‘Which Americans Don’t Support Troops to Ukraine?’ Answering Schake’s Question

 

Question:

Kori Schake of AEI was interviewed on the most recent Ricochet flagship podcast.  She questioned the assertion that most Americans do not want to put boots on ground in Ukraine.  Conversation followed in the comments on that podcast, as well as on a Jon Gabriel thread No US Troops in Ukraine, Thank You Very Much, and we conducted a well-attended poll (members-only link) here at Ricochet, asking US Citizens only.

How the question was put in the poll:

Ricochet Poll of US Citizen Members: Ukraine Boots On Ground?

Please indicate (with a “like”) the ONE comment below, of 1-4, which most closely matches your position.  One of the positions makes no sense (to me, anyway), but is included for completeness.

This poll considers two aspects of the problem:

  • Support for Ukraine against Russia (money, intelligence, diplomacy, arms; everything but US Forces)
  • Troops to Ukraine (US armed forces in-country, “Boots on Ground”, includes any presence of US military personnel in the territory, water, or airspace of Ukraine)

NOT ADDRESSED: extraterritorial sabotage (pipelines and so forth), US Boots in Russia, US involvement in direct attacks on Russia etc.  For polling purposes, we are just talking about vanilla war against Russia in Ukraine.

Available answers were the four logical combinations of answering YES or NO on (general) support and on troops:

Support NO; Troops NO

Support NO; Troops YES

Support YES; Troops NO

Support YES; Troops YES

Answer:

Support NO; Troops NO: 31

Support NO; Troops YES: 0

Support YES; Troops NO: 39

Support YES; Troops YES: 0

With some caveats, “Amcits” (as State like to say) on Ricochet are divided evenly on whether to support Ukraine at all, and are unanimously against sending troops.  Caveats:

  • Some (two or three) commented that they could support troops under certain circumstances.
  • Some (one or two) said that they were undecided in general.

Meaning:

Gee, hard to say, Kori.  I’ll select some relevant comments from these conversations:

EJHill+ :
The idea that anyone with influence in policy circles openly talked about manipulating the American people into what could be a civilization-ending conflict and they were going to do it by insinuating that either you’re all in or you’re not… well, I still have no way to express myself in a civil manner.

Jon Gabriel, Ed. :
I was stunned at her cavalier attitude, both to the use of nukes and to sending other people’s children to a war that doesn’t involve us. Seemed like she was phoning in from 2002.

OwnedByDogs :
With a son who is an Army officer, I most definitely do not want American soldiers involved. I do want Ukrainians supported fully so that we have the best chance of keeping American soldiers from fighting Russians.

HeavyWater :
I’m not completely closed to troops.  Just not right now.
If it’s breaking Putin’s military, don’t fix it.

Rightfromthestart :
I voted #3 but my patience is wearing thin […] I’m a Vietnam vet but American blood in Ukraine with the risk of nuclear war, NO !

James Lileks :
What stunned me – among other things – was the idea that sending troops was actually already popular. IIRC, my assertion that most people don’t want that was met with incredulity, as if I was living in a bubble, and had missed all the parades and rallies.

I’ll graciously reserve the last word for myself:

BDB :
She’s not snooty or crude, but her haughty dismissal of a hundred million people like Lileks as cowards serves as a poor defense for her Heigh-Ho  do-gooderism.  They’re just flyover people.  They come from the ground and it doesn’t matter to her whose soil is enriched by their eventual return.

The problem with people like Kori Schake is the disconnect alluded to by several people in these conversations.  People were right to point out her smirking disbelief that anybody opposed sending troops to Ukraine.  We’re not “taking counsel of our fears” with regard to Putin — it’s the US Government we deeply mistrust, and Nuclear Nellie is a perfect illustration of exactly whom we actively distrust.

Fortunately for us, she already has the answer:

(h/t @KeithKeystone )

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  1. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    It’s AEI. What did you expect? 

