Plastic Recycling Is a Dead-End Street

 

Many cities have mandated recycling. Recycling doesn’t save money, it costs money. If it saved money, a mandate wouldn’t be necessary. The recycled material is sold on the market, but certainly income from such sales doesn’t cover expenses. The reason for recycling is about “saving the planet.” Probably most of those cities mandating recycling include plastics.

Remember hearing in the news a few years ago that China, which recycled most of the world’s plastic, wasn’t going to do it anymore? What is happening to all that garbage material collected? It turns out that plastics can’t be recycled, at least in a manner that makes any sense, economic or otherwise. We would be better off landfilling or incinerating it. What earth-hating environment-raping nutjob is spewing this nonsense?

You’ll never guess. Greenpeace.

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  1. carcat74 Member
    carcat74
    @carcat74

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Al French:

    Many cities have mandated recycling. Recycling doesn’t save money, it costs money. If it saved money a mandate wouldn’t be necessary. The recycled material is sold on the market, but certainly income from such sales doesn’t cover expenses. The reason for recycling is about “saving the planet”. Probably most of those cities mandating recycling include plastics.

    Remember hearing in the news a few years ago that China, which recycled most of the world’s plastic wasn’t going to do it any more? What is happening to all that garbage material collected? It turns out that plastics can’t be recycled, at least in a manner that makes any sense, economic or otherwise. We would be better off landfilling or incinerating it. What earth-hating environment-raping nutjob is spewing this nonsense?

    You’ll never guess. Greenpeace.

     

    They also recommend an international treaty that would have us using more glass and less plastic, to pick just one item I read at random in that paper.

    Returnable soda and beer bottles, anyone?

    • #91
  2. carcat74 Member
    carcat74
    @carcat74

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    And it destroys small engines. Especially ones that are more occasionally used.

    That’s why we only use 91 octane in our mowers, chainsaws, weedeaters, and UTV,  NO ETHANOL!

    • #92
  3. carcat74 Member
    carcat74
    @carcat74

    MiMac (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    Now instead of figuring out how to power cars with alcohol instead of fossil fuel, they need to figure out how to make alcohol without using fossil fuel.

    Hah!

    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation. I had an on line debate with some green who wanted to go all EV and ban coal mining. I pointed out we would have to increase lithium & cobalt mining by about 500% and it is isn’t clean by anyone’s definition (I will leave out all the other problems with a 100% EV fleet-and I didn’t even bring up graphite requirements)). Additionally, we need metallurgical coal for steel and even the green new deal needs steel. He then tried to claim we could replace met-coal with hydrogen, but we get 96% of our hydrogen from natural gas, oil, & coal.

    So, what did the ‘green’s say to the increase in mining?

    • #93
  4. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

     

     

     

     

    • #94
  5. Southern Pessimist Member
    Southern Pessimist
    @SouthernPessimist

    The only reason I like my town’s recycling system is that it reinforces my sense of moral superiority. No, recycling does not make me feel morally superior but walking by my neighbor’s bin full of empty vodka bottles does.

     

     

     

    • #95
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I haven’t read all of the Greenpeace article yet, but plan to continue to recycle plastic and push for our county and township to provide better recycling services, such as those in Hubbard County MN.   But I never thought it was done to save money.  If Greenpeace has other arguments against it, I might find them persuasive.  Some people have unrealistic ideas about what recycling can do, and I also am interested in learning more about the economics of it. 

    The only township committee I’ve ever considered serving on is the recycling committee.   But the idea of letting a schedule of evening meetings interfere with my bicycle outings and other travel has kept my mouth shut about it.  I guess that shows you how faithful I am to the cause. 

     

    • #96
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Wanting to save certain stands of trees in certain places can have merit. For example, federal safety people provide incentives to local road jurisdictions to cut down trees along rural roads for safety reasons, thus doing away with our picturesque rural scenery.  I’m against that kind of use of federal power.  

    Trees that are made into paper products can have undesirable effects on rivers and streams that are downstream from paper plants (of which we used to have a lot here in SW Michigan) but I’m not up-to-date on the state of that technology. I don’t think the pollution effect is nearly as bad as it used to be. 

    • #97
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    carcat74 (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    Now instead of figuring out how to power cars with alcohol instead of fossil fuel, they need to figure out how to make alcohol without using fossil fuel.

    Hah!

    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation. I had an on line debate with some green who wanted to go all EV and ban coal mining. I pointed out we would have to increase lithium & cobalt mining by about 500% and it is isn’t clean by anyone’s definition (I will leave out all the other problems with a 100% EV fleet-and I didn’t even bring up graphite requirements)). Additionally, we need metallurgical coal for steel and even the green new deal needs steel. He then tried to claim we could replace met-coal with hydrogen, but we get 96% of our hydrogen from natural gas, oil, & coal.

    So, what did the ‘green’s say to the increase in mining?

