have become Jewish.

    What is sad is when those who who were born in a faith and then find themselves both thinking and feeling that their religion works for them, or when those individuals who have made a change and are happy with the change can then use this gift to  pat themselves on the back and state that they are better than the merely “spiritual.”

    After all, some people try one approach  or the other, and then decide that their needs for a devotion to God does not include being part of a church. Being “homeless” as far as a faith  can be especially frustrating if someone had early on found  a congregation that they feel at home with. The church is faithfully attended but then things change:  those in the church’s hierarchy  decide politics should raise  its head each and every service. The ministers or priests insist on rallying the congregation to support this war or that one, or else, in this day and age to support being Woke as well as the war in The Ukraine.

    So those who are at home with a faith & with a group of people that they routinely meet with for devotions should be grateful. I don’t see the necessity of spending time besmirching the rest of us.

    • #32
  3. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Anecdotal evidence only, but I observe that the ‘spiritual but not religious’ self-definition is employed mostly by women.

    True! I don’t think I’ve ever heard a man say it.

    I have, but they are “on the prowl” so to speak. Women are often attracted to such guys. 

    • #33
  4. garyinabq Member
    garyinabq
    @garyinabq

    David Foster (View Comment):

    In Goethe’s Faust, the title character is trying to seduce the innocent Gretchen…but there is an obstacle–Grechen is concerned that Faust is not a believing Christian. He says a bunch of things like:

    “The all-embracing, the all-sustaining…eternal stars…each other’s eyes…timeless mystery…I do not have a name for this. Feeling is all. Names are but sound and smoke Befogging heaven’s blazes”

    Spiritual but not religious!

     

    Goethe’s Faust is filled with spirituality although he specifically rejects the Christian religion.  But when he dies, after losing his bet with Mephistopheles (complicated details here), he should go to hell, but Gretchen’s spirit intervenes and snatches his soul and takes it to heaven.  Why did Goethe write it this way?  Of course, he could write it any way he chose, but I think he was hoping that ending would happen to him, that even though he rejected the religion that would determine what happened, he hoped he could sneak in.  He must have had some feeling that spirituality without religion fell short.

    • #34
  5. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    garyinabq (View Comment):

    David Foster (View Comment):

    In Goethe’s Faust, the title character is trying to seduce the innocent Gretchen…but there is an obstacle–Grechen is concerned that Faust is not a believing Christian. He says a bunch of things like:

    “The all-embracing, the all-sustaining…eternal stars…each other’s eyes…timeless mystery…I do not have a name for this. Feeling is all. Names are but sound and smoke Befogging heaven’s blazes”

    Spiritual but not religious!

     

    Goethe’s Faust is filled with spirituality although he specifically rejects the Christian religion. But when he dies, after losing his bet with Mephistopheles (complicated details here), he should go to hell, but Gretchen’s spirit intervenes and snatches his soul and takes it to heaven. Why did Goethe write it this way? Of course, he could write it any way he chose, but I think he was hoping that ending would happen to him, that even though he rejected the religion that would determine what happened, he hoped he could sneak in. He must have had some feeling that spirituality without religion fell short.

    Very interesting, Gary! Thanks!

    • #35
  6. Chris Hutchinson Coolidge
    Chris Hutchinson
    @chrishutch13

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Anecdotal evidence only, but I observe that the ‘spiritual but not religious’ self-definition is employed mostly by women.

    True! I don’t think I’ve ever heard a man say it.

    I have, but they are “on the prowl” so to speak. Women are often attracted to such guys.

    I’ve heard plenty of guys say it. I said it in my mid-20s. I was recently divorced and may have been “on the prowl” though. I’m not really sure. Hard to tell if I was to be honest. I think it was more for the reasons Susan mentioned. I didn’t really have a problem with the Judeo-Christian God (though I did give yoga a try) but I was definitely not into “institutionalized religion” or corporate worship or anything self-sacrificial for sure!

    The other guys who I’ve heard it from have been saying it to me so hard to imagine being “on the prowl” was the main reason. In my conversations with those young men, it always seemed their reasons were closer to mine in my 20s.

    • #36
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Is one reason people say it that quite often religion as it is practiced lacks spirituality? And people feel that lack?

