Confession

 

Donald Trump has been a leading figure in my life for the last eight years.

I have learned so much during this time that I now think I should confess that I was totally unprepared to learn these things because what is happening to America I never imagined could take place.

Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

I have learned more since Donald Trump became a major political figure than in all of my 75 years prior to that. America is not even close to the country to which I have pledged allegiance all my life.

We are divided, as much of the world is, largely by what we believe as individuals, mostly into two groups, secular humanists (those who have no belief in anything beyond the biological human) and those who believe in a creator and an eternal human soul.

I’m looking for arguments against what I am confessing that I have learned recently.

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  1. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    I don’t disagree at all.  But I see two different progressive or globalist groups, and these two groups see the world completely differently: one being the movers and shakers and those they bought off, who know the real deal — and the other being the gullible who are true believers and the vindictive who are clueless.

    • #1
  2. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country.  That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc.  I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    • #2
  3. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    • #3
  4. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh.  People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied.  They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    • #4
  5. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I have seen people in all walks of life, some overcome conditions that make life difficult, some don’t. The fact is that all my life I have seen people emigrate to America from all over the world. Very few of these people have I encountered who complained about what they found life to be here. I have not thought the same view to emigrate to other places existed, but I don’t know. My life was wretched at one time but I worked on that. I can see why you can’t explain my not noticing the people who think this is a wretched country but I cannot tell if you think their assessment is correct.

    • #5
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh. People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied. They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    Are these people ever going to count then?

    • #6
  7. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh. People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied. They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    Are these people ever going to count then?

    Count how?  Apparently they vote.

    • #7
  8. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh. People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied. They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    Are these people ever going to count then?

    Count how? Apparently they vote.

    Until the Davos contingent figures out what to do with those not needed.

    • #8
  9. Chris O Coolidge
    Chris O
    @ChrisO

    Hey, Bob. I certainly won’t fault you for it. There are plenty of people who were unaware of this, that, or the other FBI thing. 

    For example, we had some friends move out to California, oh, about twelve years ago. They were true believers. In fact, I mentioned here that the man of the house cried in a video he posted on Facebook when Trump was elected. They bought into it all.

    Then, much more recently, one of their daughters was injured by something the state more or less told them they had to get and that it would be safe. Well, they sort of required it. You know, their movement would be pretty limited and I think their kids couldn’t go to school (when their district finally let kids go to school), but they still, technically, had a choice whether to get this thing. 

    Mugged by their reality, those true believers moved to Florida, where they support their new governor, eh, pretty close to 100%. The lies didn’t hold up and now those folks are solidly in our column.

    Anyway, we choose our realities and it makes things pretty interesting. I’ve seen leftists referring to “the others” and other, more belittling descriptions. They certainly have a reality all their own as well, and they are fighting a war against evil. We’re all just waking up to the stakes on this as well as how far things have gone.

     

    • #9
  10. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    The Obamas tapped into a hatred of America. Barry spent his young years in Indonesia not learning American history. He then came home to communist family and friends to be taught to hate America. 

    His wife said the first time that she was proud to be an American was when Barry was nominated. Probably hyperbole but points to her idea of America. Barry promised to fundamentally transform the country a few days before election day. He tried and with Biden installed as his third term, the destruction continues. 

    There’s a reason Make America Great Again resonated. Other candidates had used it before but it didn’t come to be attached to them. Reagan is better known for It’s Morning Again. It stuck with Trump because of how much Obama destroyed. Biden attacks MAGA because he doesn’t want it great. 

    • #10
  11. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    The core principle guiding this group of communists is that no one has the right to enjoy their life until every single injustice is abolished.

    That was also the essential message of Boris Pasternak’s book “Dr Zhivago.” Yuri wanted a private life where he could practice medicine, work on being a better father and husband, and create beautiful poetry.

    But celebrating one’s own life was in direct conflict with furthering the goals of Trotsky and Lenin.

    In one of the book’s more obscure lessons, Yuri is not allowed to practice medicine due to falling out of favor with The Party. Then he is reduced to doing menial work for a more well respected member of the The Party. While Yuri empties the trash, his employer is sitting and reading a book of the good doctor’s poetry, never realizing that his house cleaner is this poet.

    Our American version of Communism will add even more requirements to each citizen’s joyous attempts to reduce all adversity for people of color, to spend time every two years in the “Get Out The Vote” movement, to comply with all dictates of the ever changing Medical Establishment, which probably will soon decree annual COV vaccines for every American. Also coming soon: the glorious requirement of sending one’s grown children off to compassionately serve in the Glorious Army of Neo Nazis fighting in Ukraine which will add to each citizen’s pride.

    In one’s spare time, each of us will hopefully help Bill Gates achieve his goal of zero CO2 emissions. If we all work hard enough, we will have the cleanest, most climate-free green earth ever envisioned by mortal humans.

