Temple Worship in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

I recently read the post of Mr. iWe, an Orthodox Jew who had the opportunity to visit the open house of the Washington DC Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  As a member of the Church, I am grateful to Mr. iWe for keeping an open mind as he sought to understand our belief system from the framework of his own. His essay left me realizing that there are aspects of our temple worship that are universally misunderstood, even by the most open-minded observers. I wish to address those points now. 

In order to understand the significance of temple worship in our lives, let me share our fundamental doctrines and then explain how temple worship fits into this framework.  Like most Christian faiths, we believe all humans are God’s children. We believe Him to be the literal Father of our spirits as well as the creator of our physical bodies. As our Father, He knows each of us individually by name and personality. We also believe we have a Heavenly Mother. Not much has been revealed about Her, except the reality of Her existence. We believe the family unit of a father, a mother, and children to be the order of Heaven. 

We believe we lived as spirits with our Heavenly Parents, learning and growing in progression.  But we could not remain as spirits forever.  We believe God has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as the bodies we have.  As His children, it is our privilege to grow to become like our Father, including inheriting the physical form as He has.  So this earth was created as the place where we could receive physical bodies and learn to use them properly as He does.  

We believe the purpose of our time here on earth is to see if we “will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command” (Abraham 3:25, The Pearl of Great Price) and develop within ourselves the godly attributes of love, wisdom, and mercy. In order for this earthly experience to be of any effect, we have the gift of agency, the right to choose whether or not we will obey His commandments.  We also have a veil of forgetfulness drawn over our minds, so we do not remember our time with Him as spirits.  Because of these things and the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are mortal, and prone to make mistakes and poor choices. We believe that “no unclean thing​ can inherit the ​​​kingdom​ of heaven.” (3 Nephi 27:19, Book of Mormon; Cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9, KJV) That is why Jesus Christ, known as Jehovah in the Old Testament, volunteered to come to earth to pay the price of all our sins, becoming the Savior, the Redeemer of our souls, the Great and Last Sacrifice. He is the key to our salvation.  Without Him, none of us can make it back to our Father in Heaven.  If we accept Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf, change our ways to align ourselves with God’s commandments, and endure in righteousness, we can receive all the blessings of Heaven our Father desires to give us. 

In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we understand that the best way to accept the Savior’s atoning sacrifice and obtain the blessings of Heaven is to follow the “covenant path.”  The covenant path begins with baptism and is a progression of covenants, or promises we make with God, and ordinances, or specific set rituals to ratify these promises.  Most of these covenants and ordinances are performed in our dedicated temples by the authority of the priesthood—the authority to act in God’s name

Many outside our faith complain that what we do in the temple is secret and therefore somehow nefarious. I would say that what we do in the temple is open for anyone to learn about. The covenants we make in the temples are promises to serve God, follow the Savior’s example, and serve our fellow man.  In return we are promised God’s power to accomplish this work of service He asks of us. The ordinances to ratify these covenants are, like baptism, an outward sign of our inner commitment. We do not share with the world the specific words involved in the ceremonies or the details of the ordinances, not because they are secret or nefarious, but because we consider them highly sacred in nature. To reveal such details we believe will bring us under condemnation by God. So we try to follow the example of Mary, the mother of Jesus, who, regarding the sacred details of His conception and birth, “kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.” (Luke 2:19, KJV)

The temple covenants and ordinances are of ancient date. While many consider us a new church, we are actually a restored church. We believe ours to be God’s true church, the same as He established with Adam and Eve. It was established with each of the ancient patriarchs, later established in modified form during the days of ancient Israel, and fleshed out to fullness by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry. The knowledge of these covenants, the doctrine behind them, and the priesthood authority to administer the ordinances thereof were lost upon the martyrdom of His apostles and restored by Jesus Christ in these latter days through the prophet Joseph Smith.  We believe the same ordinances we participate in during temple ceremonies were administered to Adam and Eve, to provide them with spiritual guidance and protection as they left the Garden of Eden. We further believe that these same ordinances were administered to each of the ancient patriarchs and to all sincere followers of righteousness whenever the fullness of the Lord’s priesthood has been on the earth.  These ordinances bind us directly to the Savior and His strength. When we partake of the sacrament each week, we not only remember and internalize the Savior’s atoning sacrifice for each of us, we also renew the covenants we have made, from baptism to each temple ordinance, promising again to accept the Savior’s grace and to serve Him in all we do.

