If Ukraine Wins, Who Loses?

 

There’s the obvious answers – Putin, the image of Russian might, the Duginist dream of solidifying Russian control over its insolent children. 

Who else? The Russian Orthodox Church, for declaring this a holy war? Xi, for his association with a loser whose actions renewed Taiwanese determination to stave off an invasion? The countries that have been buying Russian military gear and now have a rep, however justified, for buying junk? US pundits who backed Russia’s invasion? Renewable energy advocates, suddenly on the back foot because nuclear is a better option than Russian gas? US intelligence agencies that failed to figure out how the Russian forces are ancient and hollowed out by corruption?

You could also note who else wins: the West, for one. Superior armaments and tech, better logistics, the products of a more energetic and innovative culture. I suspect there’s a non-insubstantial intersection between those who are comfy with Russian control of Ukraine and those who would be irritated by a Western win, because the West is decadent and subject to rule from our Davos overlords, and ought not to prevail until it is overhauled and remade. 

This is not a thread about whether Ukraine will win, or what victory looks like. Just a question about what shakes out when it is apparent to all that Russia could not prevail. 

Published in General
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 1265 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.  

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    • #121
  2. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Boris Johnson addresses Ukraine parliament – YouTube

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s speech to the Ukraine parliament.

     

    • #122
  3. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Hang On (View Comment):

    BTW, Croatia is blocking Sweden and Finland from joining Nato. For its own ethnic reasons wrt Bosnia.

    There’s always this little prodedural ‘out’ that accompanies grand announcements like ‘NATO membership open to Ukraine’ or whatever they said.  They’re good that way, Europe and NATO…

    • #123
  4. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    BTW, Croatia is blocking Sweden and Finland from joining Nato. For its own ethnic reasons wrt Bosnia.

    There’s always this little prodedural ‘out’ that accompanies grand announcements like ‘NATO membership open to Ukraine’ or whatever they said. They’re good that way, Europe and NATO…

    Zelensky has said that he thinks the best model for Ukraine going forward is Israel, a nation that is constantly under threat from its neighbors and is determined to use its military to fight its enemies.  

    I think the Russian aggression against Ukraine has demonstrated that pacifism and appeasement don’t work.  Weakness is provocative.  

    • #124
  5. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    “You probe with bayonets: If you find mush, you push.  If you find steel, you withdraw.” – Vladimir Lenin

    • #125
  6. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    I don’t need anyone to explain to me why the United States has an interest in this war.

    I do.

    Drew, Drew, Drew, sweet, naive Drew…

    Which US interests were served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria (just for eg)?

    The interests which make money from war – winning or losing is irrelevant.  So long as they are able to sell stuff, paid for by nervous neighbours, or by the US taxpayers themselves.

    The twenty year Afghan caper just ended. Albeit spectacularly, with a truly vast amount of stuff to replace. (kaching!)

    You have to have known there was a new, relatively low tech, war in the making?  I mean you’re getting the bill for it, surely they mentioned something?

     

    • #126
  7. DrewInWisconsin, Oik! Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik!
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    • #127
  8. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zelensky has said that he thinks the best model for Ukraine going forward is Israel, a nation that is constantly under threat from its neighbors and is determined to use its military to fight its enemies.

    If Zelensky is delusional enough to think that Ukraine can be a version of Israel…

    Otoh, sure, why not? An unsinkable battle ship in the middle of Eastern Europe.  What could go wrong?

    I think the Russian aggression against Ukraine has demonstrated that pacifism and appeasement don’t work. Weakness is provocative.

    That’s certainly the lesson Russia has drawn from the Minsk Agreements and NATO expansion.

    • #128
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    • #129
  10. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    I don’t need anyone to explain to me why the United States has an interest in this war.

    I do.

    Drew, Drew, Drew, sweet, naive Drew…

    Which US interests were served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria (just for eg)?

    Iraq was a menace to the United States for decades prior to the US led invasion of Iraq.

    Afghanistan was the country that hosted the 9-11 terrorists. 

    US and European intervention in Libya was in reaction to the Libyan leader’s intention to slaughter people.  So, that should be viewed as a humanitarian intervention that went bad.

    Syria could also be viewed as an intervention to deter the use of chemical weapons.  Thus, Obama’s “red line,” which Obama ultimately did not enforce and Trump’s missile strikes on Syria.  

    • #130
  11. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    I don’t need anyone to explain to me why the United States has an interest in this war.

    I do.

    Drew, Drew, Drew, sweet, naive Drew…

    Which US interests were served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria (just for eg)?

    Iraq was a menace to the United States for decades prior to the US led invasion of Iraq.

    Afghanistan was the country that hosted the 9-11 terrorists.

