Is It Crypto Currency or Klepto Currency?

 

Allegations are being made about FTX, a cryptocurrency investment company that donated $40 million dollars to political campaigns. 92% of these donations went to Democrat candidates.

From a Fox Business News report:

FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried denied speculation on Twitter that he had flown to South America after the cryptocurrency exchange filed for bankruptcy.

When asked whether he had flown to Argentina, as rumors swirled on social media, the former chief executive told Reuters via text message that he was in the Bahamas, where the company is headquartered.

Bankman-Fried, 30, served as the CEO until Friday.

He also denied “secretly” transferring $10 billion of customer funds from FTX to his trading company Alameda research and denied implementing a “backdoor” in FTX’s bookkeeping system.

“We had confusing internal labeling and misread it,” he said of the $10 billion transfer.

Reuters reported, citing two people familiar with the matter, that at least $1 billion of customer funds had disappeared, with records revealing the financial hole.

When asked about the missing funds, Bankman-Fried responded: “???”

In a release, FTX said John J. Ray III had been appointed CEO in his stead.

Also on Saturday, FTX said that it was moving funds into offline storage after reporting “unauthorized transactions.”

Analysts said millions of dollars worth of assets had been withdrawn from the platform.

Allegations are being made that financial aid sent to Ukraine might have been a money laundering scheme involving FTX and some politicians in Congress. Allegations are also being made that FTX accounts were ‘cracked’ and money taken from those accounts ended up in the campaign coffers of Democrat and some Republican candidates.

Allegations are not proof of wrongdoing; an investigation needs to take place.

In my opinion Crypto Currency investing is somewhat sketchy, especially when it involves offshore investment firms and the involvement of politicians that may have received $40 million dollars in campaign contributions.

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  1. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Just a gentle reminder my post concerns FTX in particular, and the risks of investing in general.

    • #61
  2. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    The other thing he said was there is no bitcoin in the vicinity of this exchange, basically. That doesn’t make any sense to me but that’s what he said.

    I haven’t seen it spelled out anywhere explicitly, but any article I’ve read on FTX seems to suggest that it was focused on low-market-cap crypto tokens rather than established cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin.

    It’s sorta kinda like the crypto version of Jordan Belfort selling over-the-counter penny stocks to unsuspecting amateurs who thought they were buying serious publicly-traded stocks.

    Here’s an interesting article from Coinbase on FTX:

    https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/11/17/4-key-takeaways-from-the-ftx-fiasco/

    Thanks for that. I have a limited Internet today so I’m not sure when I’m going to get to see that.

    One of the things I heard this morning from Charles on the fox business channel was, bitcoin is obviously a commodity. If they aren’t set up as a commodity they are a security. It seems silly if it’s not a commodity but what do I know.

    The truth of “bitcoin is a commodity” cannot become obvious to me until you specify which of several distinct commonly used definitions you are using. I have no way of reading your mind. It might be obvious or it might not be.

    I’m only talking about the distinction of how it’s regulated.

    • #62
  3. aardo vozz Member
    aardo vozz
    @aardovozz

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Douglas Pratt (View Comment):

    So, Magic Internet Money turns out to be a scam that benefits Democrats. This is my surprised face.

    I would argue that American currency is also a scam that benefits Democrats.

    Or perhaps I’m being too cynical?

    Too cynical? No. Insufficiently cynical? Probably…🤔

    • #63
  4. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Just a gentle reminder my post concerns FTX in particular, and the risks of investing in general.

    This seems to have become a risk of investing with Americans, as fraud now seems to have become just another business model. Look at all the big money center banks, they’ve all had allegations of fraud, money laundering etc, settled with regulators for millions in fines…. But less than the profits they made from the illegal activities that landed them in trouble.

    I think it would be helpful if we stopped thinking of the FTX Ukraine business as money laundering. It was a kickback scheme. Democrats voted for more aide to Ukraine a portion of that aide was siphoned off, and donated to the democrats (and a few republicans) who vocally supported that aide… Textbook kickback…

    • #64
  5. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Just a gentle reminder my post concerns FTX in particular, and the risks of investing in general.

    This seems to have become a risk of investing with Americans, as fraud now seems to have become just another business model. Look at all the big money center banks, they’ve all had allegations of fraud, money laundering etc, settled with regulators for millions in fines…. But less than the profits they made from the illegal activities that landed them in trouble.

