Why Leftist Jews Distrust Evangelical Christians

 

When I was attending Cal State Long Beach, I remember one lunchtime when I was approached in the cafeteria by a young man. I don’t remember exactly what he asked me, but I know it had to do with Jesus, and I was immediately put off. I had spent most of my growing up years feeling like an outsider (as a Jew) and a heretic (for not accepting Jesus), and I brusquely rejected his inquiry. He politely walked away, but his unsolicited inquiry has stayed with me.

But my perspective towards Christians in general and Evangelicals specifically has changed dramatically. Due to the communities with which I socialize and my limited but sincere practice of Judaism, coupled with my curiosity about religions, I welcome input from my Christian friends and have found them to be very kind (except for one Ricochetee who believed that the Jewish religion was no longer relevant). So, I thought I might benefit from learning the nature of the relationship between Jews and Evangelicals, the complexity and diversity of those relationships, and how we might all benefit from knowing each other better.

By beginning with the Jews on the political Left, we can see the most current reasons for Jews rejecting and distrusting Christians:

The answer, I think, is that many Christian liberals see Israel as blocking the aspirations of the oppressed—who, they have decided, include the Palestinians. Never mind that the Palestinians support suicide bombers and rocket attacks against Israel; never mind that the Palestinians cannot form a competent government; never mind that they wish to occupy Israel ‘from the sea to the river.’ It is enough that they seem oppressed, even though much of the oppression is self-inflicted.

After the Marxist claims about the proletariat proved false and capitalism was vindicated as the best way to achieve economic affluence, leftists had to stop pretending that they could accomplish much with state-owned factories and national economic plans. As a result, the oppressed replaced the proletariat as the Left’s object of affection. The enemy became, not capitalists, but successful nations.

Attributing Marxist doctrine to the cause of the Palestinians was a premise I hadn’t anticipated. But considering the prevalence of Marxist ideas in this country, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

There is also another distorted set of beliefs that causes Leftist Jews to fear Evangelical Christians:

Christian Smith, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina, analyzed four surveys of self-identified evangelicals and found that, while they do think that America was founded as a Christian nation and fear that the country has lost its moral bearings, these views are almost exactly the same as those held by non-evangelical Americans. Evangelicals, like other Americans, oppose having public schools teach Christian values, oppose having public school teachers lead students in vocal prayers, and oppose a constitutional amendment declaring the country a Christian nation. Evangelicals deny that there is one correct Christian view on most political issues, deny that Jews must answer for allegedly killing Christ, deny that laws protecting free speech go too far, and reject the idea that whites should be able to keep blacks out of their neighborhoods. They overwhelmingly agree that Jews and Christians share the same values and can live together in harmony. Evangelicals strongly oppose abortion and gay marriage, but in almost every other respect are like other Americans.

Yet Jews on the Left persist in holding these flawed views. When it comes to helping secure Israel’s survival, the tiny Jewish minority in America should not reject the help offered by a group that is ten times larger and whose views on the central propositions of a democratic society are much like everybody else’s.

In spite of the facts, politically Leftist Jews are highly critical of the Evangelical community:

Evangelical Christians have a high opinion not just of the Jewish state but of Jews as people. That Jewish voters are overwhelmingly liberal doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals, despite their own conservative politics. Yet Jews don’t return the favor: in one Pew survey, 42 percent of Jewish respondents expressed hostility to evangelicals and fundamentalists. As two scholars from Baruch College have shown, a much smaller fraction—about 16 percent—of the American public has similarly antagonistic feelings toward Christian fundamentalists.

There are also tensions over the belief in the end times, with a wide range of belief among the Evangelical Christians; Jews, of course, are waiting for the Messiah. A little humor goes a long way to bridging the gap:

As the late founder of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein said in a conference led by Israel365 Media in 2015, ‘When the Mashiach comes, we can ask him if this is his first time here or second. Till then, let’s focus on our shared values and opportunities together’.

I expect most Leftist Jews are not amused.

Resentment still shows up in the minds of some Jews toward Evangelical Christians, and it is critically important (and is not clear from the article cited) whether the author was personally approached by Evangelical Christians:

I have no problem with your discovering Jesus and embracing Jesus and putting your faith in Jesus – I actually support that. In fact, there’s a story about the Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov, founder of Chassidism, who wouldn’t ride with a wagon driver who didn’t wear a cross on his chest. He preferred to roam through the deserted tundra with a man who at least feared something—never mind the theological nuances.