    • #37
  8. garyinabq Member
    garyinabq
    @garyinabq

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Is one reason people say it that quite often religion as it is practiced lacks spirituality? And people feel that lack?

    That can happen but a good church with scriptural foundation will teach “spiritual formation” as essential to the faith.  It’s having more than head knowledge but it’s not exactly heart knowledge either.  It is understanding the active force of God working in and through you.  And that takes different forms for each of us.

    • #38
  9. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Is one reason people say it that quite often religion as it is practiced lacks spirituality? And people feel that lack?

    I like Gary’s answer, although I don’t know any of the specifics of “spiritual formation.” I think people may have preconceptions of what they should experience, or how they should experience G-d in their lives; that may unconsciously create a block. Prayer and meditation can help, but there are other ways, too. But it’s hard to know the process that will work best for a given individual.

    • #39
  10. garyinabq Member
    garyinabq
    @garyinabq

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Is one reason people say it that quite often religion as it is practiced lacks spirituality? And people feel that lack?

    I like Gary’s answer, although I don’t know any of the specifics of “spiritual formation.” I think people may have preconceptions of what they should experience, or how they should experience G-d in their lives; that may unconsciously create a block. Prayer and meditation can help, but there are other ways, too. But it’s hard to know the process that will work best for a given individual.

    I can only understand it in the Christian context.  Jesus is both immanent (here with us) and transcendent (beyond us).  That pipeline goes both ways and by following and trying to become like him, spiritual experience is available to us.  

    • #40
  11. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Is one reason people say it that quite often religion as it is practiced lacks spirituality? And people feel that lack?

    I like Gary’s answer, although I don’t know any of the specifics of “spiritual formation.” I think people may have preconceptions of what they should experience, or how they should experience G-d in their lives; that may unconsciously create a block. Prayer and meditation can help, but there are other ways, too. But it’s hard to know the process that will work best for a given individual.

    I read this post by Fr. Powell for the Feast of the Holy Innocents. I think he gets at the reason some say they’re “spiritual, not religious”:

    All this week we are drawn to contemplate the implications of God becoming flesh for our salvation. And the Church has specific ways of jarring us out of the sentimentality of a Christmas celebration too small for the Event that has changed all of humanity and even the entire creation! Have I got your attention yet?

    I know some may think “Wow, the Orthodox Faith really is trying to smash our happy time.” And you’d be right. The Faith isn’t trying to make you “happy” or “nostalgic” or even “sentimental.” The Faith is meant to transform you into a “new creation.” And that isn’t going to happen to people enslaved to sentimentality and nostalgia.

    (Substitute “Jewish”, “Catholic”, whatever, for the “Orthodox” in “the Orthodox Faith.”)

    It seems that many just want sentimentality rather than the discipline and worship that a “religion” provides. As for me, I’ll take the one that transforms me.

    • #41
  12. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Catholicism can be divided into the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    OK, sorry to nitpick here, but accuracy is helpful and this happens to be a pet peeve of mine, albeit a small one: There are 24 churches within Catholicism. The largest one is the Latin, or Roman, church. There are 23 others which are in communion with Rome and recognize the primacy of the papacy. There are 6 rites – the Latin Rite, which contains one church; the Alexandrian Rite, which contains three churches; the West Syrian (Antiochene) Rite, which contains 3 churches; the Armenian Rite, which contains one church; the East Syrian (Chaldean) Rite, which contains two churches; and the Constantinopolitan (Byzantine) Rite, which contains fourteen churches.

    There are several Orthodox churches that are not in communion with Rome. The Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Catholic Church.

    • #42
  13. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    The nice thing about ‘spirituality’ is that you can never be called out for hypocrisy. 

    The nasty thing about religion is that some people really enjoy calling people out for hypocrisy. 

    • #43
  14. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan,

    I think one reason (I don’t know if it is the main reason) why some people are not religious is because while they might think that a God or multiple gods exist, they might not be convinced of any particular “theory of God.”

    In other words, they might not think that the Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints) understand God correctly, nor are they convinced that the Baptists or the Lutherans or the Catholics or the Jews or the Muslims have a good understanding of God either.

    It’s not that they view themselves as having a good understanding of who God is, what God wants and how God interacts with His creation.  It’s just that when they attend a church service, they don’t think that the minister or rabbi is saying anything that is necessarily truer than what someone else might say regarding God.

