Happy Augustine’s Birthday!

 

November 13 is the birthday of Augustine, and now you know. Something else you know is that the near future looks like a terrible mess. Let’s know the past while we work on fixing that. Augustine ain’t as important as or insightful as the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels, but he sure does top your average Greek philosopher.  The purpose of life is not money, power, fame, or physical pleasures; it’s the love of G-d and neighbor.

That’s all I got for the moment. I have a new book on Augustine coming out, and I’ll try to do a few posts on that later. For now, I’ll just give you this link to my first (and cheap) Augustine book, and this nifty tip on the subject of its third chapter:

Augustine’s second surviving book features a conversation held on his birthday in Cassiciacum, near Milan.  They use his birthday meal as an opportunity to talk about the meaning of life.  There’s some Stoicism stuff, some Plato stuff, and most importantly some Bible stuff that’s not exactly 100% compatible with the Stoicism and Plato stuff.  It’s a short and delightful little philosophy/theology book. The book is called De Beata VitaOn the Happy Life.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Once saved, always saved. I think the rationale is that Christ’s blood (penal atonement) has wiped away your sin, past, present, future once you join yourself through a sinner’s prayer acknowledgement or a baptism.

    Set aside the eternal security stuff. Until you understand the Reformation theology of justification you won’t understand any Reformation theology of eternal security.

    But you’re actually pretty close. Focus on the idea of Christ’s blood wiping away sin in one moment. Now imagine that that moment is the first moment of the process of sanctification.

    Set aside the “eternal security”???? I forgot about that term. Oh yes. Once saved, always saved; eternal security. If that is not true for Evangelical Protestants, I’ll send them over to you to get corrected. But obviously there is a terminology problem somewhere in your faith.

    Nothing of the sort is obvious.

    And who said “that is not true for Evangelical Protestants”? What is not true? What are you even talking about?

    Eternal security and once saved, always saved. You can read Jimmy Akin, who is extraordinarily charitable in his treatment of Protestant theology. John Calvin most certainly believed in eternal security in its strictest definition. Here’s what I see has happened over time. John Calvin did not believe in human free will, and so a concept of eternal security was not illogical. Within his construct, it could make sense. But Reformed Protestants of today, unless they are original Calvinists, have evolved to believing in human free will. Once you introduce free will in a belief system that has moral consequences, you eternal security is fallacious. You have free will to sin but still you are saved? It’s either eternal security or it’s not. It’s internal logic does not follow. This is probably the reason John Wesley and Jacobus Arminius went completely the other way from Calvin. They must have seen that once you introduce free will, which was apparent from scripture, then sin had to have ramifications.

    What is the difference between Baptists, Evangelical Protestants, and Calvinists? Do each believe in free will and eternal security?

    I believe in free will and eternal security.  Pretty typical–not universal–position for a Baptist.

    Now why are you imagining that I’m implying eternal security is “not true for Evangelical Protestants”?   This comment that I’m typing right now is the first I’ve even said anything about it.

    What I’ve actually been telling you is that it’s pointless to try to understand this doctrine in Reformation theology until you understand the Reformation theology of justification–which you don’t.  You’re trying to have this conversation with me on some topic in Reformation theology, but it’s a more advanced topic, and you’ve stopped talking about the prerequisite topic.

    • #61
  2. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    I’ve always thought eternal security is like Gnosticism. With Gnosticism , there’s no struggle, there’s just acceptance of the realization that you are part of God. And once you realize that…once you have “gnosis”…you’re eternally saved.  Your salvation isn’t based on anything you choose, it’s not based on what you love, it’s just based on the realization of what you are: part of God. 

    • #62
  3. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    @manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    • #63
  4. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A.  I’ve mostly lost the train of thought.  I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me.  Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both!  ;)

    • #64
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    W Bob (View Comment):

    I’ve always thought eternal security is like Gnosticism. With Gnosticism , there’s no struggle, there’s just acceptance of the realization that you are part of God. And once you realize that…once you have “gnosis”…you’re eternally saved. Your salvation isn’t based on anything you choose, it’s not based on what you love, it’s just based on the realization of what you are: part of God.