    I think it would be helpful if we stopped thinking of the FTX Ukraine business as money laundering. It was a kickback scheme. Democrats voted for more aide to Ukraine a portion of that aide was siphoned off, and donated to the democrats (and a few republicans) who vocally supported that aide… Textbook kickback…

    Foreign aid is supposed to be about kickbacks. We “give” millions so that they can buy ONLY from American arms makers and other US producers guided by paid American consultants to grease the skids. If it is a really well-designed program, beneficiaries kick back to the people who enacted the legislation to make it all happen.  

    • #65
  6. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Just a gentle reminder my post concerns FTX in particular, and the risks of investing in general.

    This seems to have become a risk of investing with Americans, as fraud now seems to have become just another business model. Look at all the big money center banks, they’ve all had allegations of fraud, money laundering etc, settled with regulators for millions in fines…. But less than the profits they made from the illegal activities that landed them in trouble.

    I think it would be helpful if we stopped thinking of the FTX Ukraine business as money laundering. It was a kickback scheme. Democrats voted for more aide to Ukraine a portion of that aide was siphoned off, and donated to the democrats (and a few republicans) who vocally supported that aide… Textbook kickback…

    Foreign aid is supposed to be about kickbacks. We “give” millions so that they can buy ONLY from American arms makers and other US producers guided by paid American consultants to grease the skids. If it is a really well-designed program, beneficiaries kick back to the people who enacted the legislation to make it all happen.

    The Ukes have been buying Turkish Baktar drones. Maybe other stuff that doesn’t make it into the news. They are paying our money, but most of it will be to American companies because our stuff is so good, and Raytheon doesn’t take IOUs.

    • #66
  7. Dotorimuk Coolidge
    Dotorimuk
    @Dotorimuk

    The Norks are quite good at hacking crypto:

    https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2022/11/07/2022110700794.html

    • #67
  8. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    My favorite part of the whole story is the lawsuit against the company, naming all the celebrities that did ads for FTX. One of them is Larry David. Well, if you watch the ad he did, Larry is bulletproof.

    • #68
  9. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    You need a crypto with commodity style structure like bitcoin.

    You need a simple exchange. 

    You need cold storage.

    Isn’t everything beyond that automatically considered pretty sketchy? I mean what the hell is the utility?

    Furthermore, none of the big governments can let any of this be too successful, and my understanding is they have the power to wipe it all out.

    • #69
  10. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Just a gentle reminder my post concerns FTX in particular, and the risks of investing in general.

    This seems to have become a risk of investing with Americans, as fraud now seems to have become just another business model. Look at all the big money center banks, they’ve all had allegations of fraud, money laundering etc, settled with regulators for millions in fines…. But less than the profits they made from the illegal activities that landed them in trouble.

    I think it would be helpful if we stopped thinking of the FTX Ukraine business as money laundering. It was a kickback scheme. Democrats voted for more aide to Ukraine a portion of that aide was siphoned off, and donated to the democrats (and a few republicans) who vocally supported that aide… Textbook kickback…

    Foreign aid is supposed to be about kickbacks. We “give” millions so that they can buy ONLY from American arms makers and other US producers guided by paid American consultants to grease the skids. If it is a really well-designed program, beneficiaries kick back to the people who enacted the legislation to make it all happen.

    Thats not a kickback… If after the sale the CEO of Boeing (for completely random example) gave a campaign donation to a few democrats and a few foreign politicians, thats a kick back.

    A lot of this cash for Ukraine isnt actually going to Ukraine – its staying in the US buying arms that’s being sent over to the Ukraine… Then the guns end up being used by street gangs in Sweden.

    • #70
  11. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Fox news is reporting that FTX literally had no auditors ever. How in the hell does somebody like Kevin O’Leary get involved given that?

    Then you’ve got Gary Gensler. 

    • #71
  12. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    I keep forgetting to say this. There is an attorney named Moskowitz. He specializes in this stuff. He’s going after Mark Cuban and he’s getting involved in FTX. There was another Miami exchange called voyager that went down and it was highly promoted by Mark Cuban. That guy always rubbed me the wrong way. Doesn’t he have any people that can figure out that they don’t understand what the hell they are dealing with?

    • #72
  13. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    The Norks are quite good at hacking crypto:

    https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2022/11/07/2022110700794.html

    This is no different than criminals “hacking into” one’s bank account by stealing your PIN. It has nothing to do with crypto, and everything to do with people depositing their crypto with a (probably unregulated) “trusted third party”.

