More Than “One Damn Thing,” with Bill Barr

 

 

William P. Barr is one of only two people to have served as attorney general of the United States under two presidents and the only one to have done it in two different centuries (under George H. W. Bush from 1991 to 1993 and under Donald Trump from 2019 to 2020). In his new book, One Damn Thing after Another: Memoirs of an Attorney General, Barr goes into great detail about the chaos, the troubles, and the triumph that occurred during the time of his service under President Trump. This wide-ranging interview covers Russiagate, the COVID outbreak, civil unrest, the impeachment, and the 2020 election fallout. Barr is very candid and forthcoming in his opinions on those events and his thoughts on his former boss.

Recorded on May 17, 2022

Published in General
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  1. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Great discussion.  

    • #1
  2. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Dagnabbit.  I was going to watch just out of respect and appreciation for Peter Robinson.  I mean, I watched the Chris Christie thing he did for the same reason, and that didn’t kill me.

    The camera cut to Barr sitting silent (very professional) while PR continued the introduction, and my eyes flicked to the time bar.  Over an hour!  Now I’m sure that there is easily an hour of good material to go over, and when Robinson talks to somebody, we actually learn things.

    Just the same, I do not have an hour for Barr — I literally felt my dudgeon (wherever that is) get all the way up to high, and life is too short.  I’m as mad at Barr as I am at Sessions.

    If there’s a Cliff’s notes version of this, great.  I just know that I’ll simply dismiss whatever excuses I hear from Barr, if he even offers any.  There’s no way that I can see to integrate 1. Barr being on our side, 2. Barr being good at his job, and 3. Barr getting the results he got. 

    Well.  Not gonna re-litigate it.  Good to see PR doing big and important things.  I’ll go listen to Ricochet Podcast #101 for my fix.

     

    • #2
  3. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    BDB (View Comment):

    Well. Not gonna re-litigate it. Good to see PR doing big and important things. I’ll go listen to Ricochet Podcast #101 for my fix.

    Why listen to either this or the podcast. Surely there are better things you could do with your ears?

    • #3
  4. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    A great interview- Barr is a gem. Probably watch it again. 

    • #4
  5. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    I am currently reading Barr’s book. I have always liked and trusted him. The interview simply reinforced my feelings about Barr. He is a man of real integrity. My older brother has expressed dismay at Barr’s unwillingness to believe any of the claims of “a stolen election.” I suspect that a lot of Trump supporters feel the same way. The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe. There was certainly a concerted effort to defeat Trump by the media, but what they did wasn’t illegal, just immoral. Barr is a hardnosed legal expert. He makes that clear throughout the book and the interview. He supported Trump when Trump was right, but he refused to give the kind of blind, absolute loyalty Trump demands but never gives. What I see in the book and the interview is exactly what I saw in Trump prior to the 2016 election and through his four years. He is, ultimately, a talented amateur, but he completely lacks the depth of knowledge necessary to be anything but a disruptor. For Trump it was never about the country. It was about him, his ego. When the country’s benefit diverged from what he perceived as his own he chose his own. That really is what January 6th was about, and probably a lot more less consequential events.

    What I see in Barr is a man for whom the law is an absolute. He knows it and practices it. There isn’t any ego in it. He doesn’t interpret right and wrong as they affect him personally. He supported Trump when Trump was acting constitutionally and presidentially. He called out the left when they violated his code of justice, and he called out Trump the same way. The absurdity of some saying, as the left does, that Barr was more Trump’s wingman and the most sycophantic AG in history ignores reality and Holder’s actually calling himself Obama’s wingman. At the same time calling him a traitor for not acceding to Trump’s pushing the limits of his power is just as absurd. Barr was exactly what a Attorney General should be, a man who upholds the Constitution and defends it no matter who is attacking it. He is, first and foremost, a patriot, and very likely the best AG in my lifetime. He deserves all of our thanks for the job he did.

