Paging Jimmy Carter and the International Election Integrity Community

 

Here on Ricochet, there are two camps or poles in viewing the state of the US and its government. On the one hand, we have those who honestly see representative democracy as alive and powerful with an assured future in the US, supported by a uniquely American and independence-oriented culture. They see election integrity, educating and convincing the electorate, and getting the Constitutional and conservative message out as the key to electing an effective and functional government. That will shift the country back from the unfortunate direction the Biden administration and the Left in general has brought it to.  To this point, they say that the electorate as a whole is no dummy, and even if by self-interest alone it will be so frustrated and burdened that it will vote to oust the current representatives and give power to more conservative political elements.

On the other hand, there are at least a few who are to one degree or another concerned that election integrity has already successfully been grossly subverted and the 2020 election results are not only wrongly counted but the current president was wrongly installed. They believe there is no appropriate and adequate protest from the losing party, that legal enforcement of existing law has been lacking or blocked by the courts, and that few changes have been made to truly secure elections in the future.  And to this point, they seem to be concerned that the integrity of future elections is in doubt and the legitimacy of the results of the 2022 and 2024 elections is in severe jeopardy.

The election results have been debated.  Some people don’t question the election count and the results.  Others say that the level of fraud in the election count was not sufficient to alter the election results.  Others say that the election irregularities were sufficient to call the results into question.  And others say that the process of election counting clearly resulted in an incorrect winner.  So my question is not about the legitimacy of the results in the 2020 elections.

My question is this:

Does anyone have any knowledge of any country in history that has presented itself as having a democratically-elected representative form of government that ever had a blatantly stolen election, that stood essentially uncontested within the government itself, and that afterward returned to a process of fair and legitimate elections?

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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    I think it’s already been established that our elections wouldn’t pass the State Department’s standards for elections in other countries.

    • #1
  2. Ole Summers Member
    Ole Summers
    @OleSummers

    The key to your question is, of course, “uncontested within the government itself” which would indicate there will be no former remedy – hence, no. (based on my extensive survey of human history at 6 am with only a half a cup of coffee so far).

    That leaves the remedy to the people themselves and whatever machines of power they have or can build among themselves. Their ultimate instrument of power was denied them when the Roberts Court failed to take up the question of the unconstitutional changes made to state elections laws through the wave of DMC actions. Allowing these to go forward created the tangled mess of sorting out and disputes we have now when simply applying the Constitution and following existing law would have avoiding a lot of it. 

    Contesting such within the government itself is absolutely necessary because such an important element of “consent” is has to be constantly defended if it is to be maintained against the natural element of human kind who is always trying to undermine for power.

    • #2
  3. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    One could look at the election of 1876 which ended with a backroom deal to end the election by promising to end the occupation of the South.

    The election of 1960 is widely thought to have been stolen by Kennedy, especially IL.

    The problem with your thesis is that most liberal democracies are parliamentary systems so the elections are in two stages. One to elect the MPs and the second to select the PM. Since the second tends to be more important, and the elections are run quickly cheating, I suspect, is there and likely flips seats, but isn’t as big an issue because the head of govt isn’t on the ballot. In many parliamentary systems the chief executive has much less power and their selection is sort of an afterthought. The other reason it is less important is because a vote of confidence will topple the govt and new elections can be called pretty much any time. If we could do that in the US, we’ll, there would have been multiple calls for new elections to remove Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. 

    • #3
  4. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    It’s basic and straight forward.  We weren’t allowed to investigate so we have to accept that a person who had never gotten many votes ever, after reaching senility and without campaigning got more votes than anyone in history.  Couldn’t be fraud and now that they control both houses, the White House, most of the press,  giant business, it’ll be fair.  So we’re not preparing alternatives, like pulling out in whatever pieces can do so.  This would be crazy, right? because representative government is the norm and we’ll come back.     And China, who controls Africa, South America and Biden isn’t a threat and won’t do anything to advance its power over Biden’s remaining years.

    • #4
  5. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    Geez, don’t get me started.  Jimmy will still argue that Hugo Chavez came into power through a “free and fair” election.  

    The citizens of Venezuela would beg to differ.

    • #5
  6. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    The 1960 presidential election, the first one in which I was eligible to vote, was a very closely-run thing, and it was widely thought that it was handed to Kennedy by the Daley machine in Chicago and the Johnson cabal in Texas.

    The results of that election, however, were not nearly so disastrous for the country as 2020. 

    • #6
  7. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    Ole Summers (View Comment):
    The key to your question is, of course, “uncontested within the government itself” which would indicate there will be no former remedy – hence, no. (based on my extensive survey of human history at 6 am with only a half a cup of coffee so far).

    Yes, it was hard for me to phrase the question.  I was thinking of Venezuela and Cuba (and Russia) especially when I asked this, which have had reported in the Press overwhelming victories for the man or party in power.  I don’t know much about the inside machinations of power within foreign governments, but I have been led to believe that many of them are based on, vaguely, half voter turnout and how the electorate votes, and the other half on how big the existing government wants the election to result for the appearance of legitimacy and a mandate.  And of course, I suspect that pre-disqualifying other popular contenders often plays a large part as well.

    France has had a number of republics, none have survived with the exception of the post-WWII republic which I assume was not merely the result of a popular mandate so much as a reconstruction by Allied powers.

    Ukraine has had elections in recent decades and even then some elections were contested, but I do not know that any more recent elections have been free and fair.  And now it looks like popular contenders are being arrested and their parties outlawed.

    So I was asking for anyone who may have examples of a formerly free republic undergoing a false election with false results falsely installing leaders, which then righted itself — or permitted itself to be righted — and how that may have worked.