    • #11
  12. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh. People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied. They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    Those people are most likely people who have never lived in, or even visited, other countries. They are comparing the United States of America with Utopia.

    • #12
  13. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Once again, from back when Jonah was capable of making some sense:

     

    https://www.adrive.com/public/b667dv/Remnant%20with%20Jonah%20Goldberg%2003-15-18%20clips%20Hillary's%20Pillory%2C%20Lamb's%20Slaughter.mp3

    • #13
  14. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Once again, from back when Jonah was capable of making some sense:

     

    https://www.adrive.com/public/b667dv/Remnant%20with%20Jonah%20Goldberg%2003-15-18%20clips%20Hillary's%20Pillory%2C%20Lamb's%20Slaughter.mp3

    get nothing there

    • #14
  15. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Once again, from back when Jonah was capable of making some sense:

     

    https://www.adrive.com/public/b667dv/Remnant%20with%20Jonah%20Goldberg%2003-15-18%20clips%20Hillary's%20Pillory%2C%20Lamb's%20Slaughter.mp3

    get nothing there

    It’s an mp3 audio download.  You may have to “right-click” and “save as…” or something.

    • #15
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I guess they are about to get things the way they want. Will they be satisfied?

    That literally made me laugh. People who think that America is a lousy country have such unrealistic expectations that they will never be satisfied. They will always think that some nefarious force is keeping them from the perfect life that they are entitled to.

    My parents lived through the Great Depression (and WWII).  I never got the sense that they felt entitled to anything.  And so we kids didn’t pick up on that.

    Do you think it’s possible that people who didn’t live through the Depression raised more entitled kids?

    • #16
  17. Ole Summers Member
    Ole Summers
    @OleSummers

    The world has always been divided by the secular and the spiritual and those on the scale in between. One is the differences between “times” is the developing culture in any one place. There are those who seek eternal principles that will take one thru the tests that this world has for us and those who somehow think we can figure it out on our own and control those things which we fear or which seem uncontrollable. 

    We had a culture unlike Europe that was based in Liberty that was rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic. We are at the end of a 100 plus year campaign to tear down and destroy that culture. It is very much alive as seen by the MAGA movement, the Tea Party, the Contact with America response and the Reagan administration which are pretty much all the same – and yes that includes Trump. But the campaign to destroy has grown stronger for all those years without a sincere or determined response from enough “establishment” types because, as is human nature, they dont want to endanger the comfort they enjoy without realizing its true source.

    • #17
  18. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Ole Summers (View Comment):

    The world has always been divided by the secular and the spiritual and those on the scale in between. One is the differences between “times” is the developing culture in any one place. There are those who seek eternal principles that will take one thru the tests that this world has for us and those who somehow think we can figure it out on our own and control those things which we fear or which seem uncontrollable.

    We had a culture unlike Europe that was based in Liberty that was rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic. We are at the end of a 100 plus year campaign to tear down and destroy that culture. It is very much alive as seen by the MAGA movement, the Tea Party, the Contact with America response and the Reagan administration which are pretty much all the same – and yes that includes Trump. But the campaign to destroy has grown stronger for all those years without a sincere or determined response from enough “establishment” types because, as is human nature, they dont want to endanger the comfort they enjoy without realizing its true source.

    This is true. Many of those who truly live wretched lives in America are not those who are trying to tear us down. Wretched lives and entitlement don’t have to go together. My sense is that the people most dangerous to America are the privileged class not those in a daily struggle. Example : all the medical professionals and institutions that joined lockstep with authoritarian government officials unconstitutional edicts during the pandemic.

    • #18
  19. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    I can see why you can’t explain my not noticing the people who think this is a wretched country but I cannot tell if you think their assessment is correct.

    I think the United States has been and continues to be the Land of Opportunity.  Sure, I could come up with a list of things that I wish were different.  I think better policies could allow us to be more free and more prosperous than we are.  But given the context of the real world and real history, I am very, very grateful to be an American in the 21st century.

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):
    Those people are most likely people who have never lived in, or even visited, other countries. They are comparing the United States of America with Utopia.

    Exactly.  Many people don’t have any clue what real oppression or real poverty is.

    • #19
  20. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Flicker (View Comment):

    My parents lived through the Great Depression (and WWII).  I never got the sense that they felt entitled to anything.  And so we kids didn’t pick up on that.

    Do you think it’s possible that people who didn’t live through the Depression raised more entitled kids?

    I don’t know.  Even within the same family, some kids might be optimistic and grateful for what they have while others grouse about the things they lack.

    • #20
  21. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Flicker (View Comment):

    I don’t disagree at all. But I see two different progressive or globalist groups, and these two groups see the world completely differently: one being the movers and shakers and those they bought off, who know the real deal — and the other being the gullible who are true believers and the vindictive who are clueless.