    • #5
  6. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    • #6
  7. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    Outstanding.  He’s solid and we needed him.    His criticisms of Trump  are probably sound but I don’t think we can say there was no fraud in the election.   It may have been exaggerated but it tipped the balance.  Do folks really believe that senile old, non campaigning Biden got more votes than anyone in history?  I just can’t find that credible.  The second point I’d make, is that I want Trump to continue to draw attention as the candidate but I think he will not be and it will be his choice.  De Santis will be the candidate but all the hate will be focused on Trump until  well after the Congressional elections.  We’ll see just how extensive the fraud is in the Congressional elections.  If  it’s enough to hold a majority for the Democrats it’s over and we’ll have to begin splitting the country apart.  Not just some states but pieces of all the states.   Folks don’t seem to understand just how terminal a Democrat win will be, not just for us but for the industrialized world.   It means the demented clique running the country, concentrating power at the top, working with the Chinese know what they’re doing and can manage the most complex diverse society in history.  They do not.  They are corrupt fools.   Our hope is that they are so stupid they don’t realize the extent of the fraud they will have to commit to win.

     

     

     

     

     

    • #7
  8. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven. No successful case has been brought in any US courtroom to prove that the election was stolen and that Biden, as bad as he is, was illegitimately elected. What you are stating has a lot more to do with belief than proven reality. This, I think is one of the things that most disturbs me about the Trump obsession.

    To me, Trump was a means to an end. To large extent he served that purpose well. However, he has become the end in itself for his more ardent followers, and that is both anti-democratic (small “d”) and anti-conservative. Believing as some seem to do in Trump’s divinity is a form of moral relativism more native to the left than the right. Conservatives are supposed to believe in moral certainty, unwavering rules essentially based on the Judaeo-Christian heritage of our union. It is the left who see the ends as justifying the means, moral relativism. Excusing every failing of Trump’s is exactly that, relativism.

    I detest the left. I detest Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the rest. It infuriates me when they try to pull the kind of garbage they do on an almost daily basis. The lying, the self-serving, and all of it makes me think at times that anything is justified. However, that is moral relativism, and giving into Trump’s baser instincts is just what that is.

    Barr differentiates between what is true conservativism and what passes for it by being simply anti-left. Maintaining our moral structure is the only way of insuring that when we win this battle, and I have no doubt that we will, that what we have is what our founders envisioned. When we go to figurative war with our opposition we are, in effect, looking into that proverbial abyss, we must not become the abyss in order to defeat it.

    Having said that, I, like Barr, would vote for Trump is preference to any Democrat. However, I would prefer someone with far more real conservative values and far fewer relativist behaviors.

    • #8
  9. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    • #9
  10. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven. No successful case has been brought in any US courtroom to prove that the election was stolen and that Biden, as bad as he is, was illegitimately elected. What you are stating has a lot more to do with belief than proven reality. This, I think is one of the things that most disturbs me about the Trump obsession.

    I’ll just gently point out that I see the mutiny, fraud, coup, and illegitimacy as proven to my satisfaction.  You are welcome to your own standards, and if you call legal results inerrant, that is your choice.

    We all saw it happen.  We differ as to what happened.  “Has not been proven,” is sometimes just a defensible way of saying “I disagree.”  Much has not been proven about Hillary Clinton, too.  Some of it is out there, but some of it definitely happened, and that judgement will never come.  Doesn’t change what we know happened.  Life is not lived according to a propositional logic.  We know things.

    I’m not trying to convince you, and I appreciate your respectful style of disagreement.

    • #10
  11. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    Barr differentiates between what is true conservativism and what passes for it by being simply anti-left. Maintaining our moral structure is the only way of insuring that when we win this battle, and I have no doubt that we will, that what we have is what our founders envisioned. When we go to figurative war with our opposition we are, in effect, looking into that proverbial abyss, we must not become the abyss in order to defeat it.

    I will accept our anti-left allies so long as they do not make themselves otherwise unwelcome through noxious behaviors or positions.  A little bit of nose-holding, but just a little.  Similarly, while I agree about not becoming the abyss, there remains the requirement to shoot back at those who shoot at you, distasteful weapon or not.  This is what unpleasant choices are made of.

    • #11
  12. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been. 

    Do I believe that there  was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    • #12
  13. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point.

    I don’t need to. It’s been proven. You just need to look. The work has been done by several people. It’s out there. The election was stolen. It’s time for the citizens to state what is true and not simply go along with the lies of the ruling class because we don’t want to look too crazy. What’s crazy is believing Joe Biden won legitimately.

    • #13
  14. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point.

    I don’t need to. It’s been proven. You just need to look. The work has been done by several people. It’s out there. The election was stolen. It’s time for the citizens to state what is true and not simply go along with the lies of the ruling class because we don’t want to look too crazy. What’s crazy is believing Joe Biden won legitimately.

