Why I’m Grateful for Having Learned Structured Query Language, and Why You Should Learn It Too

 

There is a programming language called Structured Query Language. I happened to learn it back in the early 1990s because of work.

(It just occurred to me that the only non-menial paid work I found after being made redundant, as the Brits call it, was a short contract job as an SQL programmer! I wasn’t really a programmer, to be honest, but it was the only skill I had acquired in 30-plus years at IBM that anyone outside that company could recognize.)

Anyway, it is not because I needed it for programming that made it so valuable to me.

It’s the fact that it allows humans to organize and communicate their thoughts.

Think and communicate about what?  Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

Communicate what about that world? Communicate anything about it.

Communicate concisely, completely, with perfect precision, and with perfect mutual understanding.

How concisely?

In one sentence.  Any question, now matter how complex, no matter how many convoluted conditions and exceptions and interconnections, can be expressed in one sentence.

How hard is the language to learn?  To ask most common questions, it has one command (“select (this) from (that)  where (the other).

I think everyone should become proficient at it before graduating from high school.

In addition to having great intellectual value, it would be of great practical value every day to ordinary people, because they are mostly all using the computer all the time to get information.  Even to use Ricochet.

Why is it not being used by everybody every day?

That is a whole ‘nother question.

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  1. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    After reading the Comments, including this one, I’ve realized that I miscommunicated badly, and that no one much had a clue what I was saying. That often happens.

    Wasn’t the point (at least in large part) that learning SQL is a good training exercise in learning how to speak and write clearly?

    In particular, that it’s good training in learning how to refer to specific things and make statements about them?

    Yes. That was the whole point.

    Had I world enough and time I would be interested in reconsidering the whole Trivium! Maybe a good programming language should be added to language and logic and rhetoric as a basic tool of learning.

    This triggers a lot of thoughts. One of them that I decided to leave out of the post is that although SQL thoroughly teaches one organizational scheme for thinking and speaking (saying and asking), it leaves out at least one more: recursive subclassing, the “is_a” relationship.  Categorical logic, the language of Aristotle. I am led from that to how it helped me think formally about Platonic idealism. Clearly I need to stop there before things get out of control.

    • #61
  2. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    After reading the Comments, including this one, I’ve realized that I miscommunicated badly, and that no one much had a clue what I was saying. That often happens.

    Wasn’t the point (at least in large part) that learning SQL is a good training exercise in learning how to speak and write clearly?

    In particular, that it’s good training in learning how to refer to specific things and make statements about them?

    Yes. That was the whole point.

    Right on!

    In that case, the post was clear enough, I thought.

    Had I world enough and time I would be interested in reconsidering the whole Trivium! Maybe a good programming language should be added to language and logic and rhetoric as a basic tool of learning.

    This triggers a lot of thoughts.

    Woo hoo! That’s good.

    One of them that I decided to leave out of the post is that although SQL thoroughly teaches one organizational scheme for thinking and speaking (saying and asking), it leaves out at least one more: recursive subclassing, the “is_a” relationship. Categorical logic, the language of Aristotle. I am led from that to how it helped me think formally about Platonic idealism. Clearly I need to stop there before things get out of control.

    I dig.  I also need to quit. I have a categorical logic video to record.

    • #62
  3. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    I’m waiting eagerly to learn the command(s) you can run from your own PC that will open the necessary firewall ports (all along the chain) and establish credentials in Ricochet’s database.

    After reading the Comments, including this one, I’ve realized that I miscommunicated badly, and that no one much had a clue what I was saying. That often happens.

    No, Mark. That’s not what happened.

    What I really wanted to say is that by serendipity I learned a programming language and it turned out to be a life-changing, beautiful, surprising experience that had nothing necessarily to do with programming, but instead taught me a new way of thinking, and that I hope that others in the future, like future generations, have the same experience.

    That’s nice, and perfectly reasonable. A great start to a somewhat technical conversation.

    You accompanied that with utterly illogical whoppers, which were pointed out.

    You doubled down, and the collection of whoppers were then justly mocked and ridiculed.

    You are now trying to rewrite the story & recast your role. I’m not buying it.

    Phil,

    A conversational dialog requires mutual respect, and although I respect your integrity and honesty, you don’t respect mine.

    Personal attacks of this intensity make it difficult for me to attempt to return to the discussion of the subject at hand. If you don’t hear back from me, that’s why.

    • #63
  4. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    A conversational dialog requires mutual respect, and although I respect your integrity and honesty, you don’t respect mine.

    I want to, and used to, but in recent months it has been hard.  It could be me, but I think it isn’t.

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Personal attacks of this intensity make it difficult for me to attempt to return to the discussion of the subject at hand.

    Perhaps you can construct a logical query to examine the emotions I’ve triggered.  It might lead to insight as to inapplicability of SQL to so much of our unstructured, chaotic human condition.  Especially the parts that aren’t amenable to data collection.  Your OP says this:

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what?  Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    Communicate what about that world? Communicate anything about it.

