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The Litmus Test for Friendship
In the past few years, I have recognized that I cannot talk openly about politics or religion with people who I want to become friends with. I think this has become the most pervasively evil aspect of identity politics and woke ideology.
Politics and religion used to be taboo topics for polite conversation but now your opinions on these two areas of thought determine if you are even worthy of being in the conversation. I am 72 years old, and a large majority of the people I socialize with are people I want to become new friends with. We play linguistic games to try to guess the political persuasions we might share but this is fraught with misconception. I have plenty of old friends but they are scattered much too far apart. The topics of conversation available for developing new friendships with the people I meet has become vanishingly small.
This has made growing old sadder and much more difficult.
Published in General
In addition, not everyone thinks politics is the most important topic in the world. Some people may lean one way or the other, but do not obsess over it so much that they would not associate with someone who votes differently than they do.
Jerry, I’m genuinely curious. Going about your day (gas station, Starbucks, work, client meetings, happy hour, church group, neighbor chats, Ricochet, gym, etc.), it is obviously true that you will have dozens of interactions with people who disagree with you about nearly everything. How do you manage this calmly and politely if they are “horrid“?
EDIT: @randyweivoda said it better in comment #29.
YES! An excellent observation. This is also true of 30 Rock.
A Beatles deep pull! As if I didn’t already hold you in the highest esteem.
Charlotte, you look way too young to speak of exhaustion. I think I grew up fairly far out on the autism spectrum, so friendship has always been a difficult concept to comprehend. Strangely, the older I get, the more important relationships become. Most people work the hardest on their friendships early in life. You will find out that you need them the most the older you get.
When Linda & I are back in town you can come by and have meal and a “vent” day.
To be honest, this is nothing new. There is an old adage to not talk politics with people.
He’s right, though, that it’s way worse now.
Yes, it started under 0bama. In the late 90s I really knew — took for granted — that the battle against white/black racism was 85-95% won — won meaning eradicated in the recesses of American minds. Sure there was still soft racism but that was tolerable; what I personally call “institutional, government-sponsored racism’ — official categorization and separate-but-inequal treatment (federal welfare and inner-city democratic plundering, for examples).
Now it’s in a way worse that in the early 60s, as I remember them. It’s less cultural and knee-jerk as it is philosophically formulaic dogma that must be followed — by everyone. Of course, this is all the work of rarely-named and poorly-known individuals who want to level the playing field as low as possible for everyone but themselves (kale cooked with crickets, anyone?).
But the plundering continues.
“Co-workers, my friends, today we are holding a ballpeen party.”
I grew up in a household where my parents, while both Democrats, differed greatly on politics. My dad was much more conservative than my Mom who said that no Hispanic could ever be a Republican (and two of her sons are…well, conservatives at least). For them (one taught high school, the other college), any position was allowed as long as you could defend it and your reasons for holding it. Politics and religion were often topics of conversation because we were a family of historians and the two are intertwined.
When I started dating my wife in college, her family was solidly conservative and Republican (they were born in W. Virginia and raised across the border in KY). I was a much more liberal person. It lead to some real hum dingers of discussions, which was all they were to me…discussions. It bothered by girlfriend at the time, and her Mom that I would hold such views. Over the years, I moved to the right, further than them in many ways, and after 2001 by wife started to move to the left, much further than I was to start with. To say that we are polar opposites in many ways would not be wrong. She doesn’t completely buy into the progressive woke-ism in all areas, but in some (anti-racism being a big one, she does). It has lead to some real arguments (not discussions anymore), as she sees support of Trump and now any Republican as bad, bordering on either stupidity or evil. Doesn’t make me love her less, and I try to always understand her point of view and why she feels the way she does.
(Cont)
Which, in the end, is the point. If we don’t want politics to rule everything, you have to allow others to hold differing views, even if they don’t allow you the same courtesy. It isn’t “fair”, but it is how a civilized person functions. If a person turns ever discussion to politics, then you have a few options.