But why can’t you keep it to yourselves? Why must you insist that I, too, reject my grandfather’s Torah, stop praying the way my family has done since the minus fifteen hundreds, and accept your Jesus, and in my heart, no less?

All religions are entitled to state their purpose and beliefs freely in this country. Unless a person is trapped in a situation where they are forced to listen to these ideas, they should appreciate that this country welcomes religious expression. 

The last trend that I wanted to share is something called Replacement Theology:

Younger Evangelical Christians are increasingly distancing from Israel and are less likely to see any theological significance in the Jewish people. However, for many, this may not be the most worrisome development in and of itself. What is more concerning is that it is likely correlated with the fact that more young people are adopting Replacement Theology—believing that upon the birth of Jesus, the Jewish people ceased its role as the chosen people and the Church subsequently replaced them. Many of them are Millennials (34%) even though they only represent 22% of all Evangelical Christians.

These Millennials are today’s young leaders in the United States—in churches, business and government. This trend is unsettling because history has shown that Replacement Theology has produced both antisemitic and anti-Israel sentiments. Especially in European history, those holding positions of Replacement Theology have viewed God as being finished with the Jewish people and Jews as disloyal by being “responsible” for the crucifixion of Jesus. Historically, this has been the source of many antisemitic tropes.

I had not heard about this theology before, and wondered if others had. I’m not here to debate its validity, but only say that it does raise concerns for me.

Finally, this statement summed up my own views toward Evangelical Christians and Christians in general:

Well, our interests with the Evangelical community are aligned.  Evangelical supporters have been Israel’s best friends. They have supported the Israeli government, have invested funds in our startup nation and donated over 1.5 billion dollars to organizations we work with. Most importantly, they believe in the same Bible Passage in Genesis that we do. Do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater just because we don’t agree with their eschatology?

My Christian friends, Evangelical or otherwise, are a blessing in my life. I’m so grateful for your love and support, and welcome your input to this post.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    The place to start is, probably, to unlearn anything you think you’ve learned about the New Testament and start with this: It’s a bunch of writings by Jews of the Second Temple era (plus Luke and maybe one or two other friends who aren’t actually Jews) interpreting Torah, Writings, and Prophets and announcing the fulfillment of certain prophecies.

    Best Unlearn What You Have Learned GIFs | Gfycat

    • #61
  2. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    • #62
  3. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes.

    I think nearly all Christians would agree on “Yes.”  There is ample evidence in the NT that we need not spend much effort sharing the Gospel with the uninterested.

    On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    Yes.

    • #63
  4. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    There is more than one way to evangelize. One may try to inspire by example.

    • #64
  5. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    Some Christians hold to a universalist soteriology; they believe that everyone shall be saved; everyone will go to heaven.  My bet is that these types of Christians aren’t as motivated to convince a Jew, a Hindu, a Jain or a Buddhist to convert to Christianity because whether they convert or don’t convert, they will be in heaven.

    However, those who believe that one must subscribe to a specific version of Christianity to be saved (some Protestants don’t think Catholics will go to heaven and some Catholics think that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church), are likely to place a higher priority on convincing others to see things their way.  The stakes are too high to do otherwise.

    Historically some Christians have endorsed the torturing of people who didn’t hold to the same theological beliefs as themselves.  That’s much less common today since these days the line that “For you, your religion; for me, my religion” is fairly popular.

    • #65
  6. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn:

    The last trend that I wanted to share is something called Replacement Theology:

    I had not heard about this theology before, and wondered if others had. I’m not here to debate its validity, but only say that it does raise concerns for me.

    I’ve never heard of that theology either. I wonder if that’s what actual Replacement Theology says, or just a ridiculous caricature of it. Replacement Theology says the Church replaces Israel as G-d’s people, but I’m fairly confident it’s not “upon the birth of Jesus.”

    Replacement Theology is itself something like a caricature of what the New Testament says. The best succinct phrasing I can give is: The Church grew out of Israel; Israel became the Church.