    • #1
  2. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels.   My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all.   Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.  Ukraine is a corrupt place that corrupts all that touches it.  I wish its people well but its problems are not our problems.  It is a Russia / Ukraine / EU issue and we do not need to be involved in any way.  Especially with a corrupt Joe Biden and a corrupt Democrat party at the helm.   I do not support any war with US involvement.  And considering recent developments of the military embracing the woke Left I have been withdrawing my support of them as an organization.  Mainly because I foresee a time the US military will be used against the GOP / conservatives and the MAGA extremist.

    • #2
  3. Nohaaj Coolidge
    Nohaaj
    @Nohaaj

    Recently, I have been wondering what the active status of this site was, meaning, how many people are reading and contributing.  I see the wonderful, insightful, inspiring, funny, knowledgeable, wise postings from the same relatively small group.  

    BDB’s survey had 70 responses.  That seems about right.  He did limit it to US citizens, which left out a few others, but 70 responses.  Ricochet is this small, intense, cadre of folk.  Glad you are here.  I surmise there are many more that perhaps visit occasionally, but 70.  That is the core.

    My observation has nothing to do with BDB’s survey. Sorry for hijacking it to make this observation.

    Carry on. 

     

    • #3
  4. Nohaaj Coolidge
    Nohaaj
    @Nohaaj

    This just in from the ISW:  Lyman is confirmed to have fallen, The Ukes regained control.  However, the last sentence of the update is critical: 

    Social media footage and Ukrainian military officials confirmed that Ukrainian forces have entered Lyman and are likely clearing the settlement as of October 1.

    The Russian information space – composed of Kremlin propagandists, pundits, and milbloggers – registered the defeat as the result of the Russian military command’s failure to send reinforcements in a timely manner, while openly criticizing repeated bureaucratic failures during the mobilization.[2] Russian commentators overwhelmingly expressed their hopes that partial mobilization would generate enough force to resume offensive operations and regain the initiative. Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, apparently devastated by the defeat in Lyman, called on Russia to continue to fight to ”liberate” the four annexed territories with all available means including low-yield nuclear weapons.[3]

    • #4
  5. mildlyo Member
    mildlyo
    @mildlyo

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.

    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by the beginning of a long planned offensive by the NATO trained Ukraine army to reconquer Donbas and Crimea. Everyone with satellites would have seen this if true, eventually those facts will come out. Not interested in arguing that just now.

    In the meantime, we must consider that any such army must have been built up between 2014 and 2021. This is largely the Trump administration. President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    • #5
  6. Nohaaj Coolidge
    Nohaaj
    @Nohaaj

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Eh, do you recall Biden encouraging Putin to invade? ” It’s ok if it is a minor incursion” 

    • #6
  7. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.

    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by the beginning of a long planned offensive by the NATO trained Ukraine army to reconquer Donbas and Crimea. Everyone with satellites would have seen this if true, eventually those facts will come out. Not interested in arguing that just now.

    In the meantime, we must consider that any such army must have been built up between 2014 and 2021. This is largely the Trump administration. President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Sorry man, but no wonder you’re not interested in arguing that just now.

    “That which is asserted without evidence may be rejected on the same basis.”

    Your whole comment is predicated upon “The Russians claim…” which is a lousy basis for going out on limbs.

    EDIT: Of course the Russian are claiming it was Aliens or whatever.  Anything to avoid admitting that they are being beaten soundly by a second-tier army with first-tier support.  They were “supposed” to roll into Keeeeev and just own the whole thing.  They’re mostly reactive tactically, the tide is seems to be turning strategically, and they look like asses on the world stage.  “ALIENS!”

    • #7
  8. mildlyo Member
    mildlyo
    @mildlyo

    BDB (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.

    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by the beginning of a long planned offensive by the NATO trained Ukraine army to reconquer Donbas and Crimea. Everyone with satellites would have seen this if true, eventually those facts will come out. Not interested in arguing that just now.