    It’s not like a math problem where two people provide “answers” and someone says, “Jim has the correct answer.  Ralph has the wrong answer.”

    With God, it’s very difficult to just verify that what some minister or rabbi or pastor is saying is actually correct and not just their opinion.  So, some people wonder if they actually should adhere to the tenets of a religion beyond “treating others well” and having compassion towards people who are struggling.

    That’s my take.  I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    • #44
  15. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take.  I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    • #45
  16. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    In Dante’s Inferno, the majority of damned souls aren’t even in Hell proper, but in the vestibule of Hell, condemned to chase through the mist a flag receding in the distance, while being stung by hornets to goad them along.  These are the people who chose to sit out the great questions of life.

    • #46
  17. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    I suppose it depends on the person.  

    But let’s say some Jewish Rabbi tells you that you should avoid consuming shellfish.  You could just say, “Ok.  I will avoid consuming shellfish.”  

    But one could also wonder, “Why would God care if I consume shellfish?”  At somepoint, one might question the underlying theology behind the command “Don’t eat shellfish.”  

    I personally don’t eat shellfish very often because I want to keep my cholesterol low.  But that’s not usually what religions are about.  It isn’t about You.  It’s about God.  

    That begs the question: What does God want?  Different people have different answers.  At some point one might think, “I think my understanding is about as good as that pastor who preached in church last Sunday.”

    I certainly felt this way when I listened to a church service where the pastor used college basketball as an analogy for his sermon.  I realized that this guy was just a guy.  He had no special insight into the Maker Of The Universe.  

    Once someone reaches that conclusion, it’s hard to get them to adhere to a list of do’s and don’ts because some religious sect says so.  

    • #47
  18. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    In Dante’s Inferno, the majority of damned souls aren’t even in Hell proper, but in the vestibule of Hell, condemned to chase through the mist a flag receding in the distance, while being stung by hornets to goad them along. These are the people who chose to sit out the great questions of life.

    There are some people who devoted entire decades of their lives to studying the Bible in its original languages and also studying church history in depth and then concluding that their religious beliefs might not be correct after all.  

    That’s not a case of sitting out the great questions of life.  It’s a case of asking the questions and realizing that there are multitude of possible answers that need exploring, possibly outside of a particular religious sect.  

    • #48
  19. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Susan,

    I think one reason (I don’t know if it is the main reason) why some people are not religious is because while they might think that a God or multiple gods exist, they might not be convinced of any particular “theory of God.”

    In other words, they might not think that the Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints) understand God correctly, nor are they convinced that the Baptists or the Lutherans or the Catholics or the Jews or the Muslims have a good understanding of God either.

    It’s not that they view themselves as having a good understanding of who God is, what God wants and how God interacts with His creation. It’s just that when they attend a church service, they don’t think that the minister or rabbi is saying anything that is necessarily truer than what someone else might say regarding God.

    It’s not like a math problem where two people provide “answers” and someone says, “Jim has the correct answer. Ralph has the wrong answer.”

    With God, it’s very difficult to just verify that what some minister or rabbi or pastor is saying is actually correct and not just their opinion. So, some people wonder if they actually should adhere to the tenets of a religion beyond “treating others well” and having compassion towards people who are struggling.

    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    Nobody has the answer sheet you are looking for. It is for the seeker to seek. 

    • #49
  20. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    I suppose it depends on the person.

    But let’s say some Jewish Rabbi tells you that you should avoid consuming shellfish. You could just say, “Ok. I will avoid consuming shellfish.”

    But one could also wonder, “Why would God care if I consume shellfish?” At somepoint, one might question the underlying theology behind the command “Don’t eat shellfish.”

    We Americans tend to approach religion with our background of atomized individualism, and think of religion as a smorgasbord of options open to the curious individual, from which he may pick or choose as his wont.

    But this may misunderstand the great historic religions. God, for instance, is not asking you to avoid consuming shellfish. You are not a Jew. God made a covenant with a specific tribe of people (the Hebrews) thousands of years ago, that included a long list of religious laws. The history of the Jews is the story of that covenant and the dynamic relationship between God and his chosen people. To be born a Jew is to be born into that story (whether you like it or not). Even if a man born Jewish rejects his religion, he is still a Jew and that long religious story will always be part of his identity.  To understand the meaning of “Don’t eat shellfish”, we must do more than analyze it as an abstract command of a  hypothetical God, judged before the court of the atomized individual’s intellect.  It can only be understood in the context of the long history of Israel and what that tells us about the meaning of God’s covenant with Israel.