Since we understand the order of Heaven is to be organized into families, we believe the highest, holiest ordinance on the covenant path is that of marriage between a man and a woman.  The apostle Paul wrote, “neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:11, KJV) The ordinance of marriage in the temple is known as the “sealing ordinance” because that marriage is then sealed in Heaven as well as on earth and will last through eternity if we live according to God’s commandments.  Children born to couples who have made this covenant are automatically eternally sealed to their parents.  Children who are adopted may be sealed to their adoptive families, as if they had been born under that covenant.  

One of the most vociferous complaints I have heard through the years is the exclusivity of our temple worship.  The greatest ire stems from those who those not of our faith who wish to witness the sealing ordinance of a relative or friend. I even had one person crossly ask me, “Can’t you issue day passes or something?”

We do not wish to be exclusive.  Temples are open to all who meet the criteria to enter. That is the way temples work. In ancient temples, certain courtyards were open to anyone, including strangers not of the faith of Israel. However, the further one went into the temple, the more exclusive the access became, until one reached the Holy of Holies, which only the high priest could enter under certain circumstances. In modern temples, any baptized member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over the age of twelve may enter the part of the temple where the baptismal font is located. They may participate in the ordinance of proxy baptism for those who have died without the knowledge of God in the world. Anyone wishing to enter the other parts of the temple must be prepared to enter into the sacred covenants I have mentioned above. No one else may enter. 

When we enter a dedicated temple, we believe we are standing upon holy ground, symbolically meeting God face to face. This is not an experience to be undertaken lightly. When ancient Israel approached Mount Sinai, the Lord commanded Moses to have the people prepare and sanctify themselves for three days in order to meet Him on the mountain. (Mountains, by the way, function as temples in the absence of built and consecrated structures.) Even with that preparation, greater Israel felt unworthy for such a meeting and instead a smaller group consisting of Moses, Aaron, a few other leaders, and seventy elders went up the mountain for that theophany. 

One of the reasons why we are so active in sharing the gospel and sending out missionaries the world over is we want everyone in the world to come and participate in the ordinances of the temple. We are all God’s children and He wants all of us to return home to Him.  But again, we must choose to follow the covenant path that He has laid out.  Just as there are no curious or casual observers admitted into Heaven, we cannot allow anyone unprepared or unwilling to enter sacred covenants with God to enter the temples—symbolically Heaven on earth. Couples who have family and friends who cannot attend the temple sealing are often encouraged to do a civil service or ring ceremony outside the temple in addition to the temple ceremony. In some countries, such as Great Britain, this is even required by the government. 

I would like to finish by sharing a personal experience of what temple worship means to me.  At the beginning of this year, my husband and I were overjoyed to learn we would be welcoming identical twin boys into the world as part of our family.  Our two older children were excited to see the beautiful process of giving life.  Three weeks ago, at a normal doctor check-up, we learned that the baby boys had died in utero.  We are naturally grieving over this news.  However, we understand that “little children are alive in Christ” (Moroni 8:12, Book of Mormon) and are redeemed from the Fall of Adam through the Savior’s Atonement.  Because of the covenants my husband and I have made in the temple, particularly having our marriage sealed for time and all eternity, we know that our little boys are still part of our family.  Furthermore, we have the great promise that we will be able to raise them from infancy to adulthood after the resurrection.  This knowledge provides solace that I cannot describe and is allowing our family to move forward.  We are a family of six.  Two are just a little farther along in their eternal progression than the rest of us.  We now have additional motivation to stay on the covenant path back to our Heavenly Father.

It is the Savior’s atoning sacrifice that makes this all possible, and nowhere do we see the effects of His Grace more than in the temple.  Everything about our temples points to and testifies of Jesus Christ and His mission.  He is the only way back to our Heavenly Home, united as families.

Additional Resources:
Follow Him Podcast with Hank Smith and John Bytheway—Exodus 35-40, Leviticus 1; 16; 19. Guest: Dr. Matthew Grey
Marriage, Family Law, and the Temple, by Elder Bruce C. Hafen

Published in Religion & Philosophy
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  1. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Juliana (View Comment):

    Nicole –
    Thank you for your enlightening post. I always admire the family focus of the tv commercials produced by the Church of the Latter Day Saints, and it is good to have a more thorough understanding of the faith of others.
    I would like to express my sympathy for the physical loss of your baby boys. As a Catholic, I also believe that our family members and our greater family of saints are waiting for us to join them. (I have a tendency to, in my heart, check in with my late father, a carpenter, when I do something I think he would appreciate.) This is but a reminder to us that our time on Earth is limited and a much greater future awaits. May God bless you and your family.