    There’s a corollary here.  We do not need permission or approval to vote as we please.  The government is trying to staple our behavior to their pronouncements.

    • #14
  15. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    BDB (View Comment):
    The government is trying to staple our behavior to their pronouncements.

    They really don’t like it when we disagree with them. Which is why they employ “fact” checkers and “experts” to lie for them, to try to lend a patina of legitimacy to their gaslighting.

    • #15
  16. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Barr is no hero. I’d say that if your heroes are bureaucrats, you’re doing life wrong.

    • #16
  17. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Trump has proven himself to be more of a whiner than a winner.  

    • #17
  18. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Trump has proven himself to be more of a whiner than a winner.

    Nancy Pelosi thanks you for your support.

    • #18
  19. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    But Trump’s the problem. Right.

    Quisling Republicans make me want to set things on fire.

    • #19
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    • #20
  21. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    That is a pretty condescending comment. Nobody is leading me around by my nose. In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take. What I hear from your side of the argument strikes me a far more typical of the left, take it on faith because it’s the truth, believe us, we know! Sorry, I don’t buy that. For instance, who is the “they” you are referring to who are conspiring to keep the evidence from being heard in court? I know better than to argue religion, and that is what this issue has become for those who believe that the election was stolen by fraud.

    • #21
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take.

    How do you measure that?

     

    • #22
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    But 2,000 Mules alone demonstrates that we have 2,000 (actually more) cases of election fraud, and if they can track those devices, they know who owns them. That’s 2,000 people who could immediately be charged.

    Why haven’t they? It’s a pretty good question. I’d like an answer.

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    That is a pretty condescending comment. Nobody is leading me around by my nose. In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take. What I hear from your side of the argument strikes me a far more typical of the left, take it on faith because it’s the truth, believe us, we know! Sorry, I don’t buy that. For instance, who is the “they” you are referring to who are conspiring to keep the evidence from being heard in court? I know better than to argue religion, and that is what this issue has become for those who believe that the election was stolen by fraud.

    Actually, I think you’re taking it on faith because courts have so far basically refused to take it up or to rule on it, but there is plenty of clear evidence.  You sound like those who say we shouldn’t question the integrity of elections because it might cause people to question the integrity of elections, and that’s Bad.  Feh.

    • #23
  24. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    [snip]

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    That is a pretty condescending comment. Nobody is leading me around by my nose. In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take. What I hear from your side of the argument strikes me a far more typical of the left, take it on faith because it’s the truth, believe us, we know! Sorry, I don’t buy that. For instance, who is the “they” you are referring to who are conspiring to keep the evidence from being heard in court? I know better than to argue religion, and that is what this issue has become for those who believe that the election was stolen by fraud.

    I would have liked @kedavis’ comment but for the “led around by the nose” part.  In gentler terms, I agree with him.  For what it’s worth, I see overweening faith in the state’s official pronouncements, denials, and filtering of due process an equally “religious” stance.  I have an old post in mind — I’ll @name you when I find it.

    • #24
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    [snip]

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    That is a pretty condescending comment. Nobody is leading me around by my nose. In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take. What I hear from your side of the argument strikes me a far more typical of the left, take it on faith because it’s the truth, believe us, we know! Sorry, I don’t buy that. For instance, who is the “they” you are referring to who are conspiring to keep the evidence from being heard in court? I know better than to argue religion, and that is what this issue has become for those who believe that the election was stolen by fraud.

    I would have liked @ kedavis’ comment but for the “led around by the nose” part. In gentler terms, I agree with him. For what it’s worth, I see overweening faith in the state’s official pronouncements, denials, and filtering of due process an equally “religious” stance. I have an old post in mind — I’ll @ name you when I find it.

    Maybe you could like #23 without liking #20?  :-)

    • #25
  26. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven.

    It’s pretty clear now that they have been proven. Nobody has the balls to bring charges because then what happens? It’s uncharted territory. Do we have a do-over election?

    [snip]

    Nothing you have stated here proves the point. This is all opinion, not fact. Dinesh is not a journalist. His film, though compelling, is simply not proven factual, as he himself has stated. You can say that the election was stolen until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t prove it. The standard in this country requires a court hearing in which the evidence is proven to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. It hasn’t been.

    Do I believe that there was hanky-panky? Most certainly there was. Did it help to overturn the legitimate results of the election? That has not been proven, and enough judges of unquestionable integrity have refused to hear the cases attempted because they lacked even a modicum of credibility. The simple fact is that saying something over and over again doesn’t make it a fact even if it convinces a lot people who want to be convinced because their side lost.

