Electronic Fraud in the 2020 Election: More Likely than Not

 

Cheating in elections is as old as–well, as old as elections. Cheating in elections using paper is as old as the use of paper in elections.  Are we supposed to just assume that cheating in elections using computers is going to be much younger than the use of computers in elections?

I have now come to believe that it is more likely than not that there was electronic cheating in the 2020 election, but this is a defeasible conclusion — meaning that my reasons for thinking this could easily be refuted.

Oh This Is Bad Oh No GIF - Oh This Is Bad Oh No This Is Bad - Discover & Share GIFsDespite its eventual inevitability, it still comes as a jarring paradigm shift for me merely to entertain the idea that such a thing might be true.  I knew America had problems, but I didn’t think one of them was that our elections are so bad as all that. But there is an argument that it is true.

A very simple argument, but also, once again, defeasible: The electronic side of America’s elections is so terribly insecure that it’s difficult to say concerning a close election whether electronic cheating didn’t nudge the winner over the finish line; in this terrible state, it only takes a little evidence to render it more likely than not that this is just what happened; and, unfortunately, we do have a little evidence.

Before Going into Detail, Let’s Outline that Argument Again

The place to begin is not a pleasant one: We have to recognize that we know next to nothing about our elections.  It’s not that we know there was electronic cheating. The tragedy is that we don’t know that there wasn’t.

Ockham’s Razor does not apply here. There’s no default setting here that says, “It didn’t happen.” The default setting is: We’re blind and in the dark with little or nothing to go on. Odds start at about 50/50. And in this situation, even a little bit of comparatively weak evidence nudges things one way or the other.

We may only have a little evidence. But we do have it. So it’s more likely than not that it happened.

So Why Do We Know Nothing?

you don't know anything gifs | WiffleGif

Read my recent post, “The Voting Machines Need To Go,” for a more detailed commentary on the backstory. Briefly, there are three things wrong with the voting machines that destroy trust by destroying trustworthiness. But that’s only the rotten fruit of the problem. The poisoned root is that we don’t know what’s going on in these machines.

They count votes using ratios–56% Trump to 44% Biden with 100 votes . . . or maybe with 113 votes.

They use secret code.

They have online connectivity.

Let’s zoom in on that last one.

A report from a Michigan Senate committee clarifies (see page 22). Many–but not all–of the voting machines do connect to the internet. It’s for reporting results fast, and the modems are supposed to be switched off during the vote count.

Seems safe enough, except for a point made by Father Brown in the writings of G. K. Chesterton: A reliable electronic system needs to be used by an unreliable system–a human being, the most unreliable of all systems.

This, of course, is why we’re supposed to have processes to make unreliable people into reliable people. Courtroom rules and processes. Ways of fact-checking used in history and science and journalism.  In elections, witnesses and transparency and clean, documented chains of custody.

So are there rules in 50 states specifying that the vote count cannot begin until a Republican observer, a Democrat observer, and a government official have all signed on a dotted line specifying that they checked to confirm that the dang modem was switched the heck off?

If there were, would we not have heard about it in every goshdarn fact check since November 2020?

Instead, we heard the myth that the machines don’t connect to the internet at all.

YARN | Socrates. | Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure | Video gifs by quotes | 6d49834b | 紗Without those processes, we know nothing. We begin as Socrates. We stand in a windowless room with the lights off.  We have no evidence that none of the machines were hacked. There are neither rules nor processes to make the system trustworthy.  Our elites and officials tend to be untrustworthy people, but that doesn’t mean they’re lying–they don’t know anything either! Hardly anyone has even a glimmer of clarity except for the ignored bureaucrats at the Election Assistance Commission advising us to get rid of these machines and some people in Michigan who added a footnote on page 22 of a Senate Oversight Committee report explaining the purpose of the modems in the voting machines.

The long and short of it is this: Trusting the electronic vote count means assuming, with no evidence, that no razor-thin margin in a swing state could have been affected because someone, whether through fraud or incompetence, simply left a modem on.  That’s a weak assumption.  Just as if it were the morning after a one-party machine in Philadelphia announces that ballot boxes opened at 3 AM handed an election to the Democrats with no Republicans or cameras present, Ockham’s Razor tells us nothing.