    In the meantime, we must consider that any such army must have been built up between 2014 and 2021. This is largely the Trump administration. President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Sorry man, but no wonder you;re not interested in arguing that just now.

    “That which is asserted without evidence may be rejected on the same basis.”

    Your whole comment is predicated upon “The Russians claim…” which is a lousy basis for going out on limbs.

    EDIT: Of course the Russian are claiming it was Aliens or whatever. Anything to avoid admitting that they are being beaten soundly by a second-tier army with first-tier support. They were “supposed” to roll into Keeeeev and just own the whole thing. They’re mostly reactive tactically, the tide is turning strategically, and they look like asses on the world stage. “ALIENS!”

    “eventually those facts will come out”

    • #8
  9. mildlyo Member
    mildlyo
    @mildlyo

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Eh, do you recall Biden encouraging Putin to invade? ” It’s ok if it is a minor incursion

    I do remember. Not sure if Biden does. I would tend to believe that any such campaign by Ukraine against the Donbas would require approval from the US government at the highest level. To keep the support flowing to Ukraine.

    • #9
  10. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.

    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by the beginning of a long planned offensive by the NATO trained Ukraine army to reconquer Donbas and Crimea. Everyone with satellites would have seen this if true, eventually those facts will come out. Not interested in arguing that just now.

    In the meantime, we must consider that any such army must have been built up between 2014 and 2021. This is largely the Trump administration. President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Sorry man, but no wonder you;re not interested in arguing that just now.

    “That which is asserted without evidence may be rejected on the same basis.”

    Your whole comment is predicated upon “The Russians claim…” which is a lousy basis for going out on limbs.

    EDIT: Of course the Russian are claiming it was Aliens or whatever. Anything to avoid admitting that they are being beaten soundly by a second-tier army with first-tier support. They were “supposed” to roll into Keeeeev and just own the whole thing. They’re mostly reactive tactically, the tide is turning strategically, and they look like asses on the world stage. “ALIENS!”

    “eventually those facts will come out”

    i.e., Nothing. 

    I have some sympathy on that front, believe me.  There are things which I think are obvious but which I I cannot support.  But this one is, so far, just a Russian excuse.  

    • #10
  11. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Eh, do you recall Biden encouraging Putin to invade? ” It’s ok if it is a minor incursion

    I do remember. Not sure if Biden does. I would tend to believe that any such campaign by Ukraine against the Donbas would require approval from the US government at the highest level. To keep the support flowing to Ukraine.

    When Putin annexed Crimea, Barry sent the Ukrainians MREs and blankets.

    Trump sent Javelin systems and M-2 sniper rifles. (The Russians retro-fitted their tanks with additional kit meant to prevent Javelins from penetrating. The volume of tank parts littering Ukraine is testament to just how well that worked.)

    Slow Joe gave his permission to invade just a little bit.

    • #11
  12. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Nohaaj (View Comment):
    Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, apparently devastated by the defeat in Lyman, called on Russia to continue to fight to ”liberate” the four annexed territories with all available means including low-yield nuclear weapons.[3]

    What is traditional Soviet/Russian doctrine on the use of tactical nukes? As best I recall the Soviets tended to think they could use battlefield nukes without triggering full-scale thermonuclear war, while NATO doctrine regarded any use of tactical nukes as far more likely to escalate.

    • #12
  13. E. Kent Golding Member
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by

    Biden is a gift to the the Russians, indeed, to all of America’s enemies.    The timing of their invasion was based on the idea that they wanted to do it while a demented anti-American moron was in the white house.   However,  the Russians are not going to undermine their asset by stating that they wanted to achieve as much  conquest as possible while FJB was in the white house.   I am sure the Russians  want to complete their conquest of the Ukraine  before February 2025.    If conventional war fails ( and it appears to be failing ) , Russian has the Chemical Biological and Nuclear means to win.    I am sure that Russia is hoping they can pull out a conventional victory ,   but is anyone really willing to place bets on what the Russians would not do to avoid a loss?