    • #50
  21. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    In Dante’s Inferno, the majority of damned souls aren’t even in Hell proper, but in the vestibule of Hell, condemned to chase through the mist a flag receding in the distance, while being stung by hornets to goad them along. These are the people who chose to sit out the great questions of life.

    There are some people who devoted entire decades of their lives to studying the Bible in its original languages and also studying church history in depth and then concluding that their religious beliefs might not be correct after all.

    That’s not a case of sitting out the great questions of life. It’s a case of asking the questions and realizing that there are multitude of possible answers that need exploring, possibly outside of a particular religious sect.

    I never said it was. Nonetheless, there are many people who do in fact sit out the great questions of life.

    • #51
  22. JoshuaFinch Coolidge
    JoshuaFinch
    @JoshuaFinch

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    That’s my take. I don’t think it means they can’t handle the discipline of a religion, not necessarily.

    I think you’re giving far too much credit to people who call themselves “spiritual.” You may give a lot of thought to these concerns, but I don’t think most people bother. If they can feel good after seeing a beautiful sunset or palm trees waving in the breeze, that’s plenty for them. They may not even give a lot of thought to the concept of G-d; they figure they see G-d in those things of beauty and that’s enough. Why trouble themselves with all the rest of that stuff?

    I suppose it depends on the person.

    But let’s say some Jewish Rabbi tells you that you should avoid consuming shellfish. You could just say, “Ok. I will avoid consuming shellfish.”

    But one could also wonder, “Why would God care if I consume shellfish?” At somepoint, one might question the underlying theology behind the command “Don’t eat shellfish.”

    I personally don’t eat shellfish very often because I want to keep my cholesterol low. But that’s not usually what religions are about. It isn’t about You. It’s about God.

    That begs the question: What does God want? Different people have different answers. At some point one might think, “I think my understanding is about as good as that pastor who preached in church last Sunday.”

    I certainly felt this way when I listened to a church service where the pastor used college basketball as an analogy for his sermon. I realized that this guy was just a guy. He had no special insight into the Maker Of The Universe.

    Once someone reaches that conclusion, it’s hard to get them to adhere to a list of do’s and don’ts because some religious sect says so.

    Someone came to a rabbi and said, “Rabbi I have lost my faith.”

    The rabbi then asked his visitor, “Have you studied the Torah (first five books of the Bible)?”

    “Some of it,” was the answer.

    “Have you studied the rest of the Bible? the Prophets? the Writings?”

    “A little.”

    “How about the Talmud. Have you delved into it?”

    “Barely.”

    “After you have studied all that, come back and we can have a discussion about your faith,” the rabbi concluded.

     

     

    • #52
  23. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    We Americans tend to approach religion with our background of atomized individualism, and think of religion as a smorgasbord of options open to the curious individual, from which he may pick or choose as his wont.

    But this may misunderstand the great historic religions. God, for instance, is not asking you to avoid consuming shellfish. You are not a Jew. God made a covenant with a specific tribe of people (the Hebrews) thousands of years ago, that included a long list of religious laws. The history of the Jews is the story of that covenant and the dynamic relationship between God and his chosen people. To be born a Jew is to be born into that story (whether you like it or not). Even if a man born Jewish rejects his religion, he is still a Jew and that long religious story will always be part of his identity.  To understand the meaning of “Don’t eat shellfish”, we must do more than analyze it as an abstract command of a  hypothetical God, judged before the court of the atomized individual’s intellect.  It can only be understood in the context of the long history of Israel and what that tells us about the meaning of God’s covenant with Israel.

    Beautifully said, JClimacus. As a Jew, I don’t need a logical reason for not eating shellfish. Some laws are explained to Jews, some are not. But I accept the prohibition on shellfish, because it allows me to demonstrate my love and commitment to G-d.

    A person could say, why should I love my spouse? After all, there’s no rule or requirement. But we can choose to love our spouse and dedicate ourselves to that person because it demonstrates our love and commitment to that person, and to the morality of marriage.