One is to not engage them and steer the conversation back to a non-political issues. I do that in the role playing groups that I belong to. One of them (a live action group) is extremely progressive in its views and the vast majority of the players think that Elizabeth Warren is way too conservative to be allowed to have power (hyperbole, but to give you an idea). Some of them are not just supporters of AntiFa, but I suspect members. But we have something in common, playing our games. If, when out of character at a game, they go off on a political discussion I either ignore it, or leave. They don’t want to hear my views and when I did happen to have an on-line conversation with one of them, they wanted me booted from my officer position because I was conservative and they “had thought I was a decent person before learning that”. Amazingly, most of the rest of the group came to my defense and the other person got told to change their attitude or leave. They left.
Another is to not be their friend. I don’t like that option, but one has to protect oneself. If you have things in common, focus on that, but if you don’t…then its hard. I ask myself, why do I want to talk politics with that person? I have a ton of people that I consider close friends, but I don’t interact with them on the internet because they are different people there. face to face we can have a conversation, but not online. If they don’t respect my views…or at least allow me to hold them without denigrating me, then we can’t really be friends, but we, usually, have been friends for a long time before politics intruded.
(Cont 2)
Lastly, you can engage with them politely and in a face to face setting while setting up ground rules for discussion. If the person cannot do that, then you either cannot talk with them on those topics or cannot be their friend, but I’ve found that those conversations can happen and can be very stimulating and thought provoking. Many years ago I was in New Jersey for work and walking back to the hotel after dinner I ran into a young woman (early 20s) who was getting signatures for a petition on voter ID. We had about a 10 minute talk and I listened to her points first, and let her talk and then asked questions, not attacks, but questions and looked for areas that we agreed. We never fully agreed, but both left having gained something. That isn’t easy, but nothing truly valuable is easy.
I hope this helps a bit. I have found that, much like the Hymn “Make Me a Channel of Your Peace”
If we first strive to understand the other person before we make ourselves understood, then we stand a much better chance of getting that chance. So much of what is difficult in our current times is that people are angry and upset, and want to speak their minds and no one is there to listen because the other person just wants to say their piece. So we end up in ideological bubbles where we all agree just to feel like we belong and it makes it worse. We do need to listen to those we disagree with to hear their view. Sometimes they just need to vent and unload and that can lead to them listening to you…but honestly, being a friend means listening to other people’s problems…and if we aren’t willing to do that, are we being a good friend?
I work at a newspaper office, and have no qualms about saying exactly what I think about things, out loud. Then again, there’s no one there, because everyone’s working from home. But for years my positions have not been an impediment to collegiality, with the exception of a couple of people who were real pills, as my mother would say. It was a pleasure to irritate them simply by existing. Other conversations consist of breaking each other’s CoCs in the time-honored fashion:
“Hey, I see your guy Trump’s selling secrets to Putin.”
“And the price is higher thanks to your dude’s inflationary policies.”
After the pre-season Vikings game today we went outside and argued, as usual. We’re on the same side of the political divide but of course that means internecine spats of varying degrees of intensity. I enjoy them. Everyone gets het up and intense and civility frays when it comes to taking turns or interrupting or derailing, and then eventually someone has to go, it breaks up, we shake hands, talk about the next time we meet, joke, insult, and part as deep, long friends.
So even if you do find a new friend who agrees, dig deeper; there’s always something to argue about.
I recommend the opposite approach. To me, excessive IN YOUR FACE political expression is the problem and adding to it isn’t going to help. At some point the Bernie bro and the Maga hat are just being confrontational for confrontation’s sake.
That is sad man. I think friendships should mostly be based on a person’s character and personality, definitely not on political opinions. It can be eye opening to people on both sides of the political spectrum if they have an epiphany moment of “oh wow I didn’t know he was a “R” or “D”. I guess they all aren’t bad.”
