Plastic Recycling Is a Dead-End Street

 

Many cities have mandated recycling. Recycling doesn’t save money, it costs money. If it saved money, a mandate wouldn’t be necessary. The recycled material is sold on the market, but certainly income from such sales doesn’t cover expenses. The reason for recycling is about “saving the planet.” Probably most of those cities mandating recycling include plastics.

Remember hearing in the news a few years ago that China, which recycled most of the world’s plastic, wasn’t going to do it anymore? What is happening to all that garbage material collected? It turns out that plastics can’t be recycled, at least in a manner that makes any sense, economic or otherwise. We would be better off landfilling or incinerating it. What earth-hating environment-raping nutjob is spewing this nonsense?

You’ll never guess. Greenpeace.

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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    MiMac (View Comment):
    At least you can make alcohol from plants via fermentation.

    And crops are planted and harvested and delivered, etc, using… fossil fuel!

    Oh, and ethanol is delivered to “Gas” stations using… fossil fuel!

     

    • #61
  2. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Columbo (View Comment):

    And I always wondered how all of those plastic water bottles ended up in the sea!! It’s because of all of the evil recyclers who are sending the plastic to China to dump in the sea!

    We really shouldn’t trust China with anything.

    • #62
  3. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    All to create a product that in almost every way is inferior to virgin created product.

    This is what is so frustrating. I’d be open to embracing the recycling ethos, even at some additional cost, if the end products were actually useful, or better, or innovative, or whatever.

    That is my issue with stuff like recycling or green energy.  I am too curious and too experienced.  As an IT guy it is not unusual for me to get contracts in many industries and thus get to know them fairly well.  In the case of green energy and recycling, especially recycling I just do not see how to make the number add up.  About the only recycling that has any use is metal and even there the amount of issue still make going virgin materials much better.  

    • #63
  4. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    Tissue pulp to make tissue paper was one of the products the company I worked for made.  Frankly knowing what went into it and what is still in it I am not sure I want to wipe my butt with it.  

    • #64
  5. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    All to create a product that in almost every way is inferior to virgin created product.

    This is what is so frustrating. I’d be open to embracing the recycling ethos, even at some additional cost, if the end products were actually useful, or better, or innovative, or whatever.

    Use it to make packing material, instead of boxes. Packing material doesn’t need to be as durable.

    True, to some degree.  It has to hold shape and form or it becomes less useful.  Mostly that is what we made,  Pulp for tissue and packing material stuff.  Packing material is actually a more advanced product than tissue paper.  Has to do with the length of the fibers.  Each time through the process the fibers break down and become shorter, weaker and less apt to hold together.  Recycled paper for packaging tends to be very dusty and cause issues because of it.  Also since it is softer it tends to be a magnet to bugs.  So you have to pack and spray to keep the bugs out or they take up home quickly.  Causes warehouse issues.  Ever open a package and feel like you immediately need to sneeze and wash up.  That is recycled packing material.  

    • #65
  6. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    James Salerno (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    I always felt recycled toilet paper is crappy.

    Only when it your fingers break through during the wipe.  You get that with smaller fibers.  

    • #66
  7. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    I have a vague memory from the late 1970s/early 80s when municipalities were being propositioned to implement recycling that the environmental activists pushing it argued that although it was only cost-effective to recycle metal (and then only certain kinds), that glass, plastics and paper should be too, because if there was enough available then the market would figure out a way to make it cost effective. Are we surprised that never happened?

    Early stage magical thinking by greenies.

    Made a bunch of money of that stuff.   Then they lost interest and so did the government and most of it either closed down or offshored.  Most of the offshore stuff was BS with stuff being sent out at top dollar only to be dumped on the way to wherever.   

    • #67
  8. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    So what happens to all the stuff thrown in the recycling bin?

    In Cleveland the city government discontinued its recycling trash program and didn’t tell anybody. Thus, when you sorted through all your garbage and put the recyclables into special blue cans, the garbage men picked them up and threw them into the trucks with all the other garbage headed for the landfills. They managed to get away with this scam for about four or five months before citizens and the local paper caught-on. Mayor Jackson did not apologize for the ruse, instead making some sort of excuse. He then urged Cleveland residents to continue sorting their trash so that they would continue to be “in the habit” in case the city were to ever start recycling again!

    There is a lot of corruption around the whole waste and recycling process.  Think Tony Soprano stuff.  

    • #68
  9. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Keeping the plastics out of the oceans. Most plastic in the oceans comes from Asia and South America (anyone remember the garbage in the harbor of Rio De Janiero). None of those places recycles anything , do they? More suckers, we.

    My brother is in South Sudan for a few weeks.  He said one of the surprises seeing the Nile was the “millions of plastic bottles floating downstream”.