    Keep your crypto on an air-gapped USB drive and nobody else, least of all the Norks, can touch it.

    • #73
  14. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    Isn’t everything beyond that automatically considered pretty sketchy? I mean what the hell is the utility?

    I see two utility cases:

    1. People who aren’t savvy enough to do this stuff themselves. i.e. The same sort of people who would buy penny stocks over the telephone from a stranger they know nothing about.  You know.  Morons.
    2. To avoid the horror stories about people who’ve lost USB drives and/or forgotten the passwords to drives containing millions in Bitcoin.

      https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/man-who-lost-password-to-220m-worth-of-bitcoin-says-hes-made-peace/

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/15/uk-man-makes-last-ditch-effort-to-recover-lost-bitcoin-hard-drive.html

    • #74
  15. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    Furthermore, none of the big governments can let any of this be too successful, and my understanding is they have the power to wipe it all out.

    I don’t buy that. They can make it harder for lazy users, but I wager that savvy crypto users will always be able to find a workaround. 

    • #75
  16. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    That’s what Mike Green says. I have no idea.

    • #76
  17. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    Fox news is reporting that FTX literally had no auditors ever. How in the hell does somebody like Kevin O’Leary get involved given that?

    • #77
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

     

     

     

     

    • #78
  19. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    The Norks are quite good at hacking crypto:

    https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2022/11/07/2022110700794.html

    This is no different than criminals “hacking into” one’s bank account by stealing your PIN. It has nothing to do with crypto, and everything to do with people depositing their crypto with a (probably unregulated) “trusted third party”.

    Keep your crypto on an air-gapped USB drive and nobody else, least of all the Norks, can touch it.

    As long as the USB isn’t malware. 

    • #79
  20. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    The second hour of the Thursday Ben Shapiro show was really good on FTX etc. Really comprehensive but understandable 30,000 ft to ground level.

    I need to listen to it again, but I wanted to get one thing out for sure.

    I think when they talk about if it’s going to be regulated as a security or a commodity, the proper way to label that is whether it’s “trustless” or not. Bitcoin is trustless. I don’t see the point of ones that aren’t trustless, but what do I know.

    • #80
  21. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    The Norks are quite good at hacking crypto:

    https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2022/11/07/2022110700794.html

    This is no different than criminals “hacking into” one’s bank account by stealing your PIN. It has nothing to do with crypto, and everything to do with people depositing their crypto with a (probably unregulated) “trusted third party”.

    Keep your crypto on an air-gapped USB drive and nobody else, least of all the Norks, can touch it.

    As long as the USB isn’t malware. 

    • #81
  22. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    OK this is really weird. This is from Liz McDonald on FOXBusiness. 

    They supposedly had four “board” members that are ex commodity futures trading commission regulators or commissioners, I forget which. How do you have a board of directors and no audits? She’s also reporting that they literally didn’t have any accounting department. How could you have guys like that, that would get themselves into that position? She didn’t name names, but she reported that they were all Democrats. 

    I suppose they can get away with a lot of stuff and a bogus structure because it’s based in the Bahamas. 

    • #82
  23. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    OK this is really weird. This is from Liz McDonald on FOXBusiness.

    They supposedly had four “board” members that are ex commodity futures trading commission regulators or commissioners, I forget which. How do you have a board of directors and no audits? She’s also reporting that they literally didn’t have any accounting department. How could you have guys like that, that would get themselves into that position? She didn’t name names, but she reported that they were all Democrats.

    I suppose they can get away with a lot of stuff and a bogus structure because it’s based in the Bahamas.

    Wow.  Totally shocking that former bureaucrats cashed in their govt creds for a payday and were happy to do squadoosh other than lend their resumes.  

    And no audits, no paper trail, and no snoozefest PowerPoint presentation that would otherwise disrupt the steady flow of those drinks with paper umbrellas.  They will miss FTX, I am sure.

    I keep hoping that some Fortune 50 company wants the prestige of having a frequent Ricochet contributor on their board for a modest 50 or 100 K per month.

    • #83
  24. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Ernst Rabbit von Hasenpfeffer (View Comment):

    Douglas Pratt (View Comment):

    So, Magic Internet Money turns out to be a scam that benefits Democrats. This is my surprised face.

    Magic Fiat Dollar Money also benefits Democrats.