    • #53
  24. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I realized that this guy was just a guy.  He had no special insight into the Maker Of The Universe. Once someone reaches that conclusion, it’s hard to get them to adhere to a list of do’s and don’ts because some religious sect says so.

    The question of authority seems to block many people from religion. But we Catholics hold firm to the authority of the Church, created by God Himself, Jesus Christ. He also gave us the office of pope to safeguard the faith. One chooses to worship and glorify God and one chooses to adhere to the tenets of faith. Choose wisely.

    • #54
  25. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    We Americans tend to approach religion with our background of atomized individualism, and think of religion as a smorgasbord of options open to the curious individual, from which he may pick or choose as his wont.

    But this may misunderstand the great historic religions. God, for instance, is not asking you to avoid consuming shellfish. You are not a Jew. God made a covenant with a specific tribe of people (the Hebrews) thousands of years ago, that included a long list of religious laws. The history of the Jews is the story of that covenant and the dynamic relationship between God and his chosen people. To be born a Jew is to be born into that story (whether you like it or not). Even if a man born Jewish rejects his religion, he is still a Jew and that long religious story will always be part of his identity. To understand the meaning of “Don’t eat shellfish”, we must do more than analyze it as an abstract command of a hypothetical God, judged before the court of the atomized individual’s intellect. It can only be understood in the context of the long history of Israel and what that tells us about the meaning of God’s covenant with Israel.

    Beautifully said, JClimacus. As a Jew, I don’t need a logical reason for not eating shellfish. Some laws are explained to Jews, some are not. But I accept the prohibition on shellfish, because it allows me to demonstrate my love and commitment to G-d.

    A person could say, why should I love my spouse? After all, there’s no rule or requirement. But we can choose to love our spouse and dedicate ourselves to that person because it demonstrates our love and commitment to that person, and to the morality of marriage.

    Susan,

    I think the issue of eating or not eating shellfish and the issue of loving or not loving one’s spouse are two different types of questions.

    As has been mentioned, if one isn’t Jewish, it isn’t clear that one is commanded to abstain from eating shellfish.  But even if one isn’t Jewish, loving one’s spouse seems like, at the very least, enlightened self-interest.  If you don’t love your spouse, you will likely end up in either an unhappy marriage or in divorce court, perhaps sad and lonely at the end of it.

    I do understand that people want to follow a “rule book” and that even non-religious people (spiritual, but not religious people) want to follow a “rule book” also.  Perhaps the “spiritual, but not religious person adheres to the command, “Thou must recycle!” and “Thou must plant a tree!” and “Thou must fly the rainbow flag!”

    As mentioned, we have so many religious options these days that people didn’t have centuries ago.  It’s not clear that the person living in the 12th century could really choose between Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism.

    These days, as Billy Joel sang in the song, “Don’t Ask Me Why,”

    “All your choices made you change your mind.”

    • #55
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I realized that this guy was just a guy. He had no special insight into the Maker Of The Universe. Once someone reaches that conclusion, it’s hard to get them to adhere to a list of do’s and don’ts because some religious sect says so.

    The question of authority seems to block many people from religion. But we Catholics hold firm to the authority of the Church, created by God Himself, Jesus Christ. He also gave us the office of pope to safeguard the faith. One chooses to worship and glorify God and one chooses to adhere to the tenets of faith. Choose wisely.

    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    If one really believes that the Catholic church is the One True Church, or at least among the true churches, then, of course, being part of the Catholic church makes perfect sense.

    What I am getting at is that there are lots of people who have studied the Bible intensely, for decades, attended Theological Seminary, became a pastor at a church but then realized that they didn’t think they really had much actual knowledge of God and how God interacts with his creation.

    Someone could attend a church even while harboring serious doubts about the underlying beliefs taught at the church.  But those who do this usually do this for reasons such as, “I like the people I meet at church” or “I enjoy singing in the choir” or “I want to be with my wife when she goes to church.”

    For some people, religious conviction is hard to fake.  Some people prefer just being honest with at least themselves and saying, “I’m not sure,” even as they continue to listen to various viewpoints concerning religion.