    Are you saying here that the globalists that I labeled as secular humanists in the OP are made up of the two groups you name?  Could you elaborate on your view of the two groups?

    @flicker

    • #21
  22. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Sorry, Bob, no arguments against.  Welcome to the dark pills.

    I resist going full black pill because that’s tactically useless.  It takes work.

    • #22
  23. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    BDB (View Comment):

    Sorry, Bob, no arguments against. Welcome to the dark pills.

    I resist going full black pill because that’s tactically useless. It takes work.

    I think I so love this American concept set forth by the founders that it is almost impossible for me to imagine  other views taking hold once exposed. I can see how it happens if that exposure is circumvented as has happened in our education process. I think that is what I missed all these years before Trump.

    • #23
  24. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Ole Summers (View Comment):

    The world has always been divided by the secular and the spiritual and those on the scale in between. One is the differences between “times” is the developing culture in any one place. There are those who seek eternal principles that will take one thru the tests that this world has for us and those who somehow think we can figure it out on our own and control those things which we fear or which seem uncontrollable.

    We had a culture unlike Europe that was based in Liberty that was rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic. We are at the end of a 100 plus year campaign to tear down and destroy that culture. It is very much alive as seen by the MAGA movement, the Tea Party, the Contact with America response and the Reagan administration which are pretty much all the same – and yes that includes Trump. But the campaign to destroy has grown stronger for all those years without a sincere or determined response from enough “establishment” types because, as is human nature, they dont want to endanger the comfort they enjoy without realizing its true source.

    I agree with this in part, and disagree in part.

    First, it’s not clear to me that the division of the world between the secular and spiritual has a long history.  I struggle to come up with a significant group or movement with an atheistic or secular world view before the beginning of the so-called Enlightenment.  It seems to me that in the more distant past — say pre-17th Century — all of the significant world views were religious, but the religions varied.

    Second, I’m not sure what you mean by “those on the scale in between” the secular and the spiritual.  I don’t think that there’s a middle ground between these two.

    Third, I don’t think that the important dividing line is between the spiritual and the secular.  As a Christian believer, I think that the dividing line is between those who follow Jesus, and those who do not.  This is what Jesus taught, as far as I can tell.  The people on the other side of that line come in many varieties — atheists of various types; a bewildering array of pagans (including followers of the mythologies of the Hindus, Norse, Greeks, Romans, and Aztecs, the Druids, the American Indian religions, and African animism); and monotheists such as Jews, Muslims, and Mormons.

    Fourth, I don’t think that our country was “rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic.”  I think that it was founded in Christianity, and specifically in Protestant Christianity.  This was a Christian nation.  It is no longer, and it’s ceasing to be a Christian nation coincided with the very “Judeo-Christian” terminology that you use.

    For some reason, which is strange to me, many professing Christians seem to make common cause with the Jews, while not doing so with Muslims or Mormons.  I suspect that this arises from a misplaced guilt about the Holocaust, and an erroneous belief that it was somehow the responsibility of Christian believers to protect Jews from pagan Nazis.  The pagan Nazis were awful, but we are not responsible for the horrors that they perpetrated.

    • #24
  25. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    [Deleted – erroneous repeat of my prior comment]

    • #25
  26. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Fourth, I don’t think that our country was “rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic.”  I think that it was founded in Christianity, and specifically in Protestant Christianity.  This was a Christian nation.  It is no longer, and it’s ceasing to be a Christian nation coincided with the very “Judeo-Christian” terminology that you use.

    Thomas Jefferson had a big part in developing the principles underpinning the founding of America. He did extensive research on “ancient principles” of governance, specifically the methods adopted by Moses after his early failures in establishing a government for the Israeli people, who were Jews, if I’m not mistaken. He also research the ancient principles used by those who came from Eastern Europe to England in the first millennium AD and were later called Anglo-Saxons. These people were also believed to be of Hebrew heritage.

    Jefferson incorporated these principles in his work related to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. It is legitimate to use Judeo/Christian in describing America’s founding ethic. @arizonapatriot

    • #26
  27. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Fourth, I don’t think that our country was “rooted in the Judeo/Christian ethic.” I think that it was founded in Christianity, and specifically in Protestant Christianity. This was a Christian nation. It is no longer, and it’s ceasing to be a Christian nation coincided with the very “Judeo-Christian” terminology that you use.

    Thomas Jefferson had a big part in developing the principles underpinning the founding of America. He did extensive research on “ancient principles” of governance, specifically the methods adopted by Moses after his early failures in establishing a government for the Israeli people, who were Jews, if I’m not mistaken. He also research the ancient principles used by those who came from Eastern Europe to England in the first millennium AD and were later called Anglo-Saxons. These people were also believed to be of Hebrew heritage.