    Well, technically the word congregation or assembly, or what has been called the “church”, is a direct translation of the Hebrew word for congregation, and in the New Testament the Writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 2:12) shows that the Hebrew word applies to 1st-century Christians as well. The Hebrew congregation of the saints and the Christian congregation of the saints, at least according to the Scriptures, are one and the same congregation across time.

    I’m pretty sure Greek use of ecclesia and verbs like synago is meant to capture that same Hebrew terminology. They are references to it, via Septuagint use of the same vocab.

    I was referring to the congregation of Hebrews 2:12 which referred to Psalm 22:22: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

    Here the Greek word ecclesia is directly translated from qahal: assembly, company, congregation, multitude.  The Writer of Hebrews is referring to the Congregation of the Hebrew saints as the Congregation of the Christian saints; it is the same congregation over time.  So much so that some Christian translators of this passage even translate qahal as “church”.

     

    • #66
  7. Chuck Coolidge
    Chuck
    @Chuckles

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    [Cont’d]

    Turning to Romans 9:6-13, this seems generally consistent with the “Replacement Theology” discussed earlier. Paul seems to be saying that not all descendants of Jacob (or Abraham) count as “Israel,” and that some Gentiles also count as “Israel.” The “elect” — meaning the believers in Jesus who will be saved — include both Jews and non-Jews, and do not include all Jews.

    The end of this chapter in Romans does repeat the idea, previously discussed relating to Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, that God will punish the Israelites when they are disobedient, but will not completely wipe out their descendants.

    Does this answer your questions?

    Well, I asked what you thought of these so, yes. 

    • #67
  8. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn:

    The last trend that I wanted to share is something called Replacement Theology:

    I had not heard about this theology before, and wondered if others had. I’m not here to debate its validity, but only say that it does raise concerns for me.

    I’ve never heard of that theology either. I wonder if that’s what actual Replacement Theology says, or just a ridiculous caricature of it. Replacement Theology says the Church replaces Israel as G-d’s people, but I’m fairly confident it’s not “upon the birth of Jesus.”

    Replacement Theology is itself something like a caricature of what the New Testament says. The best succinct phrasing I can give is: The Church grew out of Israel; Israel became the Church.

    Well, technically the word congregation or assembly, or what has been called the “church”, is a direct translation of the Hebrew word for congregation, and in the New Testament the Writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 2:12) shows that the Hebrew word applies to 1st-century Christians as well. The Hebrew congregation of the saints and the Christian congregation of the saints, at least according to the Scriptures, are one and the same congregation across time.

    I’m pretty sure Greek use of ecclesia and verbs like synago is meant to capture that same Hebrew terminology. They are references to it, via Septuagint use of the same vocab.

    I was referring to the congregation of Hebrews 2:12 which referred to Psalm 22:22: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

    Here the Greek word ecclesia is directly translated from qahal: assembly, company, congregation, multitude. The Writer of Hebrews is referring to the Congregation of the Hebrew saints as the Congregation of the Christian saints; it is the same congregation over time. So much so that some Christian translators of this passage even translate qahal as “church”.

    Your point being that what I said you had already said?

    Looks like a pretty good point.

    • #68
  9. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn:

    The last trend that I wanted to share is something called Replacement Theology:

    I had not heard about this theology before, and wondered if others had. I’m not here to debate its validity, but only say that it does raise concerns for me.

    I’ve never heard of that theology either. I wonder if that’s what actual Replacement Theology says, or just a ridiculous caricature of it. Replacement Theology says the Church replaces Israel as G-d’s people, but I’m fairly confident it’s not “upon the birth of Jesus.”

    Replacement Theology is itself something like a caricature of what the New Testament says. The best succinct phrasing I can give is: The Church grew out of Israel; Israel became the Church.

    Well, technically the word congregation or assembly, or what has been called the “church”, is a direct translation of the Hebrew word for congregation, and in the New Testament the Writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 2:12) shows that the Hebrew word applies to 1st-century Christians as well. The Hebrew congregation of the saints and the Christian congregation of the saints, at least according to the Scriptures, are one and the same congregation across time.

    I’m pretty sure Greek use of ecclesia and verbs like synago is meant to capture that same Hebrew terminology. They are references to it, via Septuagint use of the same vocab.