    • #13
  14. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The opinion that billions of dollars should be sent to Ukraine is falling in popularity. My prediction is that this time next year (and the war will probably still be going), sending aid will be a minority opinion. Wars are never popular for very long – a lesson I wish our moron politicians would learn.

    • #14
  15. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):
    Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, apparently devastated by the defeat in Lyman, called on Russia to continue to fight to ”liberate” the four annexed territories with all available means including low-yield nuclear weapons.[3]

    What is traditional Soviet/Russian doctrine on the use of tactical nukes? As best I recall the Soviets tended to think they could use battlefield nukes without triggering full-scale thermonuclear war, while NATO doctrine regarded any use of tactical nukes as far more likely to escalate.

    Ramzan has already proven that he is fine with Putin fighting on to the last drop of Chechen blood. It remains to be seen how long the Chechens will put up with the pair of them.

    • #15
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Percival (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Eh, do you recall Biden encouraging Putin to invade? ” It’s ok if it is a minor incursion

    I do remember. Not sure if Biden does. I would tend to believe that any such campaign by Ukraine against the Donbas would require approval from the US government at the highest level. To keep the support flowing to Ukraine.

    When Putin annexed Crimea, Barry sent the Ukrainians MREs and blankets.

    Trump sent Javelin systems and M-2 sniper rifles. (The Russians retro-fitted their tanks with additional kit meant to prevent Javelins from penetrating. The volume of tank parts littering Ukraine is testament to just how well that worked.)

    Slow Joe gave his permission to invade just a little bit.

    Yeah, I think Biden really did.  So much for sovereign borders.

    The thing that gets me is that if he was thinking it, it must have been said is some meetings or other, at least in discussion and preparation for the news conference.  I can envision 8 out of 10 people in the room, saying, “Yes, proportionality of course; minor incursions will be tolerated, but full scale invasion will have to be dealt with by very, very strong sanctions” like seizing Russian bank accounts and Germany forgoing purchasing Russian gas.

    So the world knows SWIFT is insecure, and German industry will be starved– of course they didn’t think ahead to winter heating supplies, either.

    This wasn’t the Trump administration doing this.  This is all Biden’s.

    • #16
  17. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    @keithkeystone, I h/t’d you for the Strangelove reference — I don’t think posts generate notifications, so I hit you with this on here in the comments.

    Keith had me laughing out loud in the comments to the actual podcast.

    • #17
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by

    Biden is a gift to the the Russians, indeed, to all of America’s enemies. The timing of their invasion was based on the idea that they wanted to do it while a demented anti-American moron was in the white house. However, the Russians are not going to undermine their asset by stating that they wanted to achieve as much conquest as possible while FJB was in the white house. I am sure the Russians want to complete their conquest of the Ukraine before February 2025. If conventional war fails ( and it appears to be failing ) , Russian has the Chemical Biological and Nuclear means to win. I am sure that Russia is hoping they can pull out a conventional victory , but is anyone really willing to place bets on what the Russians would not do to avoid a loss?

    I never really thought that Russia would use nukes in Ukraine, but then when people here were advocating entering Russia and flanking Russian forces, I figured that others were thinking it as well.  And that’s when I started to think Russia really would use nukes to defend it’s soil.  And not on the battlefield either, but on or near a city or two.  It worked with Japan.  And while things are different now, does anyone in NATO really want to go nuclear in retaliation, and risk going full nuclear in Europe?  I don’t think so.

    My thinking is that conventional armies entering Russia is a very bad idea.  But I really wouldn’t put it past Biden and Blinken and all.  This is not a world war, but they could easily make it one.

    • #18
  19. Vince Guerra Inactive
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    War is great business for lots of people that you and I and the families who provide the troops will never be allowed in the same room with. Likely Ms. Schake hangs with them (or is a hanger-on of them) and doesn’t actually give a CoC about our troops or Ukrainians. 