    Jefferson incorporated these principles in his work related to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. It is legitimate to use Judeo/Christian in describing America’s founding ethic. @ arizonapatriot

    Jefferson had just about nothing to do with the Constitution.  He was not at the Convention, and I don’t think that he was in the United States at all from July 1784 until late 1789 (in or after September 1789).  During these years, he was principally in Paris, first as a minister plenipotentiary for negotiating treaties, and then as ambassador to France.

    I don’t think that the Constitution draws much from the Jewish civil government, such as it was, established in the Law of Moses.  There are indirect influences, as the Mosaic Law was influential on English Common Law, as a matter of underlying morality, but not as a matter of governmental form.

    I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention principles that “came from Eastern Europe to England.”  I don’t think that there were any significant contributions from Eastern Europe.  The English system had some Roman influences (though not many, at least not directly).  The English system was principally an amalgamation of the three series of conquests — the Anglo-Saxon, followed by the Danes (a partial conquest, and we’d probably call these people the “Vikings” today), followed by the Normans (who were French, mostly, though also with Viking influence).

    You are correct that the framers of the Constitution used examples of Republican government from the ancient world, principally Rome.  They cited the example of the Greeks, but generally in a negative way, as the non-monarchic Greeks (like the Athenians) tended to have a pure democracy, which our founders rejected.  There’s a reason that our Senate is called the Senate, which was the name of one of the major Roman legislative assemblies.  The Romans had a number of others such assemblies — we generally call them the Centuriate, Plebian, and Tribal assemblies.

    Going back to Jefferson — I haven’t looked into this issue in detail, but I recently heard a “National Conservative” hypothesis that Jefferson wasn’t considered very important until the early 20th Century, at which time his historical standing was elevated in the promotion of a progressive and libertarian agenda.  I think that this was from Yoram Hazony, though I’m not certain of this.  I’m also not convinced that it is correct, just that it is an interesting hypothesis.  In many ways, Jefferson’s views seem to have been at odds with many of the other important Founders, particularly in his religious skepticism, which he seems to have kept quiet.

    • #27
  28. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    Are you saying here that the globalists that I labeled as secular humanists in the OP are made up of the two groups you name?  Could you elaborate on your view of the two groups?

    I suppose so.  I’m referring more to “We [the US] are divided, as much of the world is, largely by what we believe as individuals, mostly into two groups…”  While I accept that this group presents as secular humanists, I’m not sure that they really are; that there isn’t a some spiritual aspect to their beliefs, whether pertinent to their positions or not — perhaps they feel they are doing the god of their own conception’s work through socialism.

    Anyway, what I was getting at was just as an aside, that this broad group has two components that have somewhat differing motivations, one that is fooled and one that is doing the fooling; those that are doing the fooling are divided into two groups, those who are paying for allegiance and and those who are being paid (or extorted).

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  29. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Jefferson had just about nothing to do with the Constitution.  He was not at the Convention, and I don’t think that he was in the United States at all from July 1784 until late 1789 (in or after September 1789).  During these years, he was principally in Paris, first as a minister plenipotentiary for negotiating treaties, and then as ambassador to France.

    Except for the first sentence the above is accurate. Jefferson was a forerunner to the founders who actually wrote the Constitution. Jefferson studied the law in great detail, even learning the language of the Anglo-Saxons in it ancient form so that he could study the law in its original form. When he was called on to work on the Declaration of Independence he had just finished drafting several different versions of the Virginia State Constitution. In 1779-1780 he served as Governor of Virginia and while there redrafted almost all of the state’s laws. He was a close friend of James Madison and had much influence and input to the drafting of the U.S. Constitution over the twenty year period prior to its adoption.

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  30. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson: Obviously, what is happening was outside my sphere of awareness because I thought most Americans thought more or less like me: that America was by far the greatest country to live in, that anyone born here was extremely blessed, and that one of our missions as Americans was to spread the word about freedom to the world.

    I am 56 years old and have been aware since I was a teenager that there were millions of Americans who believed this is a wretched country. That the taxpayers were too stingy, that this or that racial group had unfair advantages, that we have too many guns, that women were oppressed, that capitalism was a scam to keep the working man down, etc. I don’t have a theory to explain how you never noticed this broad lack of gratitude until eight years ago.

    I have seen people in all walks of life, some overcome conditions that make life difficult, some don’t. The fact is that all my life I have seen people emigrate to America from all over the world. Very few of these people have I encountered who complained about what they found life to be here. I have not thought the same view to emigrate to other places existed, but I don’t know. My life was wretched at one time but I worked on that. I can see why you can’t explain my not noticing the people who think this is a wretched country but I cannot tell if you think their assessment is correct.

    There are small, but significant, groups of ungrateful immigrants.  You usually spot them occupying key faculty and administrative positions in our colleges and universities.  A few even get elected to Congress.  

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