    Let’s be honest here: magic fiat money benefits everyone inside The One big Money Party.

    The fact that usually that party’s numerous  members have a cover story of “this needed expensive war” or “oops our friends in banking crashed the economy” doesn’t negate the fact that 85% of our  elected officials will do anything to keep the cover story afloat and the money rolling in.

    The hype we all have tried to survive since Mar 2020 involved the monetization of our bodies and our health.

    At least this crypto currency dude hasn’t caused an 84% increase in fatality rise during 2021, inside the very age group  counted on to be the healthiest in our society.

     

     

    • #84
  25. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    “I believe, as do many others, that block-chain technology and smart contracts will continue to play an important and growing role in the world’s financial architecture, and further, I have every confidence that The Bahamas will emerge from the proceedings involving FTX – proceedings taking place here as well as in other jurisdictions – with an enhanced reputation as a solid digital assets jurisdiction,” Prime Minister Davis said. 

     

    “Based on the analysis and understanding of the FTX liquidity crisis to date, we have not identified any deficiencies in our regulatory framework that could have avoided this,” he added.  “In fact, it was because The Bahamas already had in place a regulatory framework for digital assets and digital asset businesses, that the regulator was able to take immediate steps in order to protect the interests of clients, creditors, and other stakeholders globally.”

     

    https://www.bahamas.gov.bs/wps/portal/public/gov/government/news/prime%20minister%20davis%20addresses%20ftx%20in%20the%20house%20of%20assembly/!ut/p/b1/vZTZbqMwFIafpQ_QYgOGcMm-BGP2ADdRCISEELKQAOHph0qVZpGmczOtz5Wl__izvyOZyqiEytpNf6g298O53TTv-4xbM0DHosgu8ELjRGBGjMagpcjoHpwD6RwAf1ki-L1fR4Cb-11bdHmDJkuaWlGJkQJe6XClqkHfnaEtubz2wMPIy7ncOXu1kjR7d9u6QRhN5XGx6XsrHpG9HLJC3ztuKUhHe7ybZjw5xk2FSBm1nSQfa3UVgqtY5cfctGWsaT6MtDPiiCe1U4cUsalLViaxSDBrmNmwiuV4vxiFcofcDQhk5O64pDinPRNOOL24pn-_uzmp7yPxtZobEr44wE6YbxVO5us6srNjVIfVy8uHk08e_Q-nKyr7VBsLPgKfaHeM86mk0jnG_3JOGANgQiD6AfTAguepkEoAuw7q58WcjpNfT8HTsVUQ2JYJw9jBU544oUawUEKsdjQMIxorHsS3AARK5gZF6BaxH0mi4j_plP0TSOhQmIEy5JYRAoHOfDVQR2Qxm-JDV0T0LIL7biD6KqBOsCe_Kw2ld6WMYYiczRAVfjfw_8_QorJDfnobtqc38IZYiJAAaYGjeZqHPBVfIm7-H8xBdR_xarJkfCPjYtA1KabzK2MFSXcuLu4gLEtTOVr7js6yOxGaW7QELctOt94XUNiVjUUIrdk4jWE_jm0TQW3bsGgTNLm9odmi2xx2ddS0fSIA1rhXTyVNR–aPiLpYXlLx1zafrI9WGarNbqmDK8rTxYYiI8dOeutqipeULlmUN1YQwkMbU3f-UeRXU8SXaPV6WRuX62qtscot246c9ifSesUhwuzLkeya9ZivtevSUZdTlFvc_7C2f0sLL68_AA4h-HB/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/

    • #85
  26. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    I finished around in the Bahamian government website. It’s not reassuring. lol It looks like one guy’s press release got buried as a different link.

    I wonder what legal action you have to accede to or initiate to officially be on the “board”. Did they sign something? It was probably just a photo on the website. lol 

    I mean good god you’d have to talk to a lawyer before you did that.

    • #86
  27. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):
    Furthermore, use cases vary according to the commodity AS WELL AS the user.  For example, diamonds are a very useful commodity for some people in some situations while being virtually useless for other people in other situations. 

    When I was a child I saw this Gilligan’s Island episode where Howell is imprisoned by an island native.   He tries to bribe the native with a bundle of cash.   The native discards the currency (useless) and keeps the rubber band (useful).  I learned a lot about money that day.