    I was referring to the congregation of Hebrews 2:12 which referred to Psalm 22:22: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

    Here the Greek word ecclesia is directly translated from qahal: assembly, company, congregation, multitude. The Writer of Hebrews is referring to the Congregation of the Hebrew saints as the Congregation of the Christian saints; it is the same congregation over time. So much so that some Christian translators of this passage even translate qahal as “church”.

    Your point being that what I said you had already said?

    Looks like a pretty good point.

    Yeah, but I was being more specific.  Because this is one of the pivotal verses for me.  It clearly identifies the ancient Hebrew saints with the Hebrew Christians.  There is no “replacement”.

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cassandro (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn:

    The last trend that I wanted to share is something called Replacement Theology:

    I had not heard about this theology before, and wondered if others had. I’m not here to debate its validity, but only say that it does raise concerns for me.

    I’ve never heard of that theology either. I wonder if that’s what actual Replacement Theology says, or just a ridiculous caricature of it. Replacement Theology says the Church replaces Israel as G-d’s people, but I’m fairly confident it’s not “upon the birth of Jesus.”

    Replacement Theology is itself something like a caricature of what the New Testament says. The best succinct phrasing I can give is: The Church grew out of Israel; Israel became the Church.

    Well, technically the word congregation or assembly, or what has been called the “church”, is a direct translation of the Hebrew word for congregation, and in the New Testament the Writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 2:12) shows that the Hebrew word applies to 1st-century Christians as well. The Hebrew congregation of the saints and the Christian congregation of the saints, at least according to the Scriptures, are one and the same congregation across time.

    I’m pretty sure Greek use of ecclesia and verbs like synago is meant to capture that same Hebrew terminology. They are references to it, via Septuagint use of the same vocab.

    I was referring to the congregation of Hebrews 2:12 which referred to Psalm 22:22: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

    Here the Greek word ecclesia is directly translated from qahal: assembly, company, congregation, multitude. The Writer of Hebrews is referring to the Congregation of the Hebrew saints as the Congregation of the Christian saints; it is the same congregation over time. So much so that some Christian translators of this passage even translate qahal as “church”.

    Your point being that what I said you had already said?

    Looks like a pretty good point.

    Yeah, but I was being more specific. Because this is one of the pivotal verses for me. It clearly identifies the ancient Hebrew saints with the Hebrew Christians. There is no “replacement”.

    Preach!

    • #70
  11. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    I can’t remember the exact quote, but I believe it was Augustine who said, in effect, “Evangelize always. Use words when necessary.” In other words, we are to win others by our actions and our life.

    • #71
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    I can’t remember the exact quote, but I believe it was Augustine who said, in effect, “Evangelize always. Use words when necessary.” In other words, we are to win others by our actions and our life.

    In my head is St. Francis and “Preach the Gospel at all times; when necessary use words.”

    • #72
  13. Cassandro Coolidge
    Cassandro
    @Flicker

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    So here’s the question that comes up for me. If a Christian has an obligation to evangelize, is he prepared to withhold that effort when it’s not welcome? I assume the answer is yes. On the other hand, it seems like a valuable way to spread the “good news” is through one’s actions and behaviors. Would that also be correct?

    [signing off for the night– will be back tomorrow]

    Personally, I wasn’t saved by an evangelist, I was saved during a simple conversation, one that a house mate started in order to rebuke me for my speech.  He was surprised when I converted and he said that that wasn’t his intention.

    I think that a conversation between friends is fine, but first backing up what you might say by living righteously says a lot more.  But I don’t shy away from talking about it either.

    One time it came up at a job that I said — apropos of the content of conversation — that if you confess your sins God is righteous and just to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness, and my boss who was a Catholic looked at me like I was crazy, but took no offense.

    • #73
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    From belly of the beast (Jacobin).

    From the meek and mild Peter Beinart (Zionist).

    There’s also the cultural history to consider.  Jews weren’t traditionally oppressed by the Left in Europe – Jews were part of the Left because they were oppressed by the equivalents of today’s (mercifully philosemitic) Evangelicals (and more broadly the Right).  Who else was throwing regular pogroms over the centuries?