    Thank you for your heartfelt sympathy, Juliana.  Yes, the Story continues.  I am glad you check in with your father.  I believe the spirits of those we love are often closer than we know.

    • #31
  2. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):

    Nicole,

    Going by your statement, the privacy of temples is based on the idea of excluding those not consecrated. If someone were to install a webcam and live-stream a ceremony, would that not be acceptable? I mean, in temples of old, someone could climb a tower or hill and look into a space they could not enter like an inner courtyard.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the doctrine of the Trinity is a Big Deal for Christians. There was one of the greatest struggles between in the early church, with people being killed by the opposing sides. That was before the Middle Ages or even the split between Catholics and Orthodox. This is why people refer to LDS as “not Christians” like Jehovah’s Witnesses. (I have never seen any evidence of LDS people being anywhere near as controlling as JW leadership though)

    To everyone here: If you have never been to the HQ in Salt Lake City, it’s both gorgeous and an extremely well-done presentation of their faith’s history. Other churches need to step up their game.

    Here’s a bonus to celebrate your first post, Nicole, from one of my favorite Youtube channels:

    Dear OmegaPaladin,

    Regarding your suggestion of live-streaming temple ceremonies: we believe that is not in keeping with the sacred spirit of the ordinances therein.  As we have emerged from the pandemic restrictions and have been able to meet as congregations again, we live-stream our sacrament meetings.  But we turn the cameras and audio off for the ordinance of the sacrament itself.  It is considered too sacred to stream even that.  The exception seems to be living baptisms.  We actually just live-streamed our son’s baptism so family members outside the state could witness it.  It do not know why this one ordinance is an exception, but it seems to be.

    And thank you for the link to the video.  It looks interesting.

    Sincerely,

    Nicole

    • #32
  3. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Also, does the final chapter in the Bible – Revelation not say that nothing is to be added after this book (it very specifically states that), and the Book of Mormon is indeed an add-on?

     

    What does the use of the term add-on mean? Wasn’t the Book of Mormon allegedly produced before the New Testament Book of Revelations? If so, not an add-on.

    The Book of Mormon was published in 1830 after the angelic visitation to 17 year old Joseph Smith in 1823.

    I understand the events you describe. The material delivered for publication by Joseph Smith had existed for millennia before the translation to English.

    Correct.  Joseph Smith is the translator of the Book of Mormon, not the author.  He translated it by the gift and power of God.  The original record was written and compiled from 600 B.C. to 400 A.D (approximately). The name, the Book of Mormon, was taken from the main compiler of the record, an ancient prophet on the American continents, whose name was Mormon.

    • #33
  4. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    If you’re arguing that your theology is TRUTH while others are lies and deception, sell it somewhere else.  Call me a secular conservative.  If I’m a threat to your religion, then your God is weak.

    • #34
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    No.  There is one God, and that is our Heavenly Father, whom we worship.  The work that the Savior did and does is His Father’s work.  He said Himself, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.” (John 5:19, KJV).  In worshiping the Son, we really worship the Father.  We believe that we, like the Savior, can become like God the Father, by following Jesus’ example and accepting His atoning sacrifice on our behalf. But we do not worship, or pray to multiple gods.  We pray to our Heavenly Father alone, in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Hmm.  That seems to go at odds with what Wikipedia says.  I know Wikipedia is no authority.  From Wikipedia:

    In orthodox Mormonism, the term God generally refers to the biblical God the Father, whom Latter Day Saints refer to as Elohim,[26][27][28] and the term Godhead refers to a council of three distinct divine persons consisting of God the Father, Jesus Christ (his firstborn Son, whom Latter Day Saints refer to as Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost.[26][28] Latter Day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, and that the Father and Jesus have perfected, glorified, physical bodies, while the Holy Ghost is a spirit without a physical body.[26][29][30] Latter Day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother—who is the wife of God the Father—and that faithful Latter-day Saints may attain godhood in the afterlife.[31] Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man on another planet before being exalted to Godhood.