The odds of an electronically stolen election start at about 50/50, not because we can calculate them to that number but because in this ridiculous state of affairs we just know basically nothing.

So What Evidence Is There?

There are at least two lines of evidence which, as far as I know, are still standing.  You can look up the details in Chapter 9 of the big post here (or, for off-Ricochet, here).  The gist is, simply, this:

There are (at least) still claims from nerds that the computer data show disappearing Trump votes and that statistically impossible vote ratios occurred in the vote updates.

YARN | Nerds! | The Simpsons (1989) - S10E09 Comedy | Video gifs by quotes | 76ffcd71 | 紗(Hey, you want some citations?  The part about disappearing Trump votes is from computer nerds who looked at some information in some computer logs and presented it to the Georgia Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Elections. This Epoch Times piece introduces the topic. A briefer intro here. Scott Adams has some interesting commentary hereHere is a June 2021 video on Gab going over a number of such incidents in multiple states.  This guy comments on other candidates than Trump who also had some disappearing votes. For the part about the statistically impossible vote ratios, see a Rumble video called “Unmasked: The Truth About The 2020 Election”. A blog post from Just a Mom here introduces the same sort of material, focusing on data pertaining to North Dakota.  Or . . . click on the big post linked above, and spend some time in Chapter 9!)

I am incapable of classifying this evidence as decisive in and of itself because I lack the ability even to understand the computer talk and/or to check the data.  So this evidence, at least as far as I know, carries only a little bit of weight in and of itself—maybe just enough to tip the scales.

What carries more weight, and what has for the present persuaded me, is this: Apparently no one has refuted these claims; but if these claims are wrong, then someone probably would have by now.

Accordingly, my working opinion on this topic is: Until such time as someone should refute the claims of the nerds about these phenomena or present some explanation for these phenomena other than electronic election fraud, it is likelier than not that electronic election fraud occurred in the 2020 election, and that it, in coordination with other shenanigans documented elsewhere, flipped swing states.

Lord Of The Rings — “Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It...As I said, very defeasible: Show me the refutation, and I reckon I’ll go back to thinking all that happened was all the other election corruption and folly–rather a lot of it, unfortunately.

This line of reasoning does have one other notable vulnerability. It relies on the premise that someone probably would have refuted these claims by now if they were not true.  That seems likely to me–not least because there are many who are eager to refute such claims, who often try, and who sometimes (as far as I can tell) succeed.

But it might not be true. It might be that the people who are responsible for finding the refutations of these guys are just too unintelligent, uninterested, or lazy to do so.  Given the dismal quality of our journalists, government officials, and experts these days, this certainly seems possible.  Looking past the journalists at the whole country, it’s the same problem. Too many of us are strung out on porn, drugs, internet rage, and video games. Too few of us can read sentences with an advanced grammatical construction, fit a premise to a conclusion, or recognize reality when it stares us in the face–which reminds me, what is a woman?

So I could be wrong. But the logic has changed my views to what they are now, and they can’t change back without better logic or new evidence.

So consider yourself invited to change my mind: Do you know of a refutation I don’t know of?

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  1. Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Yarob (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):
    How’d this post get sucked into fractions? The vote of 100,000,000 is still beaten by no less than 100,000,001 — one whole vote.

    You haven’t noticed, but we’re not talking about individual vote totals like the examples you provide. We’re talking about reporting voting shares as percentages. There’s a difference.

    No we are talking about reporting election results.  And elections are about reporting Votes, not percentages.

    • #61
  2. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    There have been some positive decisions in courts recently, including one maybe just today (Monday) in the Mike Lindell case.

    Sadly, they were hiding under their benches – or their robes – 3 years ago.

    • #62
  3. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Annefy (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Make election fraud a death penalty offense, and enforce it, and watch the problem disappear. Some criminals don’t fear risking death. But the kind of criminals who do this kind of stuff aren’t in that category. Election fraud is overthrowing the government anyway, so why shouldn’t it be a capital offense?

    It’s a winning proposal. Make the opposition argue against it. What argument would they make? Just a general anti death penalty argument? Ok, but then they would feel pressure to at least support much more serious penalties than we now have.

    You’re assuming there’s an “opposition” who wants to get rid of election fraud.

    I believe there are too many people benefiting from unsecure elections – on both sides of the aisle.

    How do Republicans benefit?  Are they stealing elections, too?