    • #56
  27. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    As has been mentioned, if one isn’t Jewish, it isn’t clear that one is commanded to abstain from eating shellfish.  But even if one isn’t Jewish, loving one’s spouse seems like, at the very least, enlightened self-interest

    It is clear: only Jews are told to abstain from certain foods. Period. The commandment to not eat certain foods is similar to the expectation that we will love our G-d. We are called to love Him. Explicitly. When we love G-d, there is also a level of self-interest. Not only are we in service to Him, but we benefit from the relationship, too. It is reciprocal.

    • #57
  28. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    What I am getting at is that there are lots of people who have studied the Bible intensely, for decades, attended Theological Seminary, became a pastor at a church but then realized that they didn’t think they really had much actual knowledge of God and how God interacts with his creation.

    Someone could attend a church even while harboring serious doubts about the underlying beliefs taught at the church.  But those who do this usually do this for reasons such as, “I like the people I meet at church” or “I enjoy singing in the choir” or “I want to be with my wife when she goes to church.”

    As Blessed John Henry Newman said, “ten thousand difficulties should not make one doubt”. The person with a difficulty says, “How can that be so?” whereas a person who doubts says, “That can’t be so!”

    St. Augustine also has some wisdom on this:

    Augustine envisions human life as a journey of faith. In its ideal form, human life is a journey beginning in faith (fides) and ending in that fully completed state that Augustine calls wisdom (sapientia). In Augustine’s view, the starting point, faith, and the ultimate telos, wisdom, serve as the ideal alpha and omega stages of Christian discipleship. In a classical formulation of this essential component of his philosophy, Augustine remarks, ‘Faith seeks, understanding finds; whence the prophet says, “Unless ye believe, ye shall not understand.”‘

    Our life here on earth is to know, love, and serve God in this life so that we can be with Him in the next life. I think a “spiritual but not religious” person is all about himself – what am I getting – rather than giving anything to God. Religion is all about glorifying and worshiping God.

    • #58
  29. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    St. Augustine also has some wisdom on this:

    Augustine envisions human life as a journey of faith. In its ideal form, human life is a journey beginning in faith (fides) and ending in that fully completed state that Augustine calls wisdom (sapientia). In Augustine’s view, the starting point, faith, and the ultimate telos, wisdom, serve as the ideal alpha and omega stages of Christian discipleship. In a classical formulation of this essential component of his philosophy, Augustine remarks, ‘Faith seeks, understanding finds; whence the prophet says, “Unless ye believe, ye shall not understand.”‘

    Our life here on earth is to know, love, and serve God in this life so that we can be with Him in the next life. I think a “spiritual but not religious” person is all about himself – what am I getting – rather than giving anything to God. Religion is all about glorifying and worshiping God.

    Augustine had an unfair advantage. A lot of us say “my mother was a saint.” Augie’s mom really was.

    • #59
  30. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    As has been mentioned, if one isn’t Jewish, it isn’t clear that one is commanded to abstain from eating shellfish. But even if one isn’t Jewish, loving one’s spouse seems like, at the very least, enlightened self-interest

    It is clear: only Jews are told to abstain from certain foods. Period. The commandment to not eat certain foods is similar to the expectation that we will love our G-d. We are called to love Him. Explicitly. When we love G-d, there is also a level of self-interest. Not only are we in service to Him, but we benefit from the relationship, too. It is reciprocal.

    But you have already reached the conclusion to abstain from eating certain foods because this behavior represents a way of honoring God.

    If you were not convinced of this, then you would not view eating seafood as an act of disobedience towards God.

    The non-religious person doesn’t necessarily see herself as disobeying God, but rather might see himself and considering the various ideas about God.

    For example, take the issue of divorce.  Some Christians believe that one should only divorce a spouse in a case of sexual infidelity.  But if someone isn’t convinced that God actually holds this view, then this might influence how someone might deal with a situation where a spouse is gambling away all of the family earnings at the casino.

    The person might try to get the spouse to stop gambling.  But if those efforts fail, rather than see their children become penniless due to their spouse’s gambling addiction, that person might seek a divorce, even if some Christians would accuse this person of being “Un-Godly” for seeking a divorce under these circumstances.

    This person who seeks the divorce doesn’t necessarily see themself as “anti-God” for seeking a divorce, only anti a particular theological position and a particular conception of God.

    The “spiritual but not religious” person might think that those who say, “God said it.  I believe it.  That settles it” are too confident in their beliefs about God and perhaps even wrong about God.

    • #60
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