    That sounds like polytheism to me.  And if you say that the Father, the son, and the holy ghost are not one and different beings, doesn’t that make them either (1) each gods or (2) two out of the three non god?  And what is this wife of the heavenly father?  Is she a god too?  Is Wikipedia wrong?

    • #35
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    Plus debating theology has changed minds many times. Made me a Calvinist and then not a Calvinist.

    Not a lot of other changes of what I do believe, but I’ve sure added a lot to what I believe from theological debates.

    • #36
  7. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    As to the conception of Jesus Christ, we do not know the details.  Only Mary knows that.  We only know what is written in the scriptures, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, KJV).

    I would say that makes it clear it’s the Holy Ghost that does the conception but if you don’t believe in the Trinity then I can see how it could be open to interpretation.  So you don’t believe God the Father as a man physically impregnated Mary?  

    I also found this on Wikipedia:

    According to Mormon scripture, the Earth’s creation was not ex nihilo, but organized from existing matter.

    Is that true?  There was existing matter before God created the universe?  Who would have created the existing matter?

    • #37
  8. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    Plus debating theology has changed minds many times. Made me a Calvinist and then not a Calvinist.

    Not a lot of other changes of what I do believe, but I’ve sure added a lot to what I believe from theological debates.

    As long as people are respectful, I think it does everyone good to learn about other religious beliefs.  Especially given that we on the right are more and more made up of religious coalitions.  I really appreciate the political conservatives in the LDS Church.  (Except Mitt Romney…lol.)

    • #38
  9. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Manny (View Comment):
    I really appreciate the political conservatives in the LDS Church.  (Except Mitt Romney…lol.)

    Heh.  You already excluded him when you said “conservatives”.

    • #39
  10. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    BDB (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I really appreciate the political conservatives in the LDS Church. (Except Mitt Romney…lol.)

    Heh. You already excluded him when you said “conservatives”.

    Yes, I realized that.  ;)

    • #40
  11. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    If you’re arguing that your theology is TRUTH while others are lies and deception, sell it somewhere else. Call me a secular conservative. If I’m a threat to your religion, then your God is weak.

    No, I was simply asking the question I asked: Does it matter whether our values correspond to truth? Apparently I hit a nerve with you linking moral value and truth, which it looks like you believe can only be done through theology. Thus your assumption that I must be actually arguing some theology is TRUTH, even though I never mentioned God or theology.

    My question, however, was inspired by Plato and Aristotle, and particularly Socrates (see the Euthyphro in particular), secular philosophers who made that link, and I’ve often argued on Ricochet that religious belief is not necessary to knowing moral truth. If linking moral values to truth is a threat to your secular philosophy, your secular philosophy is weak.

    Try Plato or Aristotle.

    Peace.

    • #41
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    Try Plato or Aristotle.

    I concur.

    • #42
  13. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    If you’re arguing that your theology is TRUTH while others are lies and deception, sell it somewhere else. Call me a secular conservative. If I’m a threat to your religion, then your God is weak.

    No, I was simply asking the question I asked: Does it matter whether our values correspond to truth? Apparently I hit a nerve with you linking moral value and truth, which it looks like you believe can only be done through theology. Thus your assumption that I must be actually arguing some theology is TRUTH, even though I never mentioned God or theology.

    My question, however, was inspired by Plato and Aristotle, and particularly Socrates (see the Euthyphro in particular), secular philosophers who made that link, and I’ve often argued on Ricochet that religious belief is not necessary to knowing moral truth. If linking moral values to truth is a threat to your secular philosophy, your secular philosophy is weak.

    Try Plato or Aristotle.

    Peace.

    Then clearly I misunderstood your question.  Please make a statement.  I am not your student and do not appreciate being boxed about by Socratic “questioning”.

    • #43
  14. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    If you’re arguing that your theology is TRUTH while others are lies and deception, sell it somewhere else. Call me a secular conservative. If I’m a threat to your religion, then your God is weak.

    No, I was simply asking the question I asked: Does it matter whether our values correspond to truth? Apparently I hit a nerve with you linking moral value and truth, which it looks like you believe can only be done through theology. Thus your assumption that I must be actually arguing some theology is TRUTH, even though I never mentioned God or theology.