    • #63
  4. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    Annefy (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Make election fraud a death penalty offense, and enforce it, and watch the problem disappear. Some criminals don’t fear risking death. But the kind of criminals who do this kind of stuff aren’t in that category. Election fraud is overthrowing the government anyway, so why shouldn’t it be a capital offense?

    It’s a winning proposal. Make the opposition argue against it. What argument would they make? Just a general anti death penalty argument? Ok, but then they would feel pressure to at least support much more serious penalties than we now have.

    You’re assuming there’s an “opposition” who wants to get rid of election fraud.

    I believe there are too many people benefiting from unsecure elections – on both sides of the aisle.

    Well, just imagine a presidential debate where the Republican supports treating election fraud as a capital offense. The Dem would argue against it, but what would he or she say about why it shouldn’t be a capital offense? If you game that scenario out, the Dem will look like he supports voter fraud. If he says he’s against the death penalty in principle, would he support the next most serious punishment, say life in prison? Make them take a position.  Propose legislation. Force a vote. There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted. That’s needs to end. 

    • #64
  5. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I’m advocating they report the votes at 33, or 34, whichever is the actual number.

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Yarob (View Comment):
    They don’t count votes using ratios, they report them using ratios (a percentage is a ratio with respect to 100), and because nobody is interested in reading results accurate to the nth decimal place and because some decimal fractions repeat endlessly and cannot be represented without rounding or truncation, this is a perfectly acceptable way of doing it.

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?

    This is what I didn’t really understand about SA’s main post. How do we know they count votes using ratios? Just because they report them that way, or is there another reason? For every election, including 2020, the results are reported in both percentages and integers.

    That is my confusion as well. For example here are the official results of the 2020 election in California, note that for every race there are exact vote counts as well as (presumably rounded) percentages. Biden got exactly 11,110,639 votes, or approximately 63.5% of the total.

    That’s exactly right. I don’t know whether SA is saying that the mere reporting of the results in percentages is evidence of a deeper problem (it isn’t), or whether he’s saying that there’s reason to believe the machines, as they tabulate the votes, are rounding the actual results away from the true results.

    If there was intentional fraud, it would seem that it wouldn’t have anything to do with counting in percentages, whatever that means. It would just be done in a way to make sure the desired winner got more actual votes. 

    • #65
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I’m advocating they report the votes at 33, or 34, whichever is the actual number.

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Yarob (View Comment):
    They don’t count votes using ratios, they report them using ratios (a percentage is a ratio with respect to 100), and because nobody is interested in reading results accurate to the nth decimal place and because some decimal fractions repeat endlessly and cannot be represented without rounding or truncation, this is a perfectly acceptable way of doing it.

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?

    This is what I didn’t really understand about SA’s main post. How do we know they count votes using ratios? Just because they report them that way, or is there another reason? For every election, including 2020, the results are reported in both percentages and integers.

    That is my confusion as well. For example here are the official results of the 2020 election in California, note that for every race there are exact vote counts as well as (presumably rounded) percentages. Biden got exactly 11,110,639 votes, or approximately 63.5% of the total.

    That’s exactly right. I don’t know whether SA is saying that the mere reporting of the results in percentages is evidence of a deeper problem (it isn’t), or whether he’s saying that there’s reason to believe the machines, as they tabulate the votes, are rounding the actual results away from the true results.

    If there was intentional fraud, it would seem that it wouldn’t have anything to do with counting in percentages, whatever that means. It would just be done in a way to make sure the desired winner got more actual votes.

    It could be part of how cheating happens, or so I’ve found–at least that possibility (analyzed in the big post).  But it’s not evidence of cheating in and of itself. What’s wrong with it is at least this much:
    –it creates reports that are inaccurate at some level;
    –it is, in and of itself, weird and ridiculous either to count or to report votes using anything other than middle-school arithmetic;
    –and it breeds massive distrust.

    • #66
  7. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    W Bob (View Comment):
    There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted.

    Before you can prosecute, you need suspects.  Have we identified any suspects yet?

     

    • #67
  8. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Make election fraud a death penalty offense, and enforce it, and watch the problem disappear. Some criminals don’t fear risking death. But the kind of criminals who do this kind of stuff aren’t in that category. Election fraud is overthrowing the government anyway, so why shouldn’t it be a capital offense?