    US and European intervention in Libya was in reaction to the Libyan leader’s intention to slaughter people. So, that should be viewed as a humanitarian intervention that went bad.

    Syria could also be viewed as an intervention to deter the use of chemical weapons. Thus, Obama’s “red line,” which Obama ultimately did not enforce and Trump’s missile strikes on Syria.

    Sure. (kaching!)

    • #131
  12. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    It’s actually the Finns and the Swedes that have looked at what Putin is doing in Ukraine and deciding that they would rather their nations of 6 million people (Finland) and 10 million people (Sweden) form a military alliance with other liberal democracies as a deterrent to Putin.  

    If you were a citizen of Finland or Sweden, wouldn’t you want to join NATO?  

    • #132
  13. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    In Finland, support for joining NATO was always in the low 20 percent.  But then Russia invaded Ukraine and now about 60 percent of the people of Finland want to join NATO.  

    Sometimes dramatic events change peoples’ worldview.  

    Remember how President Jimmy Carter said that he changed his opinion of the Soviet Union after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan?  Well, the Russian invasion of Ukraine has had a huge impact on the thinking of many Europeans, not just the leaders, but public opinion as well.  

    In German the parliament voted overwhelmingly to provide weapons to Ukraine.  Prior to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, Germany (post World War II) had never been willing to provide weapons to another nation, outside of NATO, engaged in a war.  

    That policy evaporated within a week of Putin’s invasion.  

    • #133
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    It’s actually the Finns and the Swedes that have looked at what Putin is doing in Ukraine and deciding that they would rather their nations of 6 million people (Finland) and 10 million people (Sweden) form a military alliance with other liberal democracies as a deterrent to Putin.

    If you were a citizen of Finland or Sweden, wouldn’t you want to join NATO?

    I’d certainly be tempted.  But look what happened to the people of Ukraine  when Ukraine wanted to join NATO.  I might consider whether there were other options to get security. (There might not be, but I’d have a think about it.)

    • #134
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    It’s actually the Finns and the Swedes that have looked at what Putin is doing in Ukraine and deciding that they would rather their nations of 6 million people (Finland) and 10 million people (Sweden) form a military alliance with other liberal democracies as a deterrent to Putin.

    If you were a citizen of Finland or Sweden, wouldn’t you want to join NATO?

    I’d certainly be tempted. But look what happened to the people of Ukraine when Ukraine wanted to join NATO. I might consider whether there were other options to get security. (There might not be, but I’d have a think about it.)

    If nothing else, you might want to hold off while Biden is president.

    • #135
  16. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    It’s actually the Finns and the Swedes that have looked at what Putin is doing in Ukraine and deciding that they would rather their nations of 6 million people (Finland) and 10 million people (Sweden) form a military alliance with other liberal democracies as a deterrent to Putin.

    If you were a citizen of Finland or Sweden, wouldn’t you want to join NATO?

    I’d certainly be tempted. But look what happened to the people of Ukraine when Ukraine wanted to join NATO. I might consider whether there were other options to get security. (There might not be, but I’d have a think about it.)

    Well, Ukraine wanted to join NATO.  Yes.

    But the people of Sweden and Finland probably have noticed that Russia has not attacked a country that has already joined NATO.  So, there could be some nerves during the period between the application to join NATO and acceptance into NATO (which could be about a year, maybe).  

    But the United States has already provided Sweden (and probably Finland) a security guarantee during the transition period.  

    And also, not being part of NATO doesn’t persuade Putin to take a kindly approach to your country either, as the invasion of Ukraine has demonstrated.  Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.  Ukraine was not part of NATO nor part of the EU.  

    They were left alone and that made Putin think that Ukraine would be an easy victim. 

    • #136
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    From the Guardian:

    Is escalation in Ukraine part of the US strategy?

    In the spring of Russia’s war on Ukraine…The US Congress has passed the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022 to expedite aid to Ukraine – just as Franklin D Roosevelt did, under the Lend-Lease Act, to the British empire, China and Greece in March 1941.

    The sums of money being contemplated in Washington are enormous – a total of $47bn, the equivalent of one third of Ukraine’s prewar GDP. If it is approved by Congress, on top of other western aid, it will mean that we are financing nothing less than a total war.

    Lend-Lease was a wartime intervention…..What made this so extraordinary is that at the moment the Lend-Lease programme was launched in March 1941, the US was not in the war….Presumably, the narrative is sustained by the promise that a good war fought against an evil regime will be won through the generous sponsorship of the United States…

    Both friends and critics of FDR have always insisted that provoking a war with Nazi Germany was the hidden agenda of Lend-Lease….