    Mostly they don’t seem to care as long as it happens in other countries, maybe with child and/or slave labor.

     

    • #98
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    The Scarecrow (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill. They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before the world went to trees. There some urban legend about Hearst forcing this because he owned forest land at the time. Any plant with strong long fibers can be used for paper production. Some of those products grow faster and cheaper than trees. Coming from Indiana / Kentucky I always wondered about using corn stalks. But I doubt this can be rethought now since everything is based on existing industries and legal frameworks.

    Hey FJJG, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff.

    Is there a way to recycle plastic, but in a different way, using it’s supposed detriments as a strength?

    Since it doesn’t biodegrade, maybe it could be used as a building material. Could you say, dump plastic bottles into compactor, a serious compactor which would crush them into a solid mass? Keep adding bottles and crushing until you had a solid brick of hard, non-biodegradable material.

    Now you might be able to cut that stuff up into shapes to maybe build foundations, or maybe even engineered walls or something?

    Im not a chemist, just spitballing here.

    I think they’re already using them to create park benches and planking for decks, stuff like that.

    I believe some of it is called “deck wood.”

     

    • #99
  10. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    carcat74 (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    Now instead of figuring out how to power cars with alcohol instead of fossil fuel, they need to figure out how to make alcohol without using fossil fuel.

    Hah!

    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation. I had an on line debate with some green who wanted to go all EV and ban coal mining. I pointed out we would have to increase lithium & cobalt mining by about 500% and it is isn’t clean by anyone’s definition (I will leave out all the other problems with a 100% EV fleet-and I didn’t even bring up graphite requirements)). Additionally, we need metallurgical coal for steel and even the green new deal needs steel. He then tried to claim we could replace met-coal with hydrogen, but we get 96% of our hydrogen from natural gas, oil, & coal.

    So, what did the ‘green’s say to the increase in mining?

    Cricket’s chirping….

    • #100
  11. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

     

     

     

     

    Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares  (maker of Fiat Chrysler & Peugeot):

    “What is clear is that electrification is a technology chosen by politicians, not by industry,…….an electric car needs to drive 70,000 kilometres to compensate for the carbon footprint of manufacturing the battery”

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/tavares-says-europes-ev-drive-comes-risks

    of course during those 70K km the energy to generate the electricity frequently comes from coal & natural gas…..

    • #101
  12. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Southern Pessimist (View Comment):

    The only reason I like my town’s recycling system is that it reinforces my sense of moral superiority. No, recycling does not make me feel morally superior but walking by my neighbor’s bin full of empty vodka bottles does.

     

     

     

    Maybe your neighbor needs the vodka b/c he actually understands the green new deal-like the old Russian joke:

    Q: What is a communist?

    A:Someone who read the works of Marx & Engels.

    Q: What is a capitalist?

    A:Someone who read & understood the works of Marx & Engles.

    • #102
  13. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    JosePluma, Local Man of Mystery (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Speaking of plastic, why is that nobody has ever released a photograph of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch? Because it is a hoax!

    It’s not a hoax, plastic does accumulate there. The plastic just doesn’t accumulate photogenically on the surface. The action of solar radiation and ocean turbulence cause it to break down into tiny particles that float below w the surface.

    The vast majority of the plastic in the GPGP is chinese-made commercial fishing equipment.

    Even the Ocean Cleanup’s own videos demonstrate this, though they are quick to pontificate that just because the equipment is made in china it doesn’t necessary mean that american fishermen couldn’t have been responsible for dumping it in the ocean, which is such a crock when looking at the size of asian commercial fishing fleets compared to american ones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@theoceancleanup/videos

    • #103
  14. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    James Salerno (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    I always felt recycled toilet paper is crappy.

    I never had a problem with the cheapest toilet paper, but my beloved forbids it.  She is adamant that “it’s different for girls”.

    • #104
  15. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    MiMac (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    Now instead of figuring out how to power cars with alcohol instead of fossil fuel, they need to figure out how to make alcohol without using fossil fuel.

    Hah!

    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation. I had an on line debate with some green who wanted to go all EV and ban coal mining. I pointed out we would have to increase lithium & cobalt mining by about 500% and it is isn’t clean by anyone’s definition (I will leave out all the other problems with a 100% EV fleet-and I didn’t even bring up graphite requirements)). Additionally, we need metallurgical coal for steel and even the green new deal needs steel. He then tried to claim we could replace met-coal with hydrogen, but we get 96% of our hydrogen from natural gas, oil, & coal.

    Hydrogen from nuclear-powered electrolysis would be cool with me.

    • #105
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    My next NR column is about this very subject, and the fact that the faithful will continue to recycle plastic despite the authoritative word of bloody GREENPEACE. They’ll make the Japanese soldiers who hid in the jungle for years after the war look like faithless quitters.

    I think the ethanol in gas guys will be keeping them company. Even Al Gore now admits that it costs more in fossil fuel than it saves. It has just become a political payoff.