    It’s a winning proposal. Make the opposition argue against it. What argument would they make? Just a general anti death penalty argument? Ok, but then they would feel pressure to at least support much more serious penalties than we now have.

    You’re assuming there’s an “opposition” who wants to get rid of election fraud.

    I believe there are too many people benefiting from unsecure elections – on both sides of the aisle.

    Well, just imagine a presidential debate where the Republican supports treating election fraud as a capital offense. The Dem would argue against it, but what would he or she say about why it shouldn’t be a capital offense? If you game that scenario out, the Dem will look like he supports voter fraud. If he says he’s against the death penalty in principle, would he support the next most serious punishment, say life in prison? Make them take a position. Propose legislation. Force a vote. There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted. That’s needs to end.

    Given the opportunity, I’d definitely vote for that candidate. 

    But what could the presidential candidate do about it? Voting is a local issue.

    I’ve been voting since 1976 and I’m convinced I’ve never voted in a “fraud-free election”. Hell, we all know that JFK didn’t “win” and that was in 1960. (At least Old Joe bought that election with his own money)

    • #68
  9. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    –it is, in and of itself, weird and ridiculous either to count or to report votes using anything other than middle-school arithmetic;

    I thought calculating percentages was middle-school arithmetic.

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted.

    Before you can prosecute, you need suspects. Have we identified any suspects yet?

    I have no clear idea of any answer to that with any putative hacked voting machines.

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia.  (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    • #70
  11. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    –it is, in and of itself, weird and ridiculous either to count or to report votes using anything other than middle-school arithmetic;

    I thought calculating percentages was middle-school arithmetic.

    Elementary school, then.

    • #71
  12. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Make election fraud a death penalty offense, and enforce it, and watch the problem disappear. Some criminals don’t fear risking death. But the kind of criminals who do this kind of stuff aren’t in that category. Election fraud is overthrowing the government anyway, so why shouldn’t it be a capital offense?

    It’s a winning proposal. Make the opposition argue against it. What argument would they make? Just a general anti death penalty argument? Ok, but then they would feel pressure to at least support much more serious penalties than we now have.

    I would assume the would be a federal law? How would this work based on the fact that all presidential elections are done at the state level. I fear this would nationalize our election process which I think would be worse.

    • #72
  13. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    Annefy (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Make election fraud a death penalty offense, and enforce it, and watch the problem disappear. Some criminals don’t fear risking death. But the kind of criminals who do this kind of stuff aren’t in that category. Election fraud is overthrowing the government anyway, so why shouldn’t it be a capital offense?

    It’s a winning proposal. Make the opposition argue against it. What argument would they make? Just a general anti death penalty argument? Ok, but then they would feel pressure to at least support much more serious penalties than we now have.

    You’re assuming there’s an “opposition” who wants to get rid of election fraud.

    I believe there are too many people benefiting from unsecure elections – on both sides of the aisle.

    Well, just imagine a presidential debate where the Republican supports treating election fraud as a capital offense. The Dem would argue against it, but what would he or she say about why it shouldn’t be a capital offense? If you game that scenario out, the Dem will look like he supports voter fraud. If he says he’s against the death penalty in principle, would he support the next most serious punishment, say life in prison? Make them take a position. Propose legislation. Force a vote. There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted. That’s needs to end.

    Given the opportunity, I’d definitely vote for that candidate.

    But what could the presidential candidate do about it? Voting is a local issue.

    I’ve been voting since 1976 and I’m convinced I’ve never voted in a “fraud-free election”. Hell, we all know that JFK didn’t “win” and that was in 1960. (At least Old Joe bought that election with his own money)

    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election. Or at least very serious penalties. That would force the issue and everyone would have to take a position. If it’s determined not to be a federal prerogative, then do it state by state. 

    • #73
  14. DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Yarob (View Comment):
    Another reason not to credit the claims of 2020 election deniers is that in the more than three years since then, and despite all the money and fame that would come their way for doing so (perhaps with some time in a cozy federal facility for white-collar criminals), not a single person has come forward to blow the whistle on the conspiracy

    This is patently false.

    Many, many whistleblowers have come forward.

    • #74
  15. DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Yarob (View Comment):

    Neither am I comparing him to 9/11 Truthers, . . .

