Should We Move On from 2020?

 

Move Along GIF - Move Along Stormtrooper - Discover & Share GIFsSome of us are still talking about the 2020 election.  Some people dare to think–brace yourselves, now–that the election was not entirely ok.  Some of them might even dare to think that certain illegalities might have flipped swing states.  (Gasp!)  Some people even think that the election was rigged or stolen.  (Double gasp!)

But why don’t we just move on?  Why are so many Republicans voting for candidates who think the 2020 election was stolen?  Why do we keep trying to relitigate 2020?  Allow me to explain.

No one I know of is trying to relitigate 2020.  Maybe I’ve missed something, but this looks to me like a misunderstanding–perhaps a cavil, a canard, or a straw man.  All we’re trying to do is: (1) know what happened and (2) reform, as needed, our elections.

Knowing what happened is a good reason to keep talking about it at least until we do know. Knowing is reason enough.

Reform is a better reason. Can knowledge ever be complete if it is not put into action?

But, you ask, why don’t we just move on?  Why don’t we just fix the problems we have now, and forget about 2020?  Why talk about our problems with the election instead of just talking about inflation, Afghanistan, Ukraine, and everything else?

What Does It Mean To Move On?

Suppose a couple of college roommates start doing a lot of drugs together. One day they both take too much and go into comas. Someone finds them in time, and they get rushed to the hospital, where they barely survive.

Afterward, one guy flushes all his drugs and joins a 12-step program.  The other guy goes back to doing the same drugs, about as much as before.  His friends and family remind him what happened, but, as he reminds them in turn, his hospital adventure is in the past.  He just wants to move on, he says.

Now I ask you: Which of the two really wanted to move on?

If something bad happened in the past, if the problem that caused it is still there, and if you aren’t addressing that problem, then you aren’t really moving on.

I think that’s where most people are who are worried about the security of American elections and are still talking about what happened in 2020.  We’re not saying Biden isn’t the President.  But moving on doesn’t mean not talking about 2020 or ignoring the fact that we have recently had at least one very insecure, very consequential national election in the United States of America.

And We Do Have a Problem

Since the week of the election, I’ve been keeping a list of claims made about election cheating.  (Below, in the first comment on this post, are some links to my work.)  I’ve been trying to sort the claims by category, by whether they’ve been critically scrutinized, and by whether they’ve survived critical scrutiny.  I’ve been evaluating claims where I can.  Claims that have survived some critical scrutiny and which are, as far as I can tell, more likely than not indicate illegally cast or counted votes numbering more than double the Biden margin of victory in five swing states.  Some of the relevant claims have actually been verified–affecting three swing states.  In two of those states, the claims have been verified in court.

Not every category of votes illegally cast or counted is a category of fraudulent votes, and not every category is a category of specifically Biden votes. But some are Biden votes, some are fraudulent, and the non-fraudulent ones tend to enable fraud.  It’s much more likely than not that these illegalities flipped most or all of these five swing states, but the mere fact that illegalities occurred at this level is, all by itself, a national disgrace five times over.

So we have a real problem with election integrity in America.

That’s all without even looking at the fancier allegation–the ones about electronic illegality.  We’re not ok on the electronic side of things either.  Three words: “VVSG 2.0 standards.”

Yes, Let’s Move On!

Monty Python And The Holy Grail Get On With It GIFs | TenorMoving on from the 2020 election means learning what actually happened in that election as much as we can; and, above all, it means fixing the problem.  That means cutting back on Big Tech’s ability to shift elections; it means more state prosecution of election lawbreaking; it means a lot less mail-in voting; it means more voter ID laws; it means updating the voter rolls; and it means VVSG 2.0 standards in 50 states.

The Biden administration is dreadful, the problems of 2022 are screaming to be fixed, and I have a limited supply of time and brain cells. Yes, let’s move on from the 2020 election. Please. But let’s do it properly.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    “Keeping Track of Election Fraud Allegations” is the foundation of my research into the 2020 election (available off-Ricochet here in a Microsoft Word version).

    “Some Evidence that Illegal Actions Flipped Swing States” is a more detailed look at some of the numbers and at the evidence that these illegalities flipped swing states (available off-Ricochet here in a Microsoft Word version).