    • #87
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    “I believe, as do many others, that block-chain technology and smart contracts will continue to play an important and growing role in the world’s financial architecture, and further, I have every confidence that The Bahamas will emerge from the proceedings involving FTX – proceedings taking place here as well as in other jurisdictions – with an enhanced reputation as a solid digital assets jurisdiction,” Prime Minister Davis said.

     

    “Based on the analysis and understanding of the FTX liquidity crisis to date, we have not identified any deficiencies in our regulatory framework that could have avoided this,” he added. “In fact, it was because The Bahamas already had in place a regulatory framework for digital assets and digital asset businesses, that the regulator was able to take immediate steps in order to protect the interests of clients, creditors, and other stakeholders globally.”

     

    https://www.bahamas.gov.bs/wps/portal/public/gov/government/news/prime%20minister%20davis%20addresses%20ftx%20in%20the%20house%20of%20assembly/!ut/p/b1/vZTZbqMwFIafpQ_QYgOGcMm-BGP2ADdRCISEELKQAOHph0qVZpGmczOtz5Wl__izvyOZyqiEytpNf6g298O53TTv-4xbM0DHosgu8ELjRGBGjMagpcjoHpwD6RwAf1ki-L1fR4Cb-11bdHmDJkuaWlGJkQJe6XClqkHfnaEtubz2wMPIy7ncOXu1kjR7d9u6QRhN5XGx6XsrHpG9HLJC3ztuKUhHe7ybZjw5xk2FSBm1nSQfa3UVgqtY5cfctGWsaT6MtDPiiCe1U4cUsalLViaxSDBrmNmwiuV4vxiFcofcDQhk5O64pDinPRNOOL24pn-_uzmp7yPxtZobEr44wE6YbxVO5us6srNjVIfVy8uHk08e_Q-nKyr7VBsLPgKfaHeM86mk0jnG_3JOGANgQiD6AfTAguepkEoAuw7q58WcjpNfT8HTsVUQ2JYJw9jBU544oUawUEKsdjQMIxorHsS3AARK5gZF6BaxH0mi4j_plP0TSOhQmIEy5JYRAoHOfDVQR2Qxm-JDV0T0LIL7biD6KqBOsCe_Kw2ld6WMYYiczRAVfjfw_8_QorJDfnobtqc38IZYiJAAaYGjeZqHPBVfIm7-H8xBdR_xarJkfCPjYtA1KabzK2MFSXcuLu4gLEtTOVr7js6yOxGaW7QELctOt94XUNiVjUUIrdk4jWE_jm0TQW3bsGgTNLm9odmi2xx2ddS0fSIA1rhXTyVNR–aPiLpYXlLx1zafrI9WGarNbqmDK8rTxYYiI8dOeutqipeULlmUN1YQwkMbU3f-UeRXU8SXaPV6WRuX62qtscot246c9ifSesUhwuzLkeya9ZivtevSUZdTlFvc_7C2f0sLL68_AA4h-HB/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/

    Only

    https://www.bahamas.gov.bs/wps/portal/public/gov/government/news/prime%20minister%20davis%20addresses%20ftx%20in%20the%20house%20of%20assembly/

    is actually relevant.  The rest is for tracking your activity, what ads to show you, etc.

    • #88
  29. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy has never (View Comment):

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    The Norks are quite good at hacking crypto:

    https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2022/11/07/2022110700794.html

    This is no different than criminals “hacking into” one’s bank account by stealing your PIN. It has nothing to do with crypto, and everything to do with people depositing their crypto with a (probably unregulated) “trusted third party”.

    Keep your crypto on an air-gapped USB drive and nobody else, least of all the Norks, can touch it.

    As long as the USB isn’t malware.

    That’s why you keep it air-gapped.

    • #89
  30. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    The second hour of the Thursday Ben Shapiro show was really good on FTX etc. Really comprehensive but understandable 30,000 ft to ground level.

    I need to listen to it again, but I wanted to get one thing out for sure.

    I think when they talk about if it’s going to be regulated as a security or a commodity, the proper way to label that is whether it’s “trustless” or not. Bitcoin is trustless. I don’t see the point of ones that aren’t trustless, but what do I know.

    The point is that you don’t need trusted third-parties when every transaction is on the blockchain.

    The problem comes when you want to trade your bitcoin for cash. At that point you need a trusted third-party to broker the transaction, unless you’re literally getting paper currency directly from the buyer.

    • #90
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