    You did. Right here:

    “For the same reason, we know that 9/11 wasn’t an inside job.”

     

    • #75
  16. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It would be refreshing if you were capable of actually addressing the information laid out.

    Bryan,

    This is a personal attack.  Personal attacks are a violation of the Ricochet Code of Conduct.

    Please delete it.

    Cheers,

    Mark

    • #76
  17. Yarob Coolidge
    Yarob
    @Yarob

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It would be refreshing if you were capable of actually addressing the information laid out.

    Bryan,

    This is a personal attack. Personal attacks are a violation of the Ricochet Code of Conduct.

    Please delete it.

    Cheers,

    Mark

    There are several similar comments in this thread, insults directed at me personally, and not for the first time.

    From past comments accusing me of being the pseudonymous reincarnation of an apparently notorious ex-subscriber and Trump sceptic, I gather that more than one mainstream conservative has been driven from Ricochet by the massed forces of uncivil Trump enthusiasts and election conspiracy theorists. Sad, but I am made of sterner stuff and will continue to subscribe and contribute to the enlightenment and education of all through my posts and comments. Enjoy!

    • #77
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted.

    Before you can prosecute, you need suspects. Have we identified any suspects yet?

    I have no clear idea of any answer to that with any putative hacked voting machines.

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    If those were ballots cast by actual people, then yes.  The bigger problem is likely to be the ballots that essentially appear from nowhere.

    • #78
  19. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia.  (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    • #79
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    Presumably, if they knew that they faced a possible death penalty, they wouldn’t have done it.

    • #80
  21. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted.

    Before you can prosecute, you need suspects. Have we identified any suspects yet?

    I have no clear idea of any answer to that with any putative hacked voting machines.

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    If those were ballots cast by actual people, then yes. The bigger problem is likely to be the ballots that essentially appear from nowhere.

    Which circles back to my point that, if you want to prosecute someone for dumping fraudulent ballots into the system, we need to start by identifying suspects.  Got any names in mind?

    • #81
  22. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    Presumably, if they knew that they faced a possible death penalty, they wouldn’t have done it.

    I’d be willing to bet most of them didn’t even know it was a crime.

    • #82
  23. Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    No, not death.  Pain, perhaps.  Or just the stocks.

    • #83
  24. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    No, not death. Pain, perhaps. Or just the stocks.

    • #84
  25. Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    No, not death. Pain, perhaps. Or just the stocks.

    Yes!  Unendurable comfort.

    • #85
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    There’s a sense that voter fraud is a crime that’s never prosecuted.

    Before you can prosecute, you need suspects. Have we identified any suspects yet?

    I have no clear idea of any answer to that with any putative hacked voting machines.

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    If those were ballots cast by actual people, then yes. The bigger problem is likely to be the ballots that essentially appear from nowhere.

    Which circles back to my point that, if you want to prosecute someone for dumping fraudulent ballots into the system, we need to start by identifying suspects. Got any names in mind?

    I don’t, but there’s video of people dumping ballots.  Let the FBI identify them, they seem to get excited about that.

    • #86
  27. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    Presumably, if they knew that they faced a possible death penalty, they wouldn’t have done it.

    I’d be willing to bet most of them didn’t even know it was a crime.

    They couldn’t face a death penalty now anyway, because that would be ex post facto and hence unconstitutional.  But they could have plenty of warning for the next election.

    • #87
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    No, not death. Pain, perhaps. Or just the stocks.

    Yes! Unendurable comfort.

    The Soft Cushions were first.

    • #88
  29. Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Lower Order Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Globalitarian Lower Order Misa… (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    A federal law could be proposed enacting a capital offense for any fraud in a federal election.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But there are plenty of places to start, like the 50k people who illegally voted outside their own counties in Georgia. (See above, “Intro to Eight;” not technically fraud, but illegal.)

    So would these 50,000 Georgians be facing the death penalty under this proposal?

    No, not death. Pain, perhaps. Or just the stocks.

    Yes! Unendurable comfort.

    The Soft Cushions were first.

    Mm.  I would do anything for soft cushions.  Robbing a bank is just one of them.

    • #89
  30. DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Lower Order Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Belief in the legitimacy of the 2020 elections is on the same level as believing the earth is flat.

    • #90
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