I’m not certain it’s the case but it does seem like many people are much more certain they are absolutely correct on everything so it’s harder to have the realization that other people you like may disagree?
Don’t you think it’s because now more than every EVERYTHING is political? Seems that way to me.
When I was a kid, I had blissfully apolitical friendships. That world is dead and gone.
I’m in my 20s, and I distrust everyone I meet. The more interesting, thoughtful, educated, or intelligent, the stronger the distrust. Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I assume I’m talking to a nut. Oh, sure, I can have civil relationships with people who disagree with me, but friendship is off the table.
1000%
My standard response when someone is regaling me with their (unwanted/uninvited/off-topic/out of context) political opinions is, “Fortunately there’s more to life than politics.”
Yup. We need more politics-free zones.
Just be yourself. Enjoy a meal, a laugh, common interests and don’t worry about it. People will connect on those things alone naturally. You can still offer a thought that may be counter to what is brought up, or if something is said that you find offensive, say what you think. This is the more important part – not whether they will still like you.
You might be surprised. My old next door neighbors were very liberal, and we became good friends and are still friends. She would invite me over for a glass of wine and no conversation was off the table. This is what will save our country – finding the middle and older people are the example to the younger set.
That seems naive. These are not normal times. We are living through an advanced stage of a communist takeover. Being friends with a communist supporting (and that’s what democrats are now) may be possible and a good idea, but it will not save our country. It will be a rare exception to the norm.
I agree. I’ve heard too many smart people like Lee Smith and Victor Davis Hanson say that the last thing you want to do is create any level of chaos anywhere. It just helps the left. Don’t even ever raise your voice on anything. Make sure you know what you are talking about in a political discussion and don’t raise your voice. My personal opinion is try to stick to public policy. The rest of it gets vague, really fast.
LOL I love this.
I don’t even like talking politics with people I agree with. Subject comes up, I shut down.
But then, it’s not much of a problem because I have no friends anyway.
The problem is, nobody in power on the left is like Lloyd Benson,Scoop Jackson, or Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Some people wish for that, but that’s not the way it is. I think this path might open after the bond market collapses.
In related news, they almost got rid of Ilhan Omar in the primary. It was one percentage point. She pulled out all the stops like she never has before.
Staying in your bubble and not engaging anyone you don’t agree with because they are commies won’t save the country either will it? If saving the country is the goal, then engaging with people on the other side seems critical.
I look at it a different way.
This isn’t just a fight about a political system. It’s a religious fight — a fight between groups who hold incompatible visions of the good life. I want to live a certain kind of life, and I want my children to live the same kind of life. I want this because I regard this kind of life as good. Well, the current political order has become a threat to this pursuit. The American Dream looks more and more unattainable.
If we were all atomized individuals with beliefs set in stone, it would be easy to get along. But this isn’t how the world works. Contrary to what the experts say, it isn’t difference that causes people to hate each other; it’s competition. Politics is dynamic. It’s a matter of proselytizing. Everyone is trying to convert everyone else. Most importantly, everyone is trying to shape the next generation.
Dissenting from the official moral-political orthodoxy in America in 2022 is a little like being a Byzantine Christian in the time after the Muslim conquest — except that the conquerors aren’t foreign invaders, but rather our own peers and neighbors. Why should I accept their offer of dhimmitude? I’m allowed to do what I want in private, they say, but in public, I must toe the ideological line. Oh, and my children will join their ranks and spit on my grave. Resistance is futile. Yet they wonder why people like me are so p-ed off.
Mere exercises of political power won’t solve our problems. Politicians are clowns (and yes, this includes the Trumpy ones). Voting is useless except as a signal: that there are still some people in the country who don’t want what the new elite is selling.
Well, if you lived near me, I suspect we would hang out…but Wisconsin…LOL. I find that many discussions with people that I DO agree with can be more contentious at times. I mean, look at any discussion in re Trump on Ricochet?