    Communicate concisely, completely, with perfect precision, and with perfect mutual understanding.

    When I read this, I assumed satire.  No-one familiar with SQL could possibly believe this.  And then you seemed serious in your follow-ups.

    If it is satire, and I misread the rest, I will apologize.  Please enlighten me.

    If you don’t hear back from me, that’s why.

    Fair enough.  I’ll stop here.  Unless I need to apologize for not recognizing satire.

    • #64
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Um, so it helps you communicate?

    Interesting.

    It’s like a new putter. You can’t prove that it does NOT help.

    I don’t have too. You have to prove it does. I don’t think this thread supports the proposition in the OP. 

    ;)

    • #65
  6. GlennAmurgis Coolidge
    GlennAmurgis
    @GlennAmurgis

    I did the same working with XML and SGML

    • #66
  7. JustmeinAZ Member
    JustmeinAZ
    @JustmeinAZ

    Well that brings back memories. Working in finance at Hughes Aircraft in the late eighties I was one  of the first to be trained in SQL in order to access the new data warehouses that were being developed. It’s very useful to be one of very few who know how to do something!

    • #67
  8. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Pure logic and math are real enough.

    It’s everything else that’s a little fuzzy.

    • #68
  9. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    • #70
  11. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal.  By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”:  If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    • #71
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    I meant it to be serious. My definition is the one you’ll find in a dictionary.

    • #72
  13. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    I meant it to be serious. My definition is the one you’ll find in a dictionary.

    My faith in dictionaries ends around 1950.

    • #73
  14. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    I meant it to be serious. My definition is the one you’ll find in a dictionary.

    My faith in dictionaries ends around 1950.

    I’m with you on that, though it’s not related to the current thread.  The Progressivist march through our institutions started marching noticeably through the dictionary around then.  The assault in the present day is getting bolder and advancing faster. But much slower than the rest of the front.  Dictionaries are naturally sheltered from the full force of the violence, much as relativity theory was somewhat sheltered from the Nazi’s Progressivist march, even though a Jew discovered it.

     

    • #74
  15. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    @saintaugustine

    I loved your measured  reply to Saint Augustine until the part where you said he wasn’t serious.

    This is ricochet’s Saint Augustine we are talking about!! Of logical, philosophical and analytical training.

    • #75
  16. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    @ saintaugustine

    I loved your measured reply to Saint Augustine until the part where you said he wasn’t serious.

    This is ricochet’s Saint Augustine we are talking about!! Of logical, philosophical and analytical training.

    St. Augustine understands how I think, write, and read very well, and I know the same about him.  Because of that, I knew he would feel free to be either serious or not, knowing that I would try to figure it out. This was a coin toss and I asked for clarification and he gave it.

    So, you shouldn’t be unhappy about it. You should love all of my reply, even that part. We worked it out.

    • #76
  17. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp:

    Think and communicate about what? Anything they can imagine. About any world, or any part of that world–the real world as it is, a real world as it is hypothesized, and the unreal world of pure logic and math.

    The unreal world of pure logic and math?

    Sorry, I deferred defining the terms till I knew someone would care what I was saying.

    By the “real world” I mean the world about which true facts cannot be known by logic alone. (This kind of knowledge has been labeled “synthetic”)

    By the unreal world I mean the other one, about which “analytic” knowledge is possible.

    So the really real one is the “unreal” one?

    By my definition (see Comment #69), the one I call real is real and the one I call unreal is unreal. By your definition, the one I call unreal is real and the one I call real is unreal.

    That’s an example of the famous “Camp’s First Law of Dialog”: If you want a meaningful answer, you must ask a meaningful question: ensure that all the definitions and assumptions are known and agreed by writer and reader. We are here for Conservative Conversation, which includes dialog.

    I take your question as serious not because I think you meant it to be, but because at least for some it is.

    @ saintaugustine

    I loved your measured reply to Saint Augustine until the part where you said he wasn’t serious.

    This is ricochet’s Saint Augustine we are talking about!! Of logical, philosophical and analytical training.

    St. Augustine understands how I think, write, and read very well, and I know the same about him. Because of that, I knew he would feel free to be either serious or not, knowing that I would try to figure it out. This was a coin toss and I asked for clarification and he gave it.

    So, you shouldn’t be unhappy about it. You should love all of my reply, even that part. We worked it out.

    Conversation as a problem to be solved. Break and go to your corners. At the bell, Holmesian deductions at ten paces.

    • #77
  18. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Conversation as a problem to be solved. Break and go to your corners. At the bell, Holmesian deductions at ten paces.

    Those are inductions.

    • #78
  19. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Conversation as a problem to be solved. Break and go to your corners. At the bell, Holmesian deductions at ten paces.

    Those are inductions.

    And the HKer deflects into HVAC theory.

    • #79
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