    • #7
  8. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Ole Summers (View Comment):
    The key to your question is, of course, “uncontested within the government itself” which would indicate there will be no former remedy – hence, no. (based on my extensive survey of human history at 6 am with only a half a cup of coffee so far).

    Yes, it was hard for me to phrase the question. I was thinking of Venezuela and Cuba (and Russia) especially when I asked this, which have had reported in the Press overwhelming victories for the man or party in power. I don’t know much about the inside machinations of power within foreign governments, but I have been led to believe that many of them are based on, vaguely, half voter turnout and how the electorate votes, and the other half on how big the existing government wants the election to result for the appearance of legitimacy and a mandate. And of course, I suspect that pre-disqualifying other popular contenders often plays a large art as well.

    France has had a number of republics, none have survived with the exception of the post-WWII republic which I assume was not merely the result of a popular mandate so much as a reconstruction by Allied powers.

    Ukraine has had elections in recent decades and even then some elections were contested, but I do not know that any more recent elections have been free and fair. And now it looks like popular contenders are being arrested and their parties outlawed.

    So I was asking for anyone who may have examples of a formerly free republic undergoing a false election with false results falsely installing leaders, which then righted itself — or permitted itself to be righted — and how that may have worked.

    Those countries are pretty rare.

    “One man, One Vote, One Time” didn’t come out of thin air.

    • #8
  9. Ole Summers Member
    Ole Summers
    @OleSummers

    CACrabtree (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Ole Summers (View Comment):
    The key to your question is, of course, “uncontested within the government itself” which would indicate there will be no former remedy – hence, no. (based on my extensive survey of human history at 6 am with only a half a cup of coffee so far).

    Yes, it was hard for me to phrase the question. I was thinking of Venezuela and Cuba (and Russia) especially when I asked this, which have had reported in the Press overwhelming victories for the man or party in power. I don’t know much about the inside machinations of power within foreign governments, but I have been led to believe that many of them are based on, vaguely, half voter turnout and how the electorate votes, and the other half on how big the existing government wants the election to result for the appearance of legitimacy and a mandate. And of course, I suspect that pre-disqualifying other popular contenders often plays a large art as well.

    France has had a number of republics, none have survived with the exception of the post-WWII republic which I assume was not merely the result of a popular mandate so much as a reconstruction by Allied powers.

    Ukraine has had elections in recent decades and even then some elections were contested, but I do not know that any more recent elections have been free and fair. And now it looks like popular contenders are being arrested and their parties outlawed.

    So I was asking for anyone who may have examples of a formerly free republic undergoing a false election with false results falsely installing leaders, which then righted itself — or permitted itself to be righted — and how that may have worked.

    Those countries are pretty rare.

    “One man, One Vote, One Time” didn’t come out of thin air.

    No , it didn’t. And I believe that somewhere in the explanation is engrained the concept of basic, individual rights – embedded even more deeply that specific general results. That is something that has grown from centuries of Western tradition, especially since the introduction of the Christian Church which expanded on its Judeo roots. Europe had never completely divorced its self from all of the past, but here it had come much closer to offering homing place for all which similar leanings. This has been the example for the rest of the world to follow in achieving that realization.

    That individual, single, vote represents “consent” as well as those scared rights. When it comes to represent merely a means to an ends – corruption will always follow.

    • #9
  10. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Oh, one could also look at the 2000 election as well. Though the real issue in that election was an ill formed ballot that had thousands vote for Pat Buchanan in heavily democratic Palm Beach County. The issue very likely flipped the election as Bush won by 537 votes. The butterfly ballot is estimated to have caused ~2,000 votes for Buchanan that likely were votes for Gore.

    These votes were never contested, though it cost the Palm Beach Elections Administrator her job. It was impossible to resolve the problem (such as it was). 

    • #10
  11. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Ukraine has had elections in recent decades and even then some elections were contested, but I do not know that any more recent elections have been free and fair.  And now it looks like popular contenders are being arrested and their parties outlawed.

    So I was asking for anyone who may have examples of a formerly free republic undergoing a false election with false results falsely installing leaders, which then righted itself — or permitted itself to be righted — and how that may have worked.

    Ukraine is probably as good an example as you’re going to get.  (Presuming what it is doing against domestic war opponents is not much more than what the U.S. and other free countries have done.) 

    • #11
  12. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Ukraine has had elections in recent decades and even then some elections were contested, but I do not know that any more recent elections have been free and fair. And now it looks like popular contenders are being arrested and their parties outlawed.

    So I was asking for anyone who may have examples of a formerly free republic undergoing a false election with false results falsely installing leaders, which then righted itself — or permitted itself to be righted — and how that may have worked.

    Ukraine is probably as good an example as you’re going to get. (Presuming what it is doing against domestic war opponents is not much more than what the U.S. and other free countries have done.)

    I don’t think the US ever jailed opposition leaders and outlawed popular parties, though.

    • #12
  13. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Cassandro (View Comment):
    I don’t think the US ever jailed opposition leaders and outlawed popular parties, though.

    Depends on what you call a leader. 

    • #13
  14. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):
    I don’t think the US ever jailed opposition leaders and outlawed popular parties, though.

    Depends on what you call a leader.

    Eugene K Debs Communist party Presidential candidate in 1916 was jailed by the Wilson administration for opposing WWI. He ran again in 1920 from jail.

    • #14
  15. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    He ran again in 1920 from jail.

    Did they catch him again?  (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)  Thanks for the answer.

    • #15
  16. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):
    I don’t think the US ever jailed opposition leaders and outlawed popular parties, though.

    Depends on what you call a leader.

    Eugene K Debs Coomunist party Presidential candidate in 1916 was jailed by the Wilson administration for opposing WWI. He ran again in 1920 from jail.

    Running to Wilson’s right. 

    • #16
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