     

     

    • #69
  10. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Back in the 90s and 00s I worked in paper recycling.  It was known then that the entire industry was mostly a scam.  The amount of energy and cost to recycle were prohibitive and would only work with government support and forced legal restrictions.  The recycle paper mills only existed because under Clinton the government and whoever they could force had to buy paper with a certain percentage of recycle.

    What changed?

    When I was in Boy Scouts in the mid 1970s, SOMEBODY was paying us cash money by the ton for paper we collected in paper drives.  It was a significant fundraiser for our troop.  And that was a long time before Clinton.

    • #70
  11. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Have you never hugged a tree? I’m told it’s very comforting.

    I’ve never hugged a tree, but I have a given a few of them a reassuring pat on the shoulder.

    • #71
  12. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    Isn’t the meeting in May?

     

    • #72
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Keeping the plastics out of the oceans. Most plastic in the oceans comes from Asia and South America (anyone remember the garbage in the harbor of Rio De Janiero). None of those places recycles anything , do they? More suckers, we.

    My brother is in South Sudan for a few weeks. He said one of the surprises seeing the Nile was the “millions of plastic bottles floating downstream”.

     

     

    I doubt any of those came from the US.

    But they can always blame Israel.

    • #73
  14. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I doubt any of those came from the US.

    So does that mean it’s not a problem?

     

    • #74
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I doubt any of those came from the US.

    So does that mean it’s not a problem?

     

    No, but it means it’s not OUR problem, and that the greenies are fighting in the wrong parts of the world.

    • #75
  16. tigerlily Member
    tigerlily
    @tigerlily

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Have you never hugged a tree? I’m told it’s very comforting.

    I’ve never hugged a tree, but I have a given a few of them a reassuring pat on the shoulder.

    Did you ever carve your initials in a tree?

    • #76
  17. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    Isn’t the meeting in May?

     

    No, they have their meeting in January, in downtown Bellevue. They start at 4:00PM so it is easy for me to attend. 

    • #77
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    I think it has become abundantly clear that the “business model” for government programs is:

    1. Come up with a believable virtuous cause, to
    2. Drain the treasury, and
    3. Pocket a percentage, oh and
    4. As a side effect, make things worse.

    The MAGA platform should include an audit of all government programs with virtuous intent.

    100% 

    One thing I would add to this is, some on the left think that if they dream something up and then force everybody into it, they think that is an actual “public good”. So you can explain to them how this is traditionally thought of, and then they think well if we think it’s good and then we force everybody into it that is also a public good. It’s just endless until the government and society runs out of money.

     

    • #78
  19. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    The recycle paper mills only existed because under Clinton the government and whoever they could force had to buy paper with a certain percentage of recycle. 

    The keyword that explains most things that go awry.

    • #79
  20. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    In my city we also have curbside composting pick-up.

    In theory this should be the most profitable of the “waste diversion” programs, because the composting can be done locally and the product can be sold locally.

    Instead, the city pays a company to do the composting, and the company then gets to sell the product.

    So, it’s incredibly profitable for the company, but not so much for the city.

    That is insane. Unbelievable.

    I don’t know how it’s working out right now, but they were trying to do this in a college city in eastern Iowa and they had one hell of a time controlling the smells of the truck and the plant. You would think it would be viable in some way because it appears to be kind of simple but it probably isn’t.

    • #80
  21. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    So what happens to all the stuff thrown in the recycling bin?

    In Cleveland the city government discontinued its recycling trash program and didn’t tell anybody. Thus, when you sorted through all your garbage and put the recyclables into special blue cans, the garbage men picked them up and threw them into the trucks with all the other garbage headed for the landfills. They managed to get away with this scam for about four or five months before citizens and the local paper caught-on. Mayor Jackson did not apologize for the ruse, instead making some sort of excuse. He then urged Cleveland residents to continue sorting their trash so that they would continue to be “in the habit” in case the city were to ever start recycling again!

    This is just perfect. lol 

    I love this discussion so much. 

    • #81
  22. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):

    And I always wondered how all of those plastic water bottles ended up in the sea!! It’s because of all of the evil recyclers who are sending the plastic to China to dump in the sea!

    We really shouldn’t trust China with anything.

    I am so glad the tide has turned on this nonsense. They are mafia that want to screw their own people and the whole planet. 

    Dennis Prager had a really good guest about this yesterday. The lack of foresight by the West’s ruling class is a disaster.

     

    • #82
  23. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    I have a vague memory from the late 1970s/early 80s when municipalities were being propositioned to implement recycling that the environmental activists pushing it argued that although it was only cost-effective to recycle metal (and then only certain kinds), that glass, plastics and paper should be too, because if there was enough available then the market would figure out a way to make it cost effective. Are we surprised that never happened?

    Early stage magical thinking by greenies.