    My question, however, was inspired by Plato and Aristotle, and particularly Socrates (see the Euthyphro in particular), secular philosophers who made that link, and I’ve often argued on Ricochet that religious belief is not necessary to knowing moral truth. If linking moral values to truth is a threat to your secular philosophy, your secular philosophy is weak.

    Try Plato or Aristotle.

    Peace.

    Then clearly I misunderstood your question. Please make a statement. I am not your student and do not appreciate being boxed about by Socratic “questioning”.

    Yes, we are apparently talking past each other.  I wasn’t trying to be Socratic, any more than I was pushing theology. I thought I did make a statement in my original comment:

    “If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.”

    So whether our values are based on theology, secular philosophy, or whatever, the fact that we agree on them and are friends based on that agreement seems of secondary importance. Far more important is whether those values are good or evil.  In fact, agreeing on evil values I would think is worse than disagreeing about them.

    • #44
  15. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Dennis Prager has a great line. “It is pointless to debate theology. Everybody’s theology looks silly to those of another theology. What matters is values. A person with your values is your friend regardless of theology.”

    Or something like that.

    That’s why he’s my Rabbi, and I’m not even Jewish.

    Doesn’t it matter whether our values correspond to the truth? If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.

    If you’re arguing that your theology is TRUTH while others are lies and deception, sell it somewhere else. Call me a secular conservative. If I’m a threat to your religion, then your God is weak.

    [snipped a bit here for length]

    Yes, we are apparently talking past each other. I wasn’t trying to be Socratic, any more than I was pushing theology. I thought I did make a statement in my original comment:

    “If we share the same values, but our values are evil, we might be friends but it just means we support each other in our wickedness.”

    So whether our values are based on theology, secular philosophy, or whatever, the fact that we agree on them and are friends based on that agreement seems of secondary importance. Far more important is whether those values are good or evil. In fact, agreeing on evil values I would think is worse than disagreeing about them.

    So here’s my apparent misunderstanding: I agree that friends aligned on evil values are evil.  Yet that is an assessment of those values.  If those two people then go about debating their seemingly malfunctioning theologies, there’s no point to it.

    We could require theology (that is, not be able to ignore it) in order to assess the values only if we define values as not including points which are good or evil.  That seems to strain at what values are, however.  To me.

    I hold that good and evil may be identified without resort to theology.  Perhaps this is an axiom leading us to apparent disagreement.

    Not putting words in your mouth — just trying to fill in the blanks.  Let me know if I’m wrong about this potential disagreement.

    • #45
  16. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Not putting words in your mouth — just trying to fill in the blanks. Let me know if I’m wrong about this potential disagreement.

    I agree that good and evil can be known without resort to theology – perhaps not completely, but to a large extent. The evil of abortion, for example, is something that I think can be known without resort to theology, despite the left’s attempt to characterize opposition to abortion as necessarily based in religion.

    As a Catholic of course I think that the highest moral truth has been revealed by God, but our problem in this country isn’t that we are neglecting the highest moral truths, but that we deny common sense moral truths that are available to anyone – like the moral truth that we shouldn’t be exposing six year olds in our schools to sexual realities that can be handled only by the mature.

    The Catholic Church has traditionally held that natural moral truth is available to anyone of good will and reasonable mind. Jesus Christ did not need to die on a Cross for us to know that things like fraud, murder, extortion and adultery are wrong. We can figure that out on our own. Their are some progressives who like to claim that Jesus was OK with homosexuality because he never explicitly condemned it. Well, he never explicitly condemned pederasty either, but that’s just because everyone already knew these things were wrong.

    So I disagree with a lot of Mormon theology, as well as a lot of other religion’s theologies. But natural moral reason allows us all to reason together to discover an acceptable way to live together, in terms of common moral reason.

    • #46
  17. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    So I disagree with a lot of Mormon theology, as well as a lot of other religion’s theologies. But natural moral reason allows us all to reason together to discover an acceptable way to live together, in terms of common moral reason.

    Which is the point I was making and I believe the point Prager made.  Your agreement sounded like disagreement to me :-)

    • #47
  18. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    So I disagree with a lot of Mormon theology, as well as a lot of other religion’s theologies. But natural moral reason allows us all to reason together to discover an acceptable way to live together, in terms of common moral reason.