    “G. K. Chesterton’s Take on Electronic Voting Machines,” without even looking at 2020 specifically, introduces the need for better security in election technology (available off-Ricochet here in a Microsoft Word version).

    Inchallah GIF - Inchallah Inshallah - Discover & Share GIFsThe “Keeping Track” document is big and hard to read–and it’s a work in progress.  Until I finish it and make it easier to read–inshallah, inshallah–the five posts below are recommend as introductions to a number of the more interesting aspects of the 2020 election.

    • #1
  2. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    We have to and we have. But an election should tell us what direction the country wants to go in, and we didn’t get that. So even if we move on from the election, the issues will remain radioactive because we didn’t vote for the actions the present government is taking. That is acutely frustrating. 

    You’ve written a great post. Thank you. 

    • #2
  3. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    I admire and recommend St. Augustine’s tireless detective work about the 2020 elections. If you don’t believe the election was stolen–and sorry, folks, I don’t–he comes closer to convincing me than anything else I’ve read. 

    • #3
  4. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    I admire and recommend St. Augustine’s tireless detective work about the 2020 elections. If you don’t believe the election was stolen–and sorry, folks, I don’t–he comes closer to convincing me than anything else I’ve read.

    On the contrary, I am super tired.

    Now what does “stolen” mean in this context?

    • #4
  5. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either. 

    • #5
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    • #6
  7. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable. 

    • #7
  8. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Saint Augustine: Why don’t we just fix the problems we have now, and forget about 2020?  Why talk about our problems with the election instead of just talking about inflation, Afghanistan, Ukraine, and everything else?

    Because election fraud is the very cause of those problems.

    And even if you could fix those problems, you’d still be left with doubled gas prices, a weaponized FBI, weaponized IRS, Covid, the recession, low labor participation, rampant crime, broken supply chain, etc.

     

    Saint Augustine: Moving on from the 2020 election means learning what actually happened in that election as much as we can; and, above all, it means fixing the problem.

    No it doesn’t, as nobody is actually fixing the problem.

    Moving on means that nobody is going to be tried for treason.

     

    • #8
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    • #9
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    namlliT noD (View Comment):
    No it doesn’t, as nobody is actually fixing the problem.

    Right. Which is why we are not yet capable of moving on.

    Not that there aren’t any law changes here or there that are doing some good.

    • #10
  11. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    “Keeping Track of Election Fraud Allegations” is the foundation of my research into the 2020 election

    It’s a lot of work, and I appreciate that.  

    But I totally disagree with the approach.

    The writeup seems to place a high value on impartiality.  Which is a virtue in many situations.  But here it means that a posting from factcheck.org is given the same weight as a serious allegation.  Not good.

    • #11
  12. Vince Guerra Member
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    There is zero evidence that Biden got 76 million votes much less 86, zero. Every attempt to verify any of his vote totals has been ignored or blocked by courts or hostile forces in the states in question.  Your conclusion is not based on facts, logic, or data, it’s taken on faith from proven liars. 

    Anyone who still claims that the election wasn’t stolen has chosen to be willfully ignorant of the facts and the work of thousands of election and IT professionals, eye witnesses, legislators, investigators, cyber warfare analysts and over 4000 whistleblowers. 

    The best, most comprehensive breakdown. https://electionfraud20.org/

    • #12
  13. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):
    There is zero evidence that Biden got 76 million votes much less 86, zero. Every attempt to verify any of his vote totals has been ignored or blocked by courts or hostile forces in the states in question.  Your conclusion is not based on facts, logic, or data, it’s taken on faith from proven liars.

    Indeed.  (81 not 86, but yeah.)

    Biden winning 81 million votes is the exact equivalent of Orwell’s “2+2=5”.

    Do you really believe that an Alzheimers patient, with no accomplishments of any kind, and the brilliant campaign slogan of “No malarkey” could win 81 million votes?  Really?

    I think he got more like 41 million votes.

    • #13
  14. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise. 

    • #14
  15. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    “Keeping Track of Election Fraud Allegations” is the foundation of my research into the 2020 election

    It’s a lot of work, and I appreciate that.

    But I totally disagree with the approach.

    The writeup seems to place a high value on impartiality. Which is a virtue in many situations. But here it means that a posting from factcheck.org is given the same weight as a serious allegation. Not good.

    I don’t give anyone a lot of weight.  I care about the arguments made by FactCheck.org.