    After the announcement of central bank sanctions on 28 February, Putin rattled his nuclear sabre. If Biden signs a giant Lend-Lease-style aid package into law, who can tell how the Russian president will react? Further questions arise: will Ukraine be given weapons only to expel Putin’s army? Or will we equip Kyiv to strike at Russia itself?

    • #137
  18. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    From the Guardian:

    Is escalation in Ukraine part of the US strategy?

    In the spring of Russia’s war on Ukraine…The US Congress has passed the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022 to expedite aid to Ukraine – just as Franklin D Roosevelt did, under the Lend-Lease Act, to the British empire, China and Greece in March 1941.

    The sums of money being contemplated in Washington are enormous – a total of $47bn, the equivalent of one third of Ukraine’s prewar GDP. If it is approved by Congress, on top of other western aid, it will mean that we are financing nothing less than a total war.

    Lend-Lease was a wartime intervention…..What made this so extraordinary is that at the moment the Lend-Lease programme was launched in March 1941, the US was not in the war….Presumably, the narrative is sustained by the promise that a good war fought against an evil regime will be won through the generous sponsorship of the United States…

    Both friends and critics of FDR have always insisted that provoking a war with Nazi Germany was the hidden agenda of Lend-Lease….

    After the announcement of central bank sanctions on 28 February, Putin rattled his nuclear sabre. If Biden signs a giant Lend-Lease-style aid package into law, who can tell how the Russian president will react? Further questions arise: will Ukraine be given weapons only to expel Putin’s army? Or will we equip Kyiv to strike at Russia itself?

    I think the United States (and I think this is bi-partisan) policy is to escalate, to dramatically step up military aid to Ukraine and assist Ukraine in decimating Putin’s military.  

    Yes. 

    Since I am not a pacifist, I wholeheartedly support the new policy.  Victory over Putin !

    • #138
  19. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    They were left alone and that made Putin think that Ukraine would be an easy victim. 

    Ukraine was never really ‘out of play’.  No formal NATO membership, but a colour revolution or so later the East tried to secede with the consequence of an ongoing war since 2014 that’s left 14,0000 civilisans dead (mostly in the secessionist repoublics, and at the hand of the Ukrainian army), every major Ukrainian opposition party banned, opposition allied radio stations banned and the leader of the opposition under house arrest for treason.  All with no substantively negative response from the US or the West and all before Russia invaded (this last time, to be fair).

    Specifically – setting up Western military ‘training’ bases in Ukraine while Ukraine didn’t join NATO really pushed the line for Russia, imho.  Russia itself (both as Russia and as the successor state to the USSR) has experience with being the easy victim – when Gorbachev opened up politics before opening up the economy and the people died and suffered with the economic collapse and restructuring  during which (of course) the stock market soared and a lot of people (Russian and Western) made a lot of money.  It’s easy to recognise that the Baltics’ (for eg) experience with Russia shapes their perceptions and responses.  But that’s also the case with Russia’s experience with the West. Fair?

    • #139
  20. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik! (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Sweden has confirmed that the United States has given Sweden security assurances if Sweden applies for NATO membership.

    Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde:

    “Naturally, I’m not going to go into any details, but I feel very sure that now we have an American assurance”

    Well, if you’re going to have another quagmire, seem like Sweden would be a nice place to have it.

    This is the mark of a world super power! You select your next quagmire based on shopping and vacation options.

    It’s actually the Finns and the Swedes that have looked at what Putin is doing in Ukraine and deciding that they would rather their nations of 6 million people (Finland) and 10 million people (Sweden) form a military alliance with other liberal democracies as a deterrent to Putin.

    If you were a citizen of Finland or Sweden, wouldn’t you want to join NATO?

    I’d certainly be tempted. But look what happened to the people of Ukraine when Ukraine wanted to join NATO. I might consider whether there were other options to get security. (There might not be, but I’d have a think about it.)

    It sounds like we’ve already guaranteed their security if they apply, at least according to Sweden’s Defense Minister.

    • #140
  21. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Percival (View Comment):
    It sounds like we’ve already guaranteed their security if they apply, at least according to Sweden’s Defense Minister.

    You already guaranteed Ukraine’s security when they gave up their nukes (that would be according to Ukraine’s Defense Minister maybe?) and where are we now?

    • #141
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Oik! Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik!
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I think the United States (and I think this is bi-partisan) policy is to escalate, to dramatically step up military aid to Ukraine and assist Ukraine in decimating Putin’s military.

    Yes, sadly it is bipartisan. Our elected officials don’t give a rat’s ass about America. To quote the great Larry Norman, “We are far across the ocean in a war that’s not our own. And while we’re winning theirs, we’re going to lose the one at home.”

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Victory over Putin !

    At what cost to America?

    • #142
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):
    If nothing else, you might want to hold off while Biden is president.