    • #19
  20. mildlyo Member
    mildlyo
    @mildlyo

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Eh, do you recall Biden encouraging Putin to invade? ” It’s ok if it is a minor incursion

    I do remember. Not sure if Biden does. I would tend to believe that any such campaign by Ukraine against the Donbas would require approval from the US government at the highest level. To keep the support flowing to Ukraine.

    When Putin annexed Crimea, Barry sent the Ukrainians MREs and blankets.

    Trump sent Javelin systems and M-2 sniper rifles. (The Russians retro-fitted their tanks with additional kit meant to prevent Javelins from penetrating. The volume of tank parts littering Ukraine is testament to just how well that worked.)

    Slow Joe gave his permission to invade just a little bit.

    Yeah, I think Biden really did. So much for sovereign borders.

    The thing that gets me is that if he was thinking it, it must have been said is some meetings or other, at least in discussion and preparation for the news conference. I can envision 8 out of 10 people in the room, saying, “Yes, proportionality of course; minor incursions will be tolerated, but full scale invasion will have to be dealt with by very, very strong sanctions” like seizing Russian bank accounts and Germany forgoing purchasing Russian gas.

    So the world knows SWIFT is insecure, and German industry will be starved– of course they didn’t think ahead to winter heating supplies, either.

    This wasn’t the Trump administration doing this. This is all Biden’s.

    Yeah, I think you are correct. I should no more blame Trump for building up Ukrainian defense forces than I should blame  Bush 41 for not finishing the Gulf war before the next election. A president does what he thinks is right and passes everything off to his successor.

    The successor’s administration can be a hole in history during which nothing happens and every grievance festers and metastasizes (Clinton). Or the successor can set the world afire by pushing defense forces to attack a red line (Biden). In neither case is it the fault of the predecessor.

    • #20
  21. Keith Keystone Member
    Keith Keystone
    @KeithKeystone

    BDB (View Comment):

    @ keithkeystone, I h/t’d you for the Strangelove reference — I don’t think posts generate notifications, so I hit you with this on here in the comments.

    Keith had me laughing out loud in the comments to the actual podcast.

    Haha yes she would make General Turgidson quite proud. We got to GET dem ROOSKIES!!

    • #21
  22. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off. Ukraine is a corrupt place that corrupts all that touches it. I wish its people well but its problems are not our problems. It is a Russia / Ukraine / EU issue and we do not need to be involved in any way. Especially with a corrupt Joe Biden and a corrupt Democrat party at the helm. I do not support any war with US involvement. And considering recent developments of the military embracing the woke Left I have been withdrawing my support of them as an organization. Mainly because I foresee a time the US military will be used against the GOP / conservatives and the MAGA extremist.

    A friend just justified his support of the Ukraine war efforts by telling me that much of the 40 billion bucks going there was not for weapons but needed food and clean water for women and children.

    Okay, fine. If that is what is happening, he should mortgage his home or sell one of his classic cars and send the money over to a “trusted” relief org. (I don’t support such orgs unless they are on the extreme local level, but better the Red cross than the Zelensky/Biden forces.)

    Americans everywhere are feeling the pinch. Small businesses’ incomes are down, and food prices have increased in Calif by 75 to 100%. My community has no clean water as is the situation with 299 other Calif communities.

    • #22
  23. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    mildlyo (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    These people are going to drag us into a war thinking they are on the side of angels. My point is that we do not need to be in Ukraine at all. Trump had a lid on it that the Democrats purposely for their own reasons ripped off.

    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by the beginning of a long planned offensive by the NATO trained Ukraine army to reconquer Donbas and Crimea. Everyone with satellites would have seen this if true, eventually those facts will come out. Not interested in arguing that just now.

    In the meantime, we must consider that any such army must have been built up between 2014 and 2021. This is largely the Trump administration. President Trump is eventually going to have to answer for what part he played in the run-up to this war.

