Dominoes Falling in the Fight to Protect Women’s Sports

 

The Federation Internationale de Natation (FINA), which governs international competitive swimming, has come to a remarkably fair and humane conclusion regarding the participation of transgender athletes. A couple of excerpts:

The Science Group reported that biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty.

Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognised by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later. Specifically, the athlete must produce evidence establishing that:

i. They have complete androgen insensitivity and therefore could not experience male puberty; or

ii. They are androgen sensitive but had male puberty suppressed beginning at Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later, and they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L.

The first physical indications of puberty are classed as Tanner Stage 2.

Did we just get a win? I did not see this coming. Slava Ukraina! Nothing like the distant fall of hot metal rain and the prospect of a cold winter to shake off summer dreams, eh?

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  1. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    I wish they would just enact a ban, period.  Forget testosterone levels and this Tanner Stage 2 junk . . .

    Think KISS . . .

    • #1
  2. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    For swimmers, it’s going to encourage “transitioning” at a younger age with all that entails.

    • #2
  3. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    All this “science,” yet a fetus is not a baby, just a blob of tissue.

    • #3
  4. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Stad (View Comment):

    I wish they would just enact a ban, period. Forget testosterone levels and this Tanner Stage 2 junk . . .

    They had to go to the science (that is a leftest false god) to try and not get sacked by the left. We will see if this works. 

    • #4
  5. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    I wish they would just enact a ban, period. Forget testosterone levels and this Tanner Stage 2 junk . . .

    They had to go to the science (that is a leftest false god) to try and not get sacked by the left. We will see if this works.

    Science is pretty good as long as it’s the kind of science obsessed with empirical Truth. I think it would be an OK replacement for G-d as far as it goes.

    The swim people made their decisions based on observable and testable reality rather than the whims of corrupt experts who pretend to be scientists.

    • #5
  6. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    I thought we were going to talk about pizza. Disappointed.

    /jk

    • #6
  7. She Member
    She
    @She

    I’ll take as a “win” the part that talks about the self-evident differences between biological men and biological women, and that such a gap in achievement following the onset of puberty is pronounced and dispositively in favor of one sex in terms of sports requiring certain characteristics of muscularity, and the strength of the blood pump and the lung capacity.  That’s an extraordinarily brave and sane admission in this Year of the Lord 2022.

    The rest of it is just creepy.

    I’m glad that they carve out a mention of those with 46 XY DSD–(were my family to give this a colloquial name, we might call it Aunt Mary’s Disease), an infinitesimally small number of the athletic population, I’m sure, but the only one which at least comes by its unfortunate difficulties in this instance honestly.

    And it does nothing so much as confirm my longstanding belief that there is absolutely nothing natural about the determination of vast swaths of the younger generations of Western children to show their disapproving and judgmental elders that the way they were born just isn’t good enough, or special enough for them, and to mutilate themselves in damaging and freakish ways to make their point. 

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    For swimmers, it’s going to encourage “transitioning” at a younger age with all that entails.

    Yeah, I think this ought to be a concern.  I also worry about the weasel worlds “that they can establish, to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction…”

    • #7
  8. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.” 

    • #8
  9. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

    And the response to that will be “Do it younger.”  Short term win, long term loss.

    • #9
  10. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

    And the response to that will be “Do it younger.” Short term win, long term loss.

    They aren’t responsible for saving the world, or even solving the transgender plague. They’re policing their little corner unexpectedly well.

    • #10
  11. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

    And the response to that will be “Do it younger.” Short term win, long term loss.

    Um, what athletic advantage do you imagine boys will gain over girls by transitioning before puberty?

    • #11
  12. Jimmy Carter Member
    Jimmy Carter
    @JimmyCarter

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

     

     

    • #12
  13. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Good article on Outkick.

    https://www.outkick.com/lia-thomas-will-not-race-against-women/

    • #13
  14. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    For swimmers, it’s going to encourage “transitioning” at a younger age with all that entails.

    That’s a HUGE risk. Pre-puberty, boys and girls are pretty comparable. I’m pretty certain (though not completely) that girls’ muscle development is much faster pre-puberty than post.

    Pre-pubescent boys that are mediocre in athletics are not necessarily going to be that way post. And male athletes are infinitely more successful than female ones.

    It is bad adult male athletes that want to compete against women. There’s no saying if someone will be a mediocre male athlete when they are 10-11. 

    • #14
  15. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

    And the response to that will be “Do it younger.” Short term win, long term loss.

    Um, what athletic advantage do you imagine boys will gain over girls by transitioning before puberty?

    Athletic advantage isn’t the point.  Making a life changing decision at a young age is.