    That’s interesting.  We are part of the Body of Christ with baptism, but that doesn’t mean you can’t rebel against it.  It doesn’t mean you can’t willfully disobey.   

    • #65
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A. I’ve mostly lost the train of thought. I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me. Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both! ;)

    Well, no, but you’re supposed to get an alert under that bell shape at the top of the screen.  Sometimes it doesn’t seem to work.

    Good grief.  Start with knowing what you’re talking about!

    Learn this now: Protestant theology says that salvation involves works.

    And if you’re thinking “That doesn’t sound at all like what the Protestants told me!”, then learn this instead:

    You have much to learn about Protestant theology; you don’t understand it.

    • #66
  7. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A. I’ve mostly lost the train of thought. I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me. Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both! ;)

    Well, no, but you’re supposed to get an alert under that bell shape at the top of the screen. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to work.

    Good grief. Start with knowing what you’re talking about!

    Learn this now: Protestant theology says that salvation involves works.

    And if you’re thinking “That doesn’t sound at all like what the Protestants told me!”, then learn this instead:

    You have much to learn about Protestant theology; you don’t understand it.

    OK!  In time you’ll have to fill me in.  (Again, I think I said somewhere above, not all Protestants disregard works.  I want to be clear on that.)  

    • #67
  8. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A. I’ve mostly lost the train of thought. I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me. Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both! ;)

    Well, no, but you’re supposed to get an alert under that bell shape at the top of the screen. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to work.

    Good grief. Start with knowing what you’re talking about!

    Learn this now: Protestant theology says that salvation involves works.

    And if you’re thinking “That doesn’t sound at all like what the Protestants told me!”, then learn this instead:

    You have much to learn about Protestant theology; you don’t understand it.

    OK! In time you’ll have to fill me in. (Again, I think I said somewhere above, not all Protestants disregard works. I want to be clear on that.)

    I did fill you in: Salvation is by faith, not by earning G-d’s favor with good works.

    And what is faith?  Faith is the life-change that is the necessary response to what Jesus did.

    • #68
  9. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A. I’ve mostly lost the train of thought. I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me. Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both! ;)

    Well, no, but you’re supposed to get an alert under that bell shape at the top of the screen. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to work.

    Good grief. Start with knowing what you’re talking about!

    Learn this now: Protestant theology says that salvation involves works.

    And if you’re thinking “That doesn’t sound at all like what the Protestants told me!”, then learn this instead:

    You have much to learn about Protestant theology; you don’t understand it.

    OK! In time you’ll have to fill me in. (Again, I think I said somewhere above, not all Protestants disregard works. I want to be clear on that.)

    I did fill you in: Salvation is by faith, not by earning G-d’s favor with good works.

    And what is faith? Faith is the life-change that is the necessary response to what Jesus did.

    Are you saying then that Catholics and Protestants (of the reformed strand) don’t disagree over this?

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    @ manny, what’s your point exactly?

    Is it “Protestants are wrong on eternal security,” or is it “Protestants are wrong on salvation not involving works,” or is it something else?

    Oh, I’ve been away St. A. I’ve mostly lost the train of thought. I wonder why I didn’t get an email notice by you mentioning me. Do members still email notices when mentioned?

    And yes, in all charity, you’re wrong on both! ;)

    Well, no, but you’re supposed to get an alert under that bell shape at the top of the screen. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to work.

    Good grief. Start with knowing what you’re talking about!

    Learn this now: Protestant theology says that salvation involves works.

    And if you’re thinking “That doesn’t sound at all like what the Protestants told me!”, then learn this instead:

    You have much to learn about Protestant theology; you don’t understand it.

    OK! In time you’ll have to fill me in. (Again, I think I said somewhere above, not all Protestants disregard works. I want to be clear on that.)

    I did fill you in: Salvation is by faith, not by earning G-d’s favor with good works.

    And what is faith? Faith is the life-change that is the necessary response to what Jesus did.

    Are you saying then that Catholics and Protestants (of the reformed strand) don’t disagree over this?

    Precisely. Like I said earlier.

    Our actual dispute is something different.

    • #70
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