    And why would you place any trust in that pattern of thought just because today you’re on the list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we like’?  The list has changed in the past, it could change again tomorrow, the point is there shouldn’t be that kind of list at all – because its inevitable twin is that list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we don’t like’, and for equally self-referential and random reasons. It’s just not safe.

    • #74
  15. Podkayne of Israel Inactive
    Podkayne of Israel
    @PodkayneofIsrael

    “I have no problem with your discovering Jesus and embracing Jesus and putting your faith in Jesus – I actually support that. In fact, there’s a story about the Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov, founder of Chassidism, who wouldn’t ride with a wagon driver who didn’t wear a cross on his chest. He preferred to roam through the deserted tundra with a man who at least feared something—never mind the theological nuances.”

    The Baal Shem Tov’s driver was named Alexei, and he plays a part in many of the stories about the Baal Shem Tov. The legend is that they would need to get to another village and the Baal Shem Tov would arrange for the wagon to essentially teleport itself as needed, with Alexei still at the reins.

    Hassidic authorities have said that anybody who believes everything in every single Baal Shem Tov story is literally true is a fool, and anyone who believes that none of it is true is an even bigger fool.

    • #75
  16. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.  Could you vote in competitive multi-candidate elections?  Could you express views about public policy, including views that are at variance to those of the people in power?  Could you hold a women’s rights or gay rights rally without being arrested or put to death?

    Israel, unlike its neighbors in the region, passes those tests.

    So, as a non-religious person, I support Israel because if one uses philosopher John Rawls’ veil of ignorance thought experiement, it would be a nice country to live in.

    That’s not to say it would be number 1 on my list.  It’s just that it is far above about 100 other countries in terms of the basic human rights its citizens enjoy.

    • #76
  17. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Getting back to Leftist Jews, as with all Leftists, they are Leftists first, and everything else later; including Jews, and Americans. Everything they think, and learn , and know, is seen through the lens of Leftism.

    Yes. Their real religion is Leftism, not Judaism. The same thing holds for “Catholics” like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. When Catholic doctrine comes into conflict with Leftist ideology, leftist ideology always wins.

    • #77
  18. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Zafar (View Comment):
    And why would you place any trust in that pattern of thought just because today you’re on the list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we like’?  The list has changed in the past, it could change again tomorrow, the point is there shouldn’t be that kind of list at all – because its inevitable twin is that list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we don’t like’, and for equally self-referential and random reasons. It’s just not safe.

    The point is that we have to live in the real world. It’s pretty difficult to distrust everyone, every day. My attitude is that I “trust but verify.” I won’t hide my identity as a Jew. I don’t assume that everyone is pro-Jew or pro-Israel. I pay attention to what people say and do. But I’m not paranoid. In world history, Jews have rarely been safe. So it is wise to pay attention to world events and acts of anti-Semitism. It’s the balance that counts, at least for me.

    • #78
  19. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    My experience is that many Jews on the Left are critical of Israel because of their relationship with the Palestinians. When you see life through the lens of the oppressed and the oppressor, the oppressed almost always wins with Leftist Jews. When we were weak and less powerful, then people were willing to support us; now that Israel has shown its strength, it’s seen as the oppressor by the Left.

    • #79
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    When you see life through the lens of the oppressed and the oppressor, the oppressed almost always wins with Leftist Jews.

    I bet we around here can think of a few oppressed groups pretty much all the lefties overlooked.

    • #80
  21. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):
    He was not a communist; nor was Arafat

    That’s a knee slapper!

    I seem to recall that Haj Amin al Hussein was more of a fascist (albeit a thoroughly Islamic one.) Is that incorrect?

    You have it right. He was sucking up to Hitler, yemach shemo, who greatly admired the intensity of al Husseini’s Jew hatred. 

    • #81
  22. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.

    Would you enjoy equal rights, de facto as well as de jure, regardless of your ethnicity, religion or gender?  Yes, reasonable measures.

    And the State of Israel controls more than the State of Israel.  I’m not talking about the  US Congress, of course, I’m talking about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.  How do these places fare when it comes to human freedoms – political, but also things like freedom of movement?  It’s dishonest to leave them out when assessing basic human rights under Israeli rule.