    • #15
  16. Susan in Seattle Member
    Susan in Seattle
    @SusaninSeattle

    This is good news.  Thanks for posting.

    • #16
  17. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    Barfly: they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L.

    2.5 nmol/L equals 72 ng/dl, these are the units used in the US.

    A normal male is 300-900 ng/dl

    A normal female, under 80, varying through the menstrual cycle

    So 2.5 nmol/L is a reasonable cutoff.

    • #17
  18. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    Barfly: they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L.

    2.5 nmol/L equals 72 ng/dl, these are the units used in the US.

    A normal male is 300-900 ng/dl

    A normal female, under 80, varying through the menstrual cycle

    So 2.5 nmol/L is a reasonable cutoff.

    I wish they weren’t cutting things off in the first place. 

    For my money, the thing should be about…my money. In the sense that opportunities earmarked for members of a specific group either need to lose the earmark, or, you know, actually go to members of that group. 

    Women/girls who compete for money, prestige, scholarships…pretty much anything other than a ‘friendly game’ of sportsball, should have the expectation that their prize will not be taken by a male. 

    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world. You want to attend a university for cheap by using an unnatural advantage over your competitors? I’m thinking ‘no’. 

    • #18
  19. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    I thought we were going to talk about pizza. Disappointed.

    /jk

    I really thought it was about the riveting tabletop game.

    • #19
  20. She Member
    She
    @She

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. 

    OK.  So you ask the question (in the OP), “did we just get a win?” and when several of your fellow members answer honestly in the comments either “I’m not sure,” or “Well, this bit looks good, but perhaps the rest of it is a pile of crap,” you excoriate them for not falling into line with the your received wisdom?

    Sorry, not sorry.  

    • #20
  21. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    I don’t know what y’all are complaining about. They basically said “If your voice changed, then you can’t compete as a woman.”

    And the response to that will be “Do it younger.” Short term win, long term loss.

    Um, what athletic advantage do you imagine boys will gain over girls by transitioning before puberty?

    A good question, and not one that has been studied to my satisfaction. So why let them compete? 

    • #21
  22. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    TBA (View Comment):
    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world.

    I disagree. I think chopping off healthy parts should be illegal and any “doctor” who performs such surgeries should be jailed for a long, long time. That’s how the world should respond to the mutilation of mentally ill people.

    • #22
  23. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world.

    I disagree. I think chopping off healthy parts should be illegal and any “doctor” who performs such surgeries should be jailed for a long, long time. That’s how the world should respond to the mutilation of mentally ill people.

    Or maybe demon possessed people.

    • #23
  24. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world.

    I disagree. I think chopping off healthy parts should be illegal and any “doctor” who performs such surgeries should be jailed for a long, long time. That’s how the world should respond to the mutilation of mentally ill people.

    Fair enough. My sticking point remains the part where an XY is ripping off an XX.

    Added: As opposed an XY ripping off…himself.

    • #24
  25. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world.

    I disagree. I think chopping off healthy parts should be illegal and any “doctor” who performs such surgeries should be jailed for a long, long time. That’s how the world should respond to the mutilation of mentally ill people.

    Or maybe demon possessed people.

    It’s heart wrenching and painful to watch this. 

    • #25
  26. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    Dominoes?  For myself, I have no objection to trans-folk competing in dominoes.  Not  a problem.  

    • #26
  27. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    It has been fascinating to watch the argument about men competing in women’s sports in light of the years the country spent arguing over women in combat in the military. 

    It seems to me that scientists who test people for strength and endurance have definitively answered the question, “Are women as strong as men?”  

    I should think we would be revisiting any government policy written under the apparently erroneous assumption that men and women have equal strength. 

    • #27
  28. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MarciN (View Comment):

    It has been fascinating to watch the argument about men competing in women’s sports in light of the years the country spent arguing over women in combat in the military.

    It seems to me that scientists who test people for strength and endurance have definitively answered the question, “Are women as strong as men?”

    I should think we would be revisiting any government policy written under the apparently erroneous assumption that men and women have equal strength.

    They didn’t write that policy believing women are as strong as men. They’ve been lowering the qualifying standards for years to allow women to pass muster. The claim women are as “capable” which is not the same as strength.

    • #28
  29. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Mods may fix my misspelled title if they want. Thank you @davidcarroll for the correction.

    • #29
  30. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    You wanna chop off the man bits and call yourself a woman? That’s between you and the world.

    I disagree. I think chopping off healthy parts should be illegal and any “doctor” who performs such surgeries should be jailed for a long, long time. That’s how the world should respond to the mutilation of mentally ill people.

    Bravo.  Bravissimo.

    • #30
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