    Which is the point I was making and I believe the point Prager made. Your agreement sounded like disagreement to me :-)

    Prager believes in the Divine Command theory of morality: Things are wrong because God says they are wrong. So for him moral truth is directly linked to theology.  What if our theologies are not the same? Well, for Prager it doesn’t matter as long as our values end up the same so we can be friends. But that means at least some of us have come to those values for the wrong reasons (i.e. whomever doesn’t have the correct theology).  Maybe all of us have come to those values for the wrong reasons. Certainly Prager thinks secularists necessarily come to their values through the wrong reasons, since they can only have moral opinions, not moral facts. (This is Prager’s view, not mine). But they can be our friends as well if they happen to share our values.

    So this friendship is not based on a rationally defensible morality derived from our common moral reason -i.e., moral truth we are all capable of recognizing – but the accident that we happen to agree in our values. That’s a thin reed to hang friendship on, and it also fails to distinguish friendships based on moral evil from those based on moral good. If what matters is that our values agree and we can be friends on that basis, what of heroin addicts who share the value that heroin is wonderful and they help each other maintain their addictions? 

     

    • #48
  19. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    So I disagree with a lot of Mormon theology, as well as a lot of other religion’s theologies. But natural moral reason allows us all to reason together to discover an acceptable way to live together, in terms of common moral reason.

    Which is the point I was making and I believe the point Prager made. Your agreement sounded like disagreement to me :-)

    Prager believes in the Divine Command theory of morality: Things are wrong because God says they are wrong. So for him moral truth is directly linked to theology. What if our theologies are not the same? Well, for Prager it doesn’t matter as long as our values end up the same so we can be friends. But that means at least some of us have come to those values for the wrong reasons (i.e. whomever doesn’t have the correct theology). Maybe all of us have come to those values for the wrong reasons. Certainly Prager thinks secularists necessarily come to their values through the wrong reasons, since they can only have moral opinions, not moral facts. (This is Prager’s view, not mine). But they can be our friends as well if they happen to share our values.

    So this friendship is not based on a rationally defensible morality derived from our common moral reason -i.e., moral truth we are all capable of recognizing – but the accident that we happen to agree in our values. That’s a thin reed to hang friendship on, and it also fails to distinguish friendships based on moral evil from those based on moral good. If what matters is that our values agree and we can be friends on that basis, what of heroin addicts who share the value that heroin is wonderful and they help each other maintain their addictions?

     

    Not sure what you’re reaching for here.  You’ve ejected morality from values.

    I disagree with Prager on some things.  He says that blood is nothing — I say it matters.  He says that only religion can produce grounded morality.  I say that religion is one way in which humans generate morality, and a pretty good one.  But there are other ways.  I am agnostic, so we will simply differ on that.

    • #49
  20. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Thank you. That helps me with my own understanding of the Trinity concept. 

    • #50
  21. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Manny (View Comment):

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    No. There is one God, and that is our Heavenly Father, whom we worship. The work that the Savior did and does is His Father’s work. He said Himself, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.” (John 5:19, KJV). In worshiping the Son, we really worship the Father. We believe that we, like the Savior, can become like God the Father, by following Jesus’ example and accepting His atoning sacrifice on our behalf. But we do not worship, or pray to multiple gods. We pray to our Heavenly Father alone, in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Hmm. That seems to go at odds with what Wikipedia says. I know Wikipedia is no authority. From Wikipedia:

    In orthodox Mormonism, the term God generally refers to the biblical God the Father, whom Latter Day Saints refer to as Elohim,[26][27][28] and the term Godhead refers to a council of three distinct divine persons consisting of God the Father, Jesus Christ (his firstborn Son, whom Latter Day Saints refer to as Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost.[26][28] Latter Day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, and that the Father and Jesus have perfected, glorified, physical bodies, while the Holy Ghost is a spirit without a physical body.[26][29][30] Latter Day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother—who is the wife of God the Father—and that faithful Latter-day Saints may attain godhood in the afterlife.[31] Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man on another planet before being exalted to Godhood.

    That sounds like polytheism to me. And if you say that the Father, the son, and the holy ghost are not one and different beings, doesn’t that make them either (1) each gods or (2) two out of the three non god? And what is this wife of the heavenly father? Is she a god too? Is Wikipedia wrong?

    Dear Manny,

    As I said before, we believe we have a Heavenly Mother. But we do not pray to her or direct our worship toward her. We worship and pray only to our Heavenly Father, the great Elohim, in the name of Jesus Christ. There are no other gods that we worship or pray to. 