    So all they have to do is make sure none of the fraud ever gets to court, and they can lead you around by the nose until you drop.

    That is a pretty condescending comment. Nobody is leading me around by my nose. In actual fact, the vast majority of conservative commentators and writers agree with the position I have chosen to take. What I hear from your side of the argument strikes me a far more typical of the left, take it on faith because it’s the truth, believe us, we know! Sorry, I don’t buy that. For instance, who is the “they” you are referring to who are conspiring to keep the evidence from being heard in court? I know better than to argue religion, and that is what this issue has become for those who believe that the election was stolen by fraud.

    I would have liked @ kedavis’ comment but for the “led around by the nose” part. In gentler terms, I agree with him. For what it’s worth, I see overweening faith in the state’s official pronouncements, denials, and filtering of due process an equally “religious” stance. I have an old post in mind — I’ll @ name you when I find it.

    Maybe you could like #23 without liking #20? :-)

    Done.

    • #26
  27. The Cynthonian Member
    The Cynthonian
    @TheCynthonian

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):
    The facts stand. There may have been some incidents of fraud, but nowhere on the scale that Trump and his minions would have us believe.

    “Minions.”

    Well, anyway, I think you might want to learn some more about what’s come out over the last year.

    The election was definitely stolen and Joe Biden was illegitimately “elected.” Do not look away.

    Neither of those statements have definitively been proven. No successful case has been brought in any US courtroom to prove that the election was stolen and that Biden, as bad as he is, was illegitimately elected. What you are stating has a lot more to do with belief than proven reality. This, I think is one of the things that most disturbs me about the Trump obsession.

    To me, Trump was a means to an end. To large extent he served that purpose well. However, he has become the end in itself for his more ardent followers, and that is both anti-democratic (small “d”) and anti-conservative. Believing as some seem to do in Trump’s divinity is a form of moral relativism more native to the left than the right. Conservatives are supposed to believe in moral certainty, unwavering rules essentially based on the Judaeo-Christian heritage of our union. It is the left who see the ends as justifying the means, moral relativism. Excusing every failing of Trump’s is exactly that, relativism.

    <Snipped for length>

    Barr differentiates between what is true conservativism and what passes for it by being simply anti-left. Maintaining our moral structure is the only way of insuring that when we win this battle, and I have no doubt that we will, that what we have is what our founders envisioned. When we go to figurative war with our opposition we are, in effect, looking into that proverbial abyss, we must not become the abyss in order to defeat it.

    Having said that, I, like Barr, would vote for Trump is preference to any Democrat. However, I would prefer someone with far more real conservative values and far fewer relativist behaviors.

    Trump’s “divinity”????   Nonsense.  This is by far the most condescending comment in this entire thread.    I know a lot of Trump supporters, and none of us thinks he’s divine.  He was simply the best available tool to tackle the problem at hand (the existential threats to the Republic posed by leftist control of all our major institutions) at that point in time (2016 and 2020 presidential elections).  2024 is TBD.

    • #27
  28. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Cynthonian (View Comment):
    This is by far the most condescending comment in this entire thread.    I know a lot of Trump supporters, and none of us thinks he’s divine.

    The contempt the Nevers express toward Trump voters is pathetic and endemic.

    • #28
  29. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic &hellip; (View Comment):

    The Cynthonian (View Comment):
    This is by far the most condescending comment in this entire thread. I know a lot of Trump supporters, and none of us thinks he’s divine.

    The contempt the Nevers express toward Trump voters is pathetic and endemic.

    “Nevers” is that the new RACIST, a simple and convenient way to dismiss anyone who doesn’t agree with you? More and more it sounds like the left.

    • #29
  30. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic &hellip; (View Comment):

    The Cynthonian (View Comment):
    This is by far the most condescending comment in this entire thread. I know a lot of Trump supporters, and none of us thinks he’s divine.

    The contempt the Nevers express toward Trump voters is pathetic and endemic.

    Nevers” is that the new RACIST, a simple and convenient way to dismiss anyone who doesn’t agree with you? More and more it sounds like the left.

    “Leftist?” Is that this is the simple and convenient way to dismiss anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

    Because I’ve been getting that here lately every time I suggest maybe we shouldn’t be starting World War III in Ukraine.

    • #30
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