     

    • #82
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    And why would you place any trust in that pattern of thought just because today you’re on the list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we like’? The list has changed in the past, it could change again tomorrow, the point is there shouldn’t be that kind of list at all – because its inevitable twin is that list of ethnoreligious groups ‘we don’t like’, and for equally self-referential and random reasons. It’s just not safe.

    The point is that we have to live in the real world. It’s pretty difficult to distrust everyone, every day. My attitude is that I “trust but verify.” I won’t hide my identity as a Jew. I don’t assume that everyone is pro-Jew or pro-Israel.

    I am pro you and anti Israel.  And I will never be anti you because you’re Jewish.  Or pro anybody because they’re Muslim.  That’s my point.  Ethnoreligious identity is not a morally sound reason to be pro or anti anybody.  You cannot trust a morality that validates that kind of reasoning.

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    My experience is that many Jews on the Left are critical of Israel because of their relationship with the Palestinians. When you see life through the lens of the oppressed and the oppressor, the oppressed almost always wins with Leftist Jews. When we were weak and less powerful, then people were willing to support us; now that Israel has shown its strength, it’s seen as the oppressor by the Left.

    Or Israel has actually become more clearly oppressive.  It’s not who Israel is, it’s what Israel does that matters.

    • #83
  24. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.

    Would you enjoy equal rights, de facto as well as de jure, regardless of your ethnicity, religion or gender? Yes, reasonable measures.

    And the State of Israel controls more than the State of Israel. I’m not talking about the US Congress, of course, I’m talking about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. How do these places fare when it comes to human freedoms – political, but also things like freedom of movement? It’s dishonest to leave them out when assessing basic human rights under Israeli rule.

    Israel controls the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza because Israel’s neighbors repeatedly tried to wipe out Israel and its people. As for freedom of movement, all those checkpoints are in place to prevent terrorist attacks–just like those “oppressive” walls. You know this, but conveniently forget it. It is grossly dishonest for you to call these things a denial of human rights.

    • #84
  25. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.

    Would you enjoy equal rights, de facto as well as de jure, regardless of your ethnicity, religion or gender? Yes, reasonable measures.

    And the State of Israel controls more than the State of Israel. I’m not talking about the US Congress, of course, I’m talking about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. How do these places fare when it comes to human freedoms – political, but also things like freedom of movement? It’s dishonest to leave them out when assessing basic human rights under Israeli rule.

    I dismiss your conspiracy theory that “Israel controls the US Congress,” at least that is what you seem to have implied.

    But to the other points you have raised, there is a legitimate debate over what Israel should do with respect to territory that has, in recent history, been used as a launching pad for attacks against Israel.

    But even if one thinks that Israel’s policies regarding the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are immoral, Israel still has a human rights record that is superior to at least 100 other countries.

    Notice, however, that the United Nations and many Leftists/progressives spend a lot more time criticizing Israel than Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Russia and so on.

    In some sense this just represents the low expectations people have of Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China and Russia.

    Of course Iran’s government is going to put people in jail for listening to “infidel” (western pop) music.  Of course Iran’s government is going to put women in prison for refusing to be veiled in public.  Of course Iran’s government is going to fund terrorist groups that bomb Jewish schools in South America.  Of course  China is going to enslave its minority population.  Of course Putin’s Russia is going to bomb hospitals, schools and apartment buildings.

    Israel isn’t perfect, but it does do a better job of protecting human rights than all but several dozen countries in the world.

    • #85
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.

    Would you enjoy equal rights, de facto as well as de jure, regardless of your ethnicity, religion or gender? Yes, reasonable measures.

    And the State of Israel controls more than the State of Israel. I’m not talking about the US Congress, of course, I’m talking about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. How do these places fare when it comes to human freedoms – political, but also things like freedom of movement? It’s dishonest to leave them out when assessing basic human rights under Israeli rule.

    Israel controls the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza because Israel’s neighbors repeatedly tried to wipe out Israel and its people. As for freedom of movement, all those checkpoints are in place to prevent terrorist attacks–just like those “oppressive” walls. You know this, but conveniently forget it. It is grossly dishonest for you to call these things a denial of human rights.