    For more information on the Godhead, I suggest you read this.

    Sincerely,

    Nicole

    • #51
  22. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Manny (View Comment):

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    As to the conception of Jesus Christ, we do not know the details. Only Mary knows that. We only know what is written in the scriptures, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, KJV).

    I would say that makes it clear it’s the Holy Ghost that does the conception but if you don’t believe in the Trinity then I can see how it could be open to interpretation. So you don’t believe God the Father as a man physically impregnated Mary?

    I also found this on Wikipedia:

    According to Mormon scripture, the Earth’s creation was not ex nihilo, but organized from existing matter.

    Is that true? There was existing matter before God created the universe? Who would have created the existing matter?

    Once again, the only person who knows the details of Jesus’ conception is Mary, His mother. It is not for any of the rest of us to speculate on the how. The scriptures are clear. Mary was a virgin. And the angel, Gabriel, declared, “with God, nothing shall be impossible.” (Luke 1: 37, KJV). Anyone who says more than this is speaking without knowledge. If they declare our doctrine on the subject to be anything beyond what is written in the scriptures, they do so incorrectly. 

    Regarding creation of the earth (not the universe): yes, we believe matter is not created or destroyed, but rather organized or unorganized.  Therefore, we believe that God formed the earth from already existing matter.

    • #52
  23. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Manny (View Comment):

      •  
    • I remember seeing iWe’s post and while I didn’t spend a lot of time reading it thoroughly I was somewhat surprised that an Orthodox Jew would praising a religion that at its heart has multiple gods.

    If you measure a faith by its fruits, then LDS is clearly praiseworthy. 

    • #53
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    As to the conception of Jesus Christ, we do not know the details. Only Mary knows that. We only know what is written in the scriptures, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, KJV).

    I would say that makes it clear it’s the Holy Ghost that does the conception but if you don’t believe in the Trinity then I can see how it could be open to interpretation. So you don’t believe God the Father as a man physically impregnated Mary?

    I also found this on Wikipedia:

    According to Mormon scripture, the Earth’s creation was not ex nihilo, but organized from existing matter.

    Is that true? There was existing matter before God created the universe? Who would have created the existing matter?

    Once again, the only person who knows the details of Jesus’ conception is Mary, His mother. It is not for any of the rest of us to speculate on the how. The scriptures are clear. Mary was a virgin. And the angel, Gabriel, declared, “with God, nothing shall be impossible.” (Luke 1: 37, KJV). Anyone who says more than this is speaking without knowledge. If they declare our doctrine on the subject to be anything beyond what is written in the scriptures, they do so incorrectly.

    Regarding creation of the earth (not the universe): yes, we believe matter is not created or destroyed, but rather organized or unorganized. Therefore, we believe that God formed the earth from already existing matter.

    Thank you Nicole for being patient with me.  I can’t say it makes sense to me, but God bless, I wish you well.

    • #54
  25. Nicole Reed Inactive
    Nicole Reed
    @NicoleReed

    Manny (View Comment):

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Nicole Reed (View Comment):
    As to the conception of Jesus Christ, we do not know the details. Only Mary knows that. We only know what is written in the scriptures, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, KJV).

    I would say that makes it clear it’s the Holy Ghost that does the conception but if you don’t believe in the Trinity then I can see how it could be open to interpretation. So you don’t believe God the Father as a man physically impregnated Mary?

    I also found this on Wikipedia:

    According to Mormon scripture, the Earth’s creation was not ex nihilo, but organized from existing matter.

    Is that true? There was existing matter before God created the universe? Who would have created the existing matter?

    Once again, the only person who knows the details of Jesus’ conception is Mary, His mother. It is not for any of the rest of us to speculate on the how. The scriptures are clear. Mary was a virgin. And the angel, Gabriel, declared, “with God, nothing shall be impossible.” (Luke 1: 37, KJV). Anyone who says more than this is speaking without knowledge. If they declare our doctrine on the subject to be anything beyond what is written in the scriptures, they do so incorrectly.

    Regarding creation of the earth (not the universe): yes, we believe matter is not created or destroyed, but rather organized or unorganized. Therefore, we believe that God formed the earth from already existing matter.

    Thank you Nicole for being patient with me. I can’t say it makes sense to me, but God bless, I wish you well.

    And May God bless you as well, my friend.

    • #55
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