    • #15
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.”  Jolly good.  The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it.  Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally?  Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this?  No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state?  Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden?  No, it doesn’t mean that.

    • #16
  17. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory.  If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    • #17
  18. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution.  They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    • #18
  19. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state.  If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won.  But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    • #19
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state. If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    That is just what we cannot presume. These were mail-in ballots, and less secure.  More to the point, they were more convenient; it’s very likely that some portion of these voters would not have voted had they been limited to the legal methods.

    That is precisely illegal actions flipping a swing state.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won. But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    Precisely the same argument.

    • #20
  21. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state. If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    That is just what we cannot presume. These were mail-in ballots, and less secure. More to the point, they were more convenient; it’s very likely that some portion of these voters would not have voted had they been limited to the legal methods.

    That is precisely illegal actions flipping a swing state.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won. But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    Precisely the same argument.

    In that context yes, as I mentioned.  But it seems far more likely that the illegal unmonitored drop boxes etc, actually brought in a large number  of improper votes, from ineligible people, duplicates from some people, votes cast for people in nursing homes etc who didn’t vote themselves, and even entirely fictitious votes.  Which would mean that Pennsylvania DIDN’T actually vote for Biden.

    • #21
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state. If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    That is just what we cannot presume. These were mail-in ballots, and less secure. More to the point, they were more convenient; it’s very likely that some portion of these voters would not have voted had they been limited to the legal methods.

    That is precisely illegal actions flipping a swing state.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won. But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    Precisely the same argument.

    In that context yes, as I mentioned. But it seems far more likely that the illegal unmonitored drop boxes etc, actually brought in a large number of improper votes, from ineligible people, duplicates from some people, votes cast for people in nursing homes etc who didn’t vote themselves, and even entirely fictitious votes. Which would mean that Pennsylvania DIDN’T actually vote for Biden.

    Not at all unlikely!

    But you’re not addressing the bolded bit above.  Insofar as that is the problem, illegality affected the outcome and the state still voted for Biden.

    • #22
  23. kedavis Inactive
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state. If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    That is just what we cannot presume. These were mail-in ballots, and less secure. More to the point, they were more convenient; it’s very likely that some portion of these voters would not have voted had they been limited to the legal methods.

    That is precisely illegal actions flipping a swing state.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won. But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    Precisely the same argument.

    In that context yes, as I mentioned. But it seems far more likely that the illegal unmonitored drop boxes etc, actually brought in a large number of improper votes, from ineligible people, duplicates from some people, votes cast for people in nursing homes etc who didn’t vote themselves, and even entirely fictitious votes. Which would mean that Pennsylvania DIDN’T actually vote for Biden.

    Not at all unlikely!

    But you’re not addressing the bolded bit above. Insofar as that is the problem, illegality affected the outcome and the state still voted for Biden.

    Perhaps theoretically possible, but very unlikely.  Especially given what we’ve seen of people making repeated drops of armloads of ballots at these drop boxes in various places.

    • #23
  24. Chris Williamson Member
    Chris Williamson
    @ChrisWilliamson

    Yes, let’s walk away from the 2020 presidential election and look toward the state issues that are coming up.

    In Mollie Hemingway’s book “Rigged” — and I read just a few pages of it — she points out that Marc Elias worked election rules at the state level for the Democrats. Now comes Eric Holder’s challenge, according to Kimberly Strassel in the Wall Street Journal today. She says that the former attorney general for President Obama is working hard to overturn redistricting in Republican-controlled states by going to the courts in those states. If Republicans don’t watch out, state courts will change to be dominated by judges willing to declare Republican congressional districts as invalid.

    • #24
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    You have a flexible definition of “stolen.” Jolly good. The election was stolen then.

    But it matters a lot more how we phrase it. Consider the 1.1 million Biden votes in Pennsylvania which were cast in violation of the state Constitution according to the PA Commonwealth Court.

    Were those votes cast illegally? Yes.

    Should any voter have been prosecuted for this? No.

    Is this a case where illegal actions flipped a swing state? Most likely.

    But does that mean the state didn’t vote for Biden? No, it doesn’t mean that.

    Those last two lines seem contradictory. If Pennsylvania “voted for Biden” then illegal actions didn’t “flip” a swing state.