    Now instead of figuring out how to power cars with alcohol instead of fossil fuel, they need to figure out how to make alcohol without using fossil fuel.

    Hah!

    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation. I had an on line debate with some green who wanted to go all EV and ban coal mining. I pointed out we would have to increase lithium & cobalt mining by about 500% and it is isn’t clean by anyone’s definition (I will leave out all the other problems with a 100% EV fleet-and I didn’t even bring up graphite requirements)). Additionally, we need metallurgical coal for steel and even the green new deal needs steel. He then tried to claim we could replace met-coal with hydrogen, but we get 96% of our hydrogen from natural gas, oil, & coal.

    Hydrogen from nuclear-powered electrolysis would be cool with me.

    Using something like hydrogen to store energy is like the water-pump-up storage system.  Increasing the capacity/duration only means adding more water or hydrogen storage facility.  It doesn’t all have to be more battery construction, with all the toxic metals etc.

    • #106
  17. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    The Scarecrow (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill. They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before the world went to trees. There some urban legend about Hearst forcing this because he owned forest land at the time. Any plant with strong long fibers can be used for paper production. Some of those products grow faster and cheaper than trees. Coming from Indiana / Kentucky I always wondered about using corn stalks. But I doubt this can be rethought now since everything is based on existing industries and legal frameworks.

    Hey FJJG, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff.

    Is there a way to recycle plastic, but in a different way, using it’s supposed detriments as a strength?

    Since it doesn’t biodegrade, maybe it could be used as a building material. Could you say, dump plastic bottles into compactor, a serious compactor which would crush them into a solid mass? Keep adding bottles and crushing until you had a solid brick of hard, non-biodegradable material.

    Now you might be able to cut that stuff up into shapes to maybe build foundations, or maybe even engineered walls or something?

    Im not a chemist, just spitballing here.

    I am a bit out of it now and was into paper recycling and not plastics.   Plastics are a bit tougher in that if I remember correctly there are about 7 major type of plastics .  The first thing is labor intensive in that to recycle you need to separate.  (They do this with magnets, spins and melting and pouring with metals)   This is very labor intensive with plastics and breaks the economic models.  Which is why this was sent overseas for labor costs.  We never could get it to work well in US.  Second is that all this recycling requires lots, and I mean a lot of cheap energy.  Which is not on the government play book.  Our whole profit matrix would be whiped out by small increases in energy processes.  Then it requires some fairly caustic chemicals that most places in the US will not tolerate anymore.  (again overseas).  After that it can be done at a small level.  One of my customers was a group in KY that was working on a method that seemed to work to some degree but they never did get the money part figured out.  As I said I am in IT and fairly good at my job.  It is unusual to find IT guys at my level that enjoyed working of manufacturing floor and processes so I got lent out a bit so know a bit about their operation.  Did I mention the Sopranos aspect?  Part of my charm seemed to be skill and a tendency not to ask awkward questions or talk out of school at all.

    • #107
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    This is a really interesting discussion.

    • #108
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    The Scarecrow (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill. They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before…

    Hey FJJG, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff.

    Is there a way to recycle plastic, but in a different way, using it’s supposed detriments as a strength?

    Since it doesn’t biodegrade, maybe it could be used as a building material. Could you say, dump plastic bottles into compactor, a serious compactor which would crush them into a solid mass? Keep adding bottles and crushing until you had a solid brick of hard, non-biodegradable material.

    Now you might be able to cut that stuff up into shapes to maybe build foundations, or maybe even engineered walls or something?

    Im not a chemist, just spitballing here.

    I am a bit out of it now and was into paper recycling and not plastics. Plastics are a bit tougher in that if I remember correctly there are about 7 major type of plastics . The first thing is labor intensive in that to recycle you need to separate. (They do this with magnets, spins and melting and pouring with metals) This is very labor intensive with plastics and breaks the economic models. Which is why this was sent overseas for labor costs. We never could get it to work well in US. Second is that all this recycling requires lots, and I mean a lot of cheap energy. Which is not on the government play book. Our whole profit matrix would be whiped out by small increases in energy processes. Then it requires some fairly caustic chemicals that most places in the US will not tolerate anymore. (again overseas). After that it can be done at a small level. One of my customers was a group in KY that was working on a method that seemed to work to some degree but they never did get the money part figured out. As I said I am in IT and fairly good at my job. It is unusual to find IT guys at my level that enjoyed working of manufacturing floor and processes so I got lent out a bit so know a bit about their operation. Did I mention the Sopranos aspect? Part of my charm seemed to be skill and a tendency not to ask awkward questions or talk out of school at all.

    I didn’t necessarily know much detail about the specific manufacturing processes at the places I worked, most of what I describe in the 7,000 Twitter Employees thread came from just observing how the different departments and people interacted with the computer systems, and making adjustments to suit what they actually did.  Rather than following some “guidelines” set by people who had less of a clue than me.

    • #109
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