    This is Zafar’s “progressive” schtick.  He uses the fact that Israel attempts to defend itself against perpetual attack from proxy forces, mostly funded by Iran, as a reason to criticize Israel.  Any nation that followed the advice of Israel’s critics would be destroyed.  That’s the point of singling Israel out while many other nations behave far worse and are not subjected to a fraction of the criticism Israel receives.  

    • #86
  27. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Of course Iran’s government is going to put people in jail for listening to “infidel” (western pop) music.

    Don’t forget what Arab rulers in the West Bank, Gaza, Syria and Lebanon do to people they don’t like.

    EDIT: And how could I have failed to mention Egypt? Where, as in the rest of Israel’s neighbors, incitement to genocide has been routine for generations.

    • #87
  28. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan, in your OP you cite Evangelical support for Israel as a reason for Jewish Lefties to be more pro Evangelical. But how do Jewish Lefties perceive Israel and why?

    One question to ask about any nation, including Israel, is whether one could enjoy basic human rights if one lived there.

    Would you enjoy equal rights, de facto as well as de jure, regardless of your ethnicity, religion or gender? Yes, reasonable measures.

    And the State of Israel controls more than the State of Israel. I’m not talking about the US Congress, of course, I’m talking about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. How do these places fare when it comes to human freedoms – political, but also things like freedom of movement? It’s dishonest to leave them out when assessing basic human rights under Israeli rule.

    Israel controls the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza because Israel’s neighbors repeatedly tried to wipe out Israel and its people. As for freedom of movement, all those checkpoints are in place to prevent terrorist attacks–just like those “oppressive” walls. You know this, but conveniently forget it. It is grossly dishonest for you to call these things a denial of human rights.

    This is Zafar’s “progressive” schtick. He uses the fact that Israel attempts to defend itself against perpetual attack from proxy forces, mostly funded by Iran, as a reason to criticize Israel. Any nation that followed the advice of Israel’s critics would be destroyed. That’s the point of singling Israel out while many other nations behave far worse and are not subjected to a fraction of the criticism Israel receives.

    It’s a “human rights violation” to prevent your enemies from killing you.

    But it is both a “progressive” schtick and a Muslim schtick.

    • #88
  29. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Jews weren’t traditionally oppressed by the Left in Europe – Jews were part of the Left

    except that where they had power, Leftist Jews tended to oppress religious Jews and disadvantage Jewish practice. Probably the most well known example was the Yevsektzia, the Jewish Section of the CPUSSR. Its job was to stamp out Judaism and Zionism, but particularly Judaism. Some of its members were, shall we say, enthusiastic.

     

    • #89
  30. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Younger Evangelical Christians are increasingly distancing from Israel and are less likely to see any theological significance in the Jewish people.

    Then they weren’t raised right.

    What is more concerning is that it is likely correlated with the fact that more young people are adopting Replacement Theology—believing that upon the birth of Jesus, the Jewish people ceased its role as the chosen people and the Church subsequently replaced them.

    To believe that, one would have to believe that God’s covenant with His chosen people came with an expiration date. Stuff and nonsense.

    I am surprised that replacement theology would be popular with the younger crowd. Way back when, it would have seemed like it would take a miracle for Israel to ever exist again so some tried to give God a way out (Hint: He didn’t need it). But for believers who grew up after the resurrection of Israel, how do you not see that God is still working through His chosen people?

    At least some see it as Satanic.

    Here’s an example of that:

    If you still haven’t grasped that we’re living in an entirely post-ideological age, the fact that the fake democracies of corrupted Christendom are now gearing up for war against Christian Russia (Right), Communist China (Left), Hindu Nationalist India (?), and Shi’ite portion of the dar-al-Islam (NA) should suffice to convince you.

    Nationalism vs Globalism is the only international political metric that matters anymore, while state-level politics are now mostly identity-based. And, of course, underneath it all lies the age-old war of the Serpent against the Creator and His Son.

    That’s the situation. Concerns about Russian imperialism or the Left-Right political axis is about as relevant as Athenian imperialism or the Blue-Green factions in Byzantium.

    That’s Vox Day. As a nationalist, he approves of Israeli (and Chinese, and Russian) nationalism, and thinks that the Jewish presence in other nations (in particular, the US,) is largely Satanic and is mostly protecting and promoting what he refers to as “globohomo.”

    • #90
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