    A state law invited voters to vote in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution. They did, as a result giving Biden more votes than he would have gotten otherwise.

    That’s all.

    So those are illegal actions flipping a swing state (most likely).

    But nothing in that that I can see means PA didn’t vote for Biden.

    But if those people were legally allowed to vote – if they were all citizens etc, and they all cast just one vote each – but they just deposited their votes in ways that were technically illegal, then it wasn’t illegal actions that “flipped” a state. If, presumably, they would have voted properly – and mostly for Biden – if those illegal options hadn’t been made available.

    That is just what we cannot presume. These were mail-in ballots, and less secure. More to the point, they were more convenient; it’s very likely that some portion of these voters would not have voted had they been limited to the legal methods.

    That is precisely illegal actions flipping a swing state.

    I guess you could argue that if the illegal options hadn’t been available, a lot of people wouldn’t have bothered to vote at all, because it was too inconvenient or something; and if they were mostly/all voting for Biden, that means Trump would have won. But it doesn’t seem like quite the same argument.

    Precisely the same argument.

    In that context yes, as I mentioned. But it seems far more likely that the illegal unmonitored drop boxes etc, actually brought in a large number of improper votes, from ineligible people, duplicates from some people, votes cast for people in nursing homes etc who didn’t vote themselves, and even entirely fictitious votes. Which would mean that Pennsylvania DIDN’T actually vote for Biden.

    Not at all unlikely!

    But you’re not addressing the bolded bit above. Insofar as that is the problem, illegality affected the outcome and the state still voted for Biden.

    Perhaps theoretically possible, but very unlikely. Especially given what we’ve seen of people making repeated drops of armloads of ballots at these drop boxes in various places.

    Those problems can both have happened at the same time. Not unlikely.

    • #25
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t give anyone a lot of weight.  I care about the arguments made by FactCheck.org.

    Not to derail the discussion here, but a search engine led me to FactCheck.org the other day, and upon reading their “fact check” I learned that FactCheck.org confuses itself with MisleadingCheck.org.  

    • #26
  27. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Chris Williamson (View Comment):
    Yes, let’s walk away from the 2020 presidential election and look toward the state issues that are coming up.

    Why can’t we stay obsessed with the 2020 presidential election AND look forward to the state issues that are coming up?  

    A football player or baseball player has to pay attention to multiple things going on as well as things that have already happened in the game. Why should we do any less? 

    • #27
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t give anyone a lot of weight. I care about the arguments made by FactCheck.org.

    Not to derail the discussion here, but a search engine led me to FactCheck.org the other day, and upon reading their “fact check” I learned that FactCheck.org confuses itself with MisleadingCheck.org.

    I plan to do a post later titled “Who Fact-Checks the Fact-Checkers?”  I’d have to check my notes, but off the top of my head the fact-checkers twice employed straw-man fallacies against allegations of election insecurities.  Goofballs never took my logic class.

    • #28
  29. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Signature matching was just very carefully applied to the recall of the LA district attorney recall. No such effort was applied to all those mail in ballots in 2020. Efforts to do such after the fact have been blocked. Why?

    The answer is that “the right guy” won as far as the establishment is concerned and doing careful signature matches would call into question his legitimacy. 

    • #29
  30. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Stolen”, meaning enough votes to shift the election to Biden. No, I’m not claiming 2020 was “perfect”, just that it reflects the actual results. I’m not claiming that 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000 were “perfect” either.

    Specifically, enough illegally cast or counted votes specifically for Biden?

    I’ve not seen enough reason to believe that Biden’s vote margin in crucial electoral vote battlegrounds is fake. If I did, I’d believe that Trump won the election. You’re the most careful tracker out there. You’re believable. Many of the other sources aren’t scrupulous or believable.

    What does that mean, “fake”? Who said they were fake? And what, specifically, does “stolen” mean?

    Fake, illegitimate, stolen, fraudulent, illegal, misplaced, miscounted, however you choose to phrase it. It all means the same thing: that the country really voted for Trump but got Biden. Most of my friends on Ricochet believe that, and I’m not trying to convince them otherwise.

    Who won the 2000 election? George W Bush

    Who actually got the most votes in FL in 2000? George w Bush

    Who should have gotten the most votes?  Al Gore. Why?  Because of the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach that had people mistakenly vote for Buchanan instead of Gore. 

    • #30
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