    I actually really like how Trump is all ‘let’s make a deal!’ about this. It seems a much healthier response for the US than not trying to make a deal. jmho. (And also Noam Chomsky. I had to pinch myself when I saw Chomsky on Trump re Ukraine.)

    • #143
  24. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    They were left alone and that made Putin think that Ukraine would be an easy victim.

    Ukraine was never really ‘out of play’. No formal NATO membership, but a colour revolution or so later the East tried to secede with the consequence of an ongoing war since 2014 that’s left 14,0000 civilisans dead (mostly in the secessionist repoublics, and at the hand of the Ukrainian army), every major Ukrainian opposition party banned, opposition allied radio stations banned and the leader of the opposition under house arrest for treason. All with no substantively negative response from the US or the West and all before Russia invaded (this last time, to be fair).

    Ukraine has looked West, towards Europe and East, towards Russia and generally speaking, Ukraine has found Europe more attractive.  

    So, Ukraine has decided that it wanted to be part of the European Union and NATO.  

    This isn’t surprising, really.  The attitude in Ukraine is probably very similar to the attitude within Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. 

    These people see Russia as a harmful country.  They might hope that Russia will one day move away from totalitarianism/authoritarianism.  But the Russia that actually exists is quite different from the Russia that Lativa, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine hope for.  

    So, they look to the West for support and assistance.  After all, if you are a nation of 44 million people (Ukraine) or 2 million (Latvia), you have to figure out how you are going to defend yourself against a country like Russia, with its population of 144 million and a huge nuclear stockpile.

    One option is to look to the nuclear powers that are liberal democracies: United Kingdom, France and the United States and also the liberal democracies that are not nuclear powers but will provide other types of support.  

    So, I think Ukraine was in a bind.  The Ukrainians wanted to join the world of freedom and representative democracy and not be part of the world of brutal dictatorships like Putin and Kim Jong-Un and Xi Jinping.  

    But it’s like in the Godfather movie: “Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in.”

    • #144
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    But it’s like in the Godfather movie: “Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in.”

    On this, the day of my daughter’s wedding…

    Finnlandisation came with a big cost to Finnland – the loss of a lot of land after a very bitterly faught war – but it also lasted a long time.  NATO didn’t make Finnland safe, Finnland made Finnland safe.

     

    • #145
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    But it’s like in the Godfather movie: “Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in.”

    On this, the day of my daughter’s wedding…

    Finnlandisation came with a big cost to Finnland – the loss of a lot of land after a very bitterly faught war – but it also lasted a long time. NATO didn’t make Finnland safe, Finnland made Finnland safe.

     

    That’s right.  But if you live in a nation of 6 million people (Finland) and don’t have nuclear weapons, trying to defend yourself against Russia, a nation of 144 million people and a huge nuclear stockpile, the idea of hooking up with the nuclear powers of France, United Kingdom and the United States along with Norway, Denmark, Spain, Italy, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.  Well, it starts to sound attractive as you watch Ukrainian civilians get slaughtered by Russian missiles.

    • #146
  27. DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax)
    @DonG

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    We do have an agreement: the Budapest Memorandum.

    Not a treaty. Not enforceable.

    Clinton promised something he could not and could not deliver.   He is good at making promises he can’t keep.  I suspect his wife would know. 

    Clinton made a personal promise not to invade Ukraine.  I don’t know if he even kept it.

    • #147
  28. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    But it’s like in the Godfather movie: “Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in.”

    On this, the day of my daughter’s wedding…

    Finnlandisation came with a big cost to Finnland – the loss of a lot of land after a very bitterly faught war – but it also lasted a long time. NATO didn’t make Finnland safe, Finnland made Finnland safe.

     

    Came with a big cost? Finland lost that land as a consequence of that war. “Finlandization” didn’t occur until later, and was the consequence of being a small country bordering an untrustworthy neighbor.

    • #148
  29. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s speech to the Ukraine parliament.

    That was brilliant. It described the situation completely. 

    Thank you. 

    • #149
  30. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    BTW, Croatia is blocking Sweden and Finland from joining Nato. For its own ethnic reasons wrt Bosnia.

    There’s always this little prodedural ‘out’ that accompanies grand announcements like ‘NATO membership open to Ukraine’ or whatever they said. They’re good that way, Europe and NATO…

    Zelensky has said that he thinks the best model for Ukraine going forward is Israel, a nation that is constantly under threat from its neighbors and is determined to use its military to fight its enemies.

    I think the Russian aggression against Ukraine has demonstrated that pacifism and appeasement don’t work. Weakness is provocative.

    Yup. I have seen this parallel with Israel since this started. 

    I think Israel is probably an inspiration to Ukraine. 

    • #150
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.