    Made a bunch of money of that stuff. Then they lost interest and so did the government and most of it either closed down or offshored. Most of the offshore stuff was BS with stuff being sent out at top dollar only to be dumped on the way to wherever.

    Of course. 

    • #83
  24. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Every year, when I attend the Costco annual shareholder meeting, one or more of those allowed to speak is a “green” group demanding that Costco sell only recycled toilet paper in their stores. ONLY recycled, no others. Costco is known for being run by a bunch of Lefties, and a goodly portion of the food they sell is “organic”, but their management has always rejected the demand for recycled toilet paper. They are fully aware that the existing product is much more expensive that what they stock, and of vastly inferior quality. And they also know that their customers would simply not buy recycled toilet paper. Yet the green groups never give up, and give the same spiels every year. Given this year’s inflation rate, I will be looking forward to hearing their demands in January when I attend the meeting.

    Isn’t the meeting in May?

     

    No, they have their meeting in January, in downtown Bellevue. They start at 4:00PM so it is easy for me to attend.

    Oh yeah.  For some reason I brain farted and conflated it with Berkshire Hathaway. 

    • #84
  25. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Keeping the plastics out of the oceans. Most plastic in the oceans comes from Asia and South America (anyone remember the garbage in the harbor of Rio De Janiero). None of those places recycles anything , do they? More suckers, we.

    My brother is in South Sudan for a few weeks. He said one of the surprises seeing the Nile was the “millions of plastic bottles floating downstream”.

     

     

    The Tierney article cited earlier, on ocean plastics:

    2017 study in Nature Communicationsestimated, 86 percent comes from Asia and virtually all the rest from Africa and South America

    • #85
  26. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill.  They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before the world went to trees.   There some urban legend about Hearst forcing this because he owned forest land at the time.  Any plant with strong long fibers can be used for paper production.   Some of those products grow faster and cheaper than trees.  Coming from Indiana / Kentucky I always wondered about using corn stalks.  But I doubt this can be rethought now since everything is based on existing industries and legal frameworks.  

    • #86
  27. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Back in the 90s and 00s I worked in paper recycling. It was known then that the entire industry was mostly a scam. The amount of energy and cost to recycle were prohibitive and would only work with government support and forced legal restrictions. The recycle paper mills only existed because under Clinton the government and whoever they could force had to buy paper with a certain percentage of recycle.

    What changed?

    When I was in Boy Scouts in the mid 1970s, SOMEBODY was paying us cash money by the ton for paper we collected in paper drives. It was a significant fundraiser for our troop. And that was a long time before Clinton.

    The people that want that have the government create / support the processes through laws and regulations and grants and who knows what else.  These programs come and go like all social stuff.  Mostly what stops this is political aims.  

    • #87
  28. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Government Is How We Steal From Each Other™

    • #88
  29. The Scarecrow Thatcher
    The Scarecrow
    @TheScarecrow

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill. They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before the world went to trees. There some urban legend about Hearst forcing this because he owned forest land at the time. Any plant with strong long fibers can be used for paper production. Some of those products grow faster and cheaper than trees. Coming from Indiana / Kentucky I always wondered about using corn stalks. But I doubt this can be rethought now since everything is based on existing industries and legal frameworks.

    Hey FJJG, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff. 

    Is there a way to recycle plastic, but in a different way, using it’s supposed detriments as a strength?

    Since it doesn’t biodegrade, maybe it could be used as a building material. Could you say, dump plastic bottles into compactor, a serious compactor which would crush them into a solid mass? Keep adding bottles and crushing until you had a solid brick of hard, non-biodegradable material.

    Now you might be able to cut that stuff up into shapes to maybe build foundations, or maybe even engineered walls or something?

    Im not a chemist, just spitballing here.

    • #89
  30. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    The Scarecrow (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I don’t understand being against lumber industry. Trees are a renewable resource.

    Trees into paper works the mill I worked at has a history as a straw mill. They made paper from straw / hay / hemp before the world went to trees. There some urban legend about Hearst forcing this because he owned forest land at the time. Any plant with strong long fibers can be used for paper production. Some of those products grow faster and cheaper than trees. Coming from Indiana / Kentucky I always wondered about using corn stalks. But I doubt this can be rethought now since everything is based on existing industries and legal frameworks.

    Hey FJJG, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff.

    Is there a way to recycle plastic, but in a different way, using it’s supposed detriments as a strength?

    Since it doesn’t biodegrade, maybe it could be used as a building material. Could you say, dump plastic bottles into compactor, a serious compactor which would crush them into a solid mass? Keep adding bottles and crushing until you had a solid brick of hard, non-biodegradable material.

    Now you might be able to cut that stuff up into shapes to maybe build foundations, or maybe even engineered walls or something?

    Im not a chemist, just spitballing here.

    I think they’re already using them to create park benches and planking for decks, stuff like that.

    • #90
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