    Yeah, look forward to this.  Like other TDS it will just be a bunch of investigations for smoke and mirrors that amount to a whole lot of bull excrement.  Trump is about as transparent as any POTUS has ever been.  America first, no war.  

    • #23
  24. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):
    Biden is a gift to the the Russians, indeed, to all of America’s enemies.    The timing of their invasion was based on the idea that they wanted to do it while a demented anti-American moron was in the white house.

    Putin saw Biden at an event in June or July of 2021. He probably thought Biden want a threat. 

    • #24
  25. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by

    Biden is a gift to the the Russians, indeed, to all of America’s enemies. The timing of their invasion was based on the idea that they wanted to do it while a demented anti-American moron was in the white house. However, the Russians are not going to undermine their asset by stating that they wanted to achieve as much conquest as possible while FJB was in the white house. I am sure the Russians want to complete their conquest of the Ukraine before February 2025. If conventional war fails ( and it appears to be failing ) , Russian has the Chemical Biological and Nuclear means to win. I am sure that Russia is hoping they can pull out a conventional victory , but is anyone really willing to place bets on what the Russians would not do to avoid a loss?

    If our border agents saw women and children being raped by the “mules” who had taken their money to bring them across the border, and these crimes were committed within their eyesight, would anyone condemn them for deciding to stop the barbaric activities?

    Russian officials have watched various atrocities occur in the Ukraine since Dec 2013.

    Yes Russia knew how the USA covertly created the late 2013 Maiden Revolution to topple a legitimately elected Ukrainian president so the JohnKerry/BidenCrime Families could get their children great paying jobs at Burisma.

    By 2014, the Ukrainian troops bulldozed homes and lobbed mortars into communities inside the Eastern portion of the Ukraine. The carnage was such that 225,000 Ukrainians, most of them from that region, fled to Russia. Given that many of the troops which were set upon the Russian ethnic group in the Eastern portion of the nation were skin headed Nazis, I don’t blame the civilians  for fleeing.

    From the archives of Consortium News, here is one account of what went on:

    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/16/ukraine-through-the-us-looking-glass/

    • #25
  26. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Isn’t it grand how we in the western societies clearly have avoided an Orwellian  State-Control over Journalism?

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1576684037069885440

     

    • #26
  27. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):
    Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, apparently devastated by the defeat in Lyman, called on Russia to continue to fight to ”liberate” the four annexed territories with all available means including low-yield nuclear weapons.[3]

    What is traditional Soviet/Russian doctrine on the use of tactical nukes? As best I recall the Soviets tended to think they could use battlefield nukes without triggering full-scale thermonuclear war, while NATO doctrine regarded any use of tactical nukes as far more likely to escalate.

    When Bush the Younger was President, I seem to recall various C Span televised presentations from this or that end of the American military “proving” that tactical nukes are fine.

    You may be right that NATO itself didn’t declare support for tactical nukes. But since at that time, the US was a major financial contributor to the NATO forces, what our military generals thought was of importance.

    • #27
  28. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    mildlyo (View Comment):
    The Russians claim the timing of this war was driven by

    Biden is a gift to the the Russians, indeed, to all of America’s enemies. The timing of their invasion was based on the idea that they wanted to do it while a demented anti-American moron was in the white house. However, the Russians are not going to undermine their asset by stating that they wanted to achieve as much conquest as possible while FJB was in the white house. I am sure the Russians want to complete their conquest of the Ukraine before February 2025. If conventional war fails ( and it appears to be failing ) , Russian has the Chemical Biological and Nuclear means to win. I am sure that Russia is hoping they can pull out a conventional victory , but is anyone really willing to place bets on what the Russians would not do to avoid a loss?

    If our border agents saw women and children being raped by the “mules” who had taken their money to bring them across the border, and these crimes were committed within their eyesight, would anyone condemn them for deciding to stop the barbaric activities?

    Russian officials have watched various atrocities occur in the Ukraine since Dec 2013.

    Yes Russia knew how the USA covertly created the late 2013 Maiden Revolution to topple a legitimately elected Ukrainian president so the JohnKerry/BidenCrime Families could get their children great paying jobs at Burisma.

    By 2014, the Ukrainian troops bulldozed homes and lobbed mortars into communities inside the Eastern portion of the Ukraine. The carnage was such that 225,000 Ukrainians, most of them from that region, fled to Russia. Given that many of the troops which were set upon the Russian ethnic group in the Eastern portion of the nation were skin headed Nazis, I don’t blame the civilians for fleeing.

    From the archives of Consortium News, here is one account of what went on:

    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/16/ukraine-through-the-us-looking-glass/

    Who is Consortium News?

    Consortium News is one of the last refuges out there for journalists critical of the NATO/US State Department world outlook.

    • #28
  29. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    War is great business for lots of people that you and I and the families who provide the troops will never be allowed in the same room with. Likely Ms. Schake hangs with them (or is a hanger-on of them) and doesn’t actually give a CoC about our troops or Ukrainians.

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    Rich men profit from war, while other men die for their profits. 

    Last time we had a draft, rich sons got deferments, while the poor were sent to die.

    Anyone advocating troops sent to die should be willing to go themselves or send a loved one. 

    No rich person in politics should send anyone to die if he is not wiling to fight himself. 

    Washington fought in a war. He actually lead troops in battle as President. 

     

    • #29
  30. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Hash of my previous comments elsewhere:

    Speaking as a former boot on the ground (in my limited office-job-in-a-combat-zone role) who lost friends there, let me set this lady straight on her question about “Who doesn’t want to put boots on ground?”  I don’t. 

    I am rah-frikkin-rah for the Ukrainians, and I hope Putin falls out a window.  But I certainly do not trust this government — especially under the Biden gang — to do anything right when it comes to the command of troops.  Not going in, not being there, not winning, and certainly not getting out.  How can anybody suggest that troops be entrusted to this administration?  Russia is not the only country in which a mobilization will be met with unrest. 

    I also disagree with her prescription that “the more clear we make the consequences, the less likely” will be Russia’s use of nukes. We should be vague and ready, not committed. All that does is tie our own hands. As if Putin were stupid and somehow unaware that the most powerful country on the planet prefers he not nuke Ukraine. Or anywhere else, for that matter. If we promise/threaten specific responses, that gives Putin a roadmap to manipulate us. It’s breathtaking.

    She’s living in some academic bubble, all logic and contracts, in which our actions lead geometrically to the actions of others.  That’s not how this works at all — Putin’s gonna Putin.  She thinks that sending “only” specialized US nuclear fallout cleanup units into Ukraine would meet Lileks’ bar (shared by every respondent to this poll!) of “no US troops fighting Russian troops”.  Not hardly!  Ukraine is a war zone. If we put US troops in on one side, then they are fair game for the other side.

    Both this cockamamie decontamination unit thing and the “specific consequences” thing are perfectly designed to draw us into a shooting war with Russia.

    Having Putin gobble up countries is unacceptable.  Threatening to nuke him is stupid.  So I recommend trying to walk a middle path, and clearly.  Support all sorts of efforts to prevent and punish his bad actions, while leaving him room for a climbdown, the famed “golden road”.  US troops fighting Russian troops is a recipe for all-out war, which is unacceptable on its own, much less the increased probability for that to lead to nuclear war between US and Russia.

    DO:

    • Fund, arm, and support (intel, out-of-country activity) Ukraine’s war effort.
    • Emplace and encourage (subsidize in rare cases) economic sanctions against Russia’s economy and government.
    • Message to the world and in particular to Russians that only the invasion of Ukraine is driving these overt actions.

    DON’T:

    • Gorilla-glue our hands to the nuke button to “show Russia we’re serious” or something.
    • Make excuses for Russia which degrade NATO’s ability to serve its core function.

    Well.  